Opinions on the dragons?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It was unlikely that the Dornish will take back Dorne after the Conquest of Dorne but it did happened. Being unlikely means nothing the danger in order to eliminate the danger you will have to go full Tywin on them.

I mean tbf, I think we're discussing the wrong issue.

Should Dany have executed all the masters? Yes, definitely, both in Astapor and in Meereen.

Should she have left such vague ass instructions, and make the age limit for the slaughter as low as 12? Definitely not, that's a war crime even by Westerosi standards.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The soldiers and overseers were armed.  Granted, we don’t know if the slavers and masters were armed.

Especially their 13 year old sons. They were definitely a danger.

And heck, even if they were armed, maybe give them a chance to surrender, as I imagine the job of guarding and punishing slaves isn't exactly the most rewarding.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Especially their 13 year old sons. They were definitely a danger.

And heck, even if they were armed, maybe give them a chance to surrender, as I imagine the job of guarding and punishing slaves isn't exactly the most rewarding.

TBH, I don’t think she should have mentioned ages at all.  Just kill the Good Masters, the Slavers, the soldiers and the overseers.

[Dracul's Daughter]

6 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

300-283=17.

My bad.Didn't see it.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Dracul's Daughter said:

7 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

300-283=17.

My bad.Didn't see it.

Tbf, given that this was early 300, and in AGOT (which is in 298) Jon says he's 14, he was more than likely actually 16 when elected.

[Dracul's Daughter]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

TBH, I don’t think she should have mentioned ages at all.  Just kill the Good Masters, the Slavers, the soldiers and the overseers.

That's what I was thinking too.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

TBH, I don’t think she should have mentioned ages at all.  Just kill the Good Masters, the Slavers, the soldiers and the overseers.

I agree, then the Unsullied would have known their targets, not think "wait does she want us to kill all free 13 year olds?"

As I said, the slaughter of the masters would be justified and probably a good idea, it's the children part that gets weird.

[Daeron the Daring]

@Dracul's Daughter, see? She doesn't even bother answering me, once he can't and realises what bullshit she's been talking about.

Anyway. You were right about Jon's age. He was elected Lord Commander in 299 AC, when he wasn't 16 yet, but only 15. Then he got slaughtered in 300 AC, at the age of 16.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

35 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm not excusing the murder of children, the death of Hazzea or the torture of the wine merchant's daughters. But you can't equate Dany to the masters. By doing so you are equating no slavery and a few deaths in war with systemic slavery and systemic murder. And again, if you are placed in a position in which you have to chose between keeping things as they are or acting and changing them, and you decide to do neither, you are keeping things as they are, so, you would be choosing to keep the slavery system.

Her actions are not as evil as those of the Masters but they were not good either. Greater, lesser or the same size is semantics. I don’t want to choose the life of one child instead of the life of another child before I give them the chance to change. No matter if we like it or not for the people there slavery was a part of their culture. Choosing to kill children because of their culture and they don’t know better is evil.

20 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean tbf, I think we're discussing the wrong issue.

Should Dany have executed all the masters? Yes, definitely, both in Astapor and in Meereen.

Should she have left such vague ass instructions, and make the age limit for the slaughter as low as 12? Definitely not, that's a war crime even by Westerosi standards.

That is what I am saying. If you have to kill someone kill the adults and give the children the chance to choose their life and change.

12 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Tbf, given that this was early 300, and in AGOT (which is in 298) Jon says he's 14, he was more than likely actually 16 when elected.

 Dalla died in 300 and after that Jon was elected so he was 16ish to 17. An adult by Westerosi standards. That is what I read.

Quote

 

Jon Snow
Birth
Jon Snow is fourteen years old when the direwolves are found[11] and during the welcoming feast in Winterfell[146]. Both events occur in 298 AC. After he has turned fifteen, Tyrion Lannister and Yoren start going south. When Yoren arrives at King's Landing, Arya has just witnessed a conversation between Varys and Illyrio Mopatis, concerning, amongst others, Margaery Tyrell, who is mentioned to still be fourteen years old (see Margaery Tyrell) This means that this event still takes place in 298 AC, since it is known that Margaery is fourteen turning fifteen in 298 AC). This means that Jon is fourteen turning fifteen in 298 AC, meaning that he was born in 283 AC.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages_(Continued)#Jon_Snow

 

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Her actions are not as evil as those of the Masters but they were not good either. Greater, lesser or the same size is semantics. I don’t want to choose the life of one child instead of the life of another child before I give them the chance to change. No matter if we like it or not for the people there slavery was a part of their culture. Choosing to kill children because of their culture and they don’t know better is evil

Yo, Yennifer. Stop acting like Geralt. Its not semantics, its a nation of vile slavery thats been thriving for thousands of years. Shit needs to stop by any means necessary

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Her actions are not as evil as those of the Masters but they were not good either. Greater, lesser or the same size is semantics. I don’t want to choose the life of one child instead of the life of another child before I give them the chance to change. No matter if we like it or not for the people there slavery was a part of their culture. Choosing to kill children because of their culture and they don’t know better is evil.

That is what I am saying. If you have to kill someone kill the adults and give the children the chance to choose their life and change.

That is what I read. Dalla died in 300 and after that Jon was elected so he was 16ish to 17. An adult by Westerosi standards.

 

In real life slavery, was part of the culture of Les Grands Blancs but I would find it hard to condemn L’Ouverture and Dessalines for the treatment they meted out to them, horrible as it was;  far worse than anything that Dany dished out.  I think it would be wrong to argue for moral equivalence in that kind of situation.

[Dracul's Daughter]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I agree, then the Unsullied would have known their targets, not think "wait does she want us to kill all free 13 year olds?"

As I said, the slaughter of the masters would be justified and probably a good idea, it's the children part that gets weird.

Tbf is kinda wierd and it puzzles me.Judging by her reaction to the 163 crucified children,the death of Hazzea and not hurting the master's children that she has as hostages,she definitely does not want children to be hurt.So her "but harm no child under 12" is an estimation or she does not consider boys beyond that age as children,given that she got pregnant at 14 and sacked Meeren at 15?

[CamiloRP]

21 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Her actions are not as evil as those of the Masters but they were not good either. Greater, lesser or the same size is semantics. I don’t want to choose the life of one child instead of the life of another child before I give them the chance to change. No matter if we like it or not for the people there slavery was a part of their culture. Choosing to kill children because of their culture and they don’t know better is evil.

By not choosing you are choosing to uphold slavery tho.

And even then, it's not even comparable, you can't equate the horrors of a one time war with a system built on torture, rape and murder. For every innocent Dany killed the Masters would have killed ten if things continued as usual and tortured a thousand, and not even a retribution, just because that's how slavery works.so you're not only choosing, you're choosing the clear bad side.

[Daeron the Daring]

11 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

By not choosing you are choosing to uphold slavery tho.

And even then, it's not even comparable, you can't equate the horrors of a one time war with a system built on torture, rape and murder. For every innocent Dany killed the Masters would have killed ten if things continued as usual and tortured a thousand, and not even a retribution, just because that's how slavery works.so you're not only choosing, you're choosing the clear bad side.

yEa, BuT eViL iS eViL.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

12 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And even then, it's not even comparable, you can't equate the horrors of a one time war with a system built on torture, rape and murder. For every innocent Dany killed the Masters would have killed ten if things continued as usual and tortured a thousand, and not even a retribution, just because that's how slavery works.so you're not only choosing, you're choosing the clear bad side.

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

yEa, BuT eViL iS eViL.

I mean fundamentally the question is, should Dany be put on a higher standard of judgement due to her claim of being a good guy. Yes, obviously nothing Dany could even imagine in her most twisted fantasies will even come close to the shit the slavers did, but she is a hero, right? Shouldn't she be put to a higher morel standard judging her actions on their own, and  not just compared to the actions of evil men?

[Dracul's Daughter]

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean fundamentally the question is, should Dany be put on a higher standard of judgement due to her claim of being a good guy. Yes, obviously nothing Dany could even imagine in her most twisted fantasies will even come close to the shit the slavers did, but she is a hero, right? Shouldn't she be put to a higher morel standard judging her actions on their own, and  not just compared to the actions of evil men?

I agree that she should own her shit and tbf she reflects on her decisions and actions.

[Daeron the Daring]

17 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean fundamentally the question is, should Dany be put on a higher standard of judgement due to her claim of being a good guy. Yes, obviously nothing Dany could even imagine in her most twisted fantasies will even come close to the shit the slavers did, but she is a hero, right? Shouldn't she be put to a higher morel standard judging her actions on their own, and  not just compared to the actions of evil men?

It's not her claiming to be a good guy what makes her the better one. It's his standards and actual acts. 

By the standard of "evil is evil", isn't murder evil, whether it's the murder of an adult or a 12 year old armed boy? Doesn't then a liar deserve the same fate that Ramsay Bolton does? I'll ask it differently: Why should Ramsay Bolton be executed or killed for his actions, if a simple liar isn't? Simply because evil is evil. Or at least this is what @Lilac & Gooseberries claims, but ignores his ideological direction when it's not Daenerys Targaryen?

I am just saying that she's not right about it. The worst among us deserve the worst, equal threatment is an illusion, and as CamiloRP pointed out, supporting none because both are evil makes her choose the current one, the slavers.

[James West]

A hero must have her mount.  They belong to Dany.  So yeah, to me, the dragons are virtuous.  I like them a lot.  They will bring order back to Westeros and set things right.  The conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks, and the Baratheon's lack of ability to manage, ruined Westeros.  It is time for Dany to take back her family's kingdom and rule.  The dragons will help make this happen.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

19 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I am just saying that she's not right about it. The worst among us deserve the worst, equal threatment is an illusion, and as CamiloRP pointed out, supporting none because both are evil makes her choose the current one, the slavers.

Oh no, I agree, and the choice between them is not really a choice, I'm talking less about choosing and more about condemning Dany for her shitty deeds.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 minutes ago, James West said:

A hero must have her mount.  They belong to Dany.  So yeah, to me, the dragons are virtuous.  I like them a lot.  They will bring order back to Westeros and set things right.  The conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks, and the Baratheon's lack of ability to manage, ruined Westeros.  It is time for Dany to take back her family's kingdom and rule.  The dragons will help make this happen.

Especially given their incredible life and vigor.