Opinions on the dragons?

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean isn't that kinda what Viserion and Rhaegal are doing, chilling out, maybe occasionally eating a slaver or two?

ha, I think they're eating people (and heads). They got their first taste of human flesh now. Barristan doubts they'll stick to slavers. They should aspire to be more like Silverwing, just flew off to a lake and never bothered anyone. Dany needs to deal with her fire monkeys.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany needs to deal with her fire monkeys.

But... But... dragunz so cool, they so full of life and vigor, they the best!!

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

But... But... dragunz so cool, they so full of life and vigor, they the best!!

I think they'll need plenty of green tea, after what they've been eating at the start of TWOW.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, SeanF said:

I think they'll need plenty of green tea, after what they've been eating at the start of TWOW.

Jokes aside, I wonder if this is going to be relevant. Viserion and Rhaegal seemed to have acquired a taste for human flesh. Now as we debated previously, Dany is probably not going to be the most popular of rulers, but maybe one of the will pull a Hazzea, further ruining their reputation?

Maybe it's be a moment showing Dany's change since ADWD, with her now covering it up instead of acknowledging it and taking action?

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Jokes aside, I wonder if this is going to be relevant. Viserion and Rhaegal seemed to have acquired a taste for human flesh. Now as we debated previously, Dany is probably not going to be the most popular of rulers, but maybe one of the will pull a Hazzea, further ruining their reputation?

Maybe it's be a moment showing Dany's change since ADWD, with her now covering it up instead of acknowledging it and taking action?

From a dragon's point of view, I imagine that meat is meat. Drogon may or may not have eaten Hazzea, but he seems quite content to eat horses.

This is expressed most beautifully during the conversation between Kalo, a dragon, and Hest Finbok, a complete idiot, in Robyn Hobb's Rainwild's Chronicles.  Finbok thinks he can tame a dragon like a dog.  He runs through the names he will give his dragon, settling on Blue Glory.  Kalo pretends to be interested, and says he has a name in mind for him, too.  Hest suggests names like Blue Rider, Glory's Master.  

Kalo replies, "No.  Meat."

[CamiloRP]

20 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean fundamentally the question is, should Dany be put on a higher standard of judgement due to her claim of being a good guy. Yes, obviously nothing Dany could even imagine in her most twisted fantasies will even come close to the shit the slavers did, but she is a hero, right? Shouldn't she be put to a higher morel standard judging her actions on their own, and  not just compared to the actions of evil men?

 

19 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I really cannot see how what I am saying is that outlandish and weird. I am not saying that the slavers in general should be left unpunished to continue. I am saying if killings need to happen kill the adults and spare the kids. That’s all.

I don’t know about this I have to read more to be able to have an opinion.

Punish the adults and spare the kids. That’s all. Change the society in order to save the future. Killing everyone gets you in a never ending cycle of violence.

 

I'm not saying 'don't judge Dany' please do, she did some awful shit, all I'm saying is that there's no comparison between her and the slaver's and not chosing either side because of her actions would be a pirvimeged and evil move in favor of the slavers.

[CamiloRP]

17 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

No, Jon gets an exception because he's fighting the literal apocalypse. Men, women, and children, it hardly matters against the White Walkers, don't you think?

Are the Others worse than the slavers tho? All they did was kill a couple hundred people.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

all I'm saying is that there's no comparison between her and the slaver's and not chosing either side because of her actions would be a pirvimeged and evil move in favor of the slavers.

And as I said, I agree 100%. For a small comparison, here in Romania, all political parties are slightly corrupt, but there's a few reformists, and then there's the Communist Mob party. And there are some people (actually a lot of people) that refuse to vote, not realizing that in doing so they support the greater evil. I think the same applies here. Sure Dany has flaws, but the choice between her and the slavers shouldn't be a choice.

4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Are the Others worse than the slavers tho? All they did was kill a couple hundred people.

A couple of hundred thousands.

All that remains of Mance's host are the men under Tormund, the Weeper and Mother Mole. That's like 20k, out of the original 100k+.

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

I'm not saying 'don't judge Dany' please do, she did some awful shit, all I'm saying is that there's no comparison between her and the slaver's and not chosing either side because of her actions would be a pirvimeged and evil move in favor of the slavers.

Martin is often accused of making the slavers cartoonishly evil.  From what I've now read, about the Ottoman empire, Rome, or the Sugar Colonies, I think he might be even pulling his punches. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

From what I've now read, about the Ottoman empire, Rome, or the Sugar Colonies, I think he might be even pulling his punches. 

Yes and no. The slavers are cartoonishly evil, because while they are usually not as cruel as the worst examples, they are often needlessly cruel, to the point that it's counterproductive. Take the fights to the death. The Romans would frown at the waste of perfectly good fighting slaves.

Or the children.

The Masters are cartoonishly evil, because they do evil stuff just for the sake of being evil.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes and no. The slavers are cartoonishly evil, because while they are usually not as cruel as the worst examples, they are often needlessly cruel, to the point that it's counterproductive. Take the fights to the death. The Romans would frown at the waste of perfectly good fighting slaves.

Or the children.

The Masters are cartoonishly evil, because they do evil stuff just for the sake of being evil.

Yes, Gladiators could be made to fight to the death, but usually, that would be thought a waste.  OTOH, we are spared descriptions of anything like the "lunchtime entertainments" that Martial and Juvenal described. Nor do we get anyone throwing his slaves to conger eels.

[CamiloRP]

15 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And as I said, I agree 100%. For a small comparison, here in Romania, all political parties are slightly corrupt, but there's a few reformists, and then there's the Communist Mob party. And there are some people (actually a lot of people) that refuse to vote, not realizing that in doing so they support the greater evil. I think the same applies here. Sure Dany has flaws, but the choice between her and the slavers shouldn't be a choice.

Yeah, the second to last election in my country was the same, the winner, our, luckily former, president, has ties to actual genocidal dictators, and we have compulsory voting, yet there where a bunch of idiots trying to convince people to cast blank votes.

 

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A couple of hundred thousands.

All that remains of Mance's host are the men under Tormund, the Weeper and Mother Mole. That's like 20k, out of the original 100k+.

I don't know if that's all WW tho, Varamyr didn't die because of them, and many of them could've gotten lost and such, but even if it where so, which is likely, killing tens of thousands isn't more evil than a system based on torture, rape and murder, does SB cause ten thousand deaths in a year? Or two? Or five? Eventually there's more, and add up all the rape and torture.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't know if that's all WW tho, Varamyr didn't die because of them, and many of them could've gotten lost and such, but even if it where so, which is likely, killing tens of thousands isn't more evil than a system based on torture, rape and murder, does SB cause ten thousand deaths in a year? Or two? Or five? Eventually there's more, and add up all the rape and torture.

Maybe not right now, but in terms of the bigger threat, I think it's obvious who's the Earth ending existential danger, don't you think?

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

I don't know if that's all WW tho, Varamyr didn't die because of them, and many of them could've gotten lost and such, but even if it where so, which is likely, killing tens of thousands isn't more evil than a system based on torture, rape and murder, does SB cause ten thousand deaths in a year? Or two? Or five? Eventually there's more, and add up all the rape and torture.

If a couple of thousand Unsullied graduate each year at Astapor, that would be 6,000 child deaths per year.  And, Ser Jorah made the charming suggestion of selling children into brothels in Yunkai and Meereen, as most had perished of fever, and the price had increased. But, that's the tip of the iceberg.  One can assume - based on real life - that deaths of slaves comfortably outnumber births in Slavers Bay, and across Essos generally, and fresh slaves have constantly to be captured to maintain the supply.  The main sources of supply seem to be Lhazareen, beaten Dothraki, people who fall into debt, and people captured on the high seas, who can't ransom themselves.

[El Guapo]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not really. Does Drogon fly her back to Meereen?

I do agree she is gaining control over him, however that control only seems to exist while Dany is physically around.

Nope. Because Meereen is not where Dany is supposed to be and once Dany realizes that Drogon returns to her. It is all on her last chapter of ADWD.  It is also not a coincidence that Drogon appeared at Daznak's pit at the very moment that Dany had enough of her floppy ears. Either.  

[CamiloRP]

25 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Maybe not right now, but in terms of the bigger threat, I think it's obvious who's the Earth ending existential danger, don't you think?

Dunno, we don't know their goal, based insane storiesit seems like they want to kill all humans just 'cause, but GRRM doesn't write that, and the stories were written by the humans thousands of years ago (in fact the weren't even written) so they are likely exaggerated to make the others look worse. If the Others end up being just creatures the humans hate bc of prejudice and they hate the humans just because of prejudice, they can be dealt with without violence. But the slaver's can't be dealt with without violence.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Nope. Because Meereen is not where Dany is supposed to be and once Dany realizes that Drogon returns to her. It is all on her last chapter of ADWD.  It is also not a coincidence that Drogon appeared at Daznak's pit at the very moment that Dany had enough of her floppy ears. Either.  

And Drogon is aware of all that how? Beyond the fact that the author needs it so Dany's story can make thematic sense?

I mean what you say is definitely true about what Dany needed, but it's what she needed for her character ark, something Drogon cannot know. In the story, he's just out of Dany's complete control.

[CamiloRP]

25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If a couple of thousand Unsullied graduate each year at Astapor, that would be 6,000 child deaths per year.  And, Ser Jorah made the charming suggestion of selling children into brothels in Yunkai and Meereen, as most had perished of fever, and the price had increased. But, that's the tip of the iceberg.  One can assume - based on real life - that deaths of slaves comfortably outnumber births in Slavers Bay, and across Essos generally, and fresh slaves have constantly to be captured to maintain the supply.  The main sources of supply seem to be Lhazareen, beaten Dothraki, people who fall into debt, and people captured on the high seas, who can't ransom themselves.

So yeah, in just 10 years there would be 60k human deaths (or 80k, if they produce 2k unsullied a year)  20k dog deaths an incalculable rspe and torture.

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany has more responsibilities because she wants to be queen and took the job. Arya wants to be a little gutter rat who is good with a sword. Dany wants to rule entire nations and keep her dragon children in the thick of it. I think she is more responsible because she is taking on more responsibility. Simple.

It would be better for everyone if Dany threw rocks at those baby dragons like Arya did with Nymeria. Then maybe they would fear humans and become wild dragons that just ate horses in the Dothraki Sea. 

So, it does matter if my neighbour's dog bites me or the president's? If my neighbour's does, then it doesn't even matter because she's my neighbour, but if the president's dog bites me, should I call the police to arrest him because he's the president? Or is it wrong because it was his dog? No. The same law applies to all of us. Everyone is responsible (or not) for their own equally.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Dunno, we don't know their goal, based insane storiesit seems like they want to kill all humans just 'cause, but GRRM doesn't write that, and the stories were written by the humans thousands of years ago (in fact the weren't even written) so they are likely exaggerated to make the others look worse. If the Others end up being just creatures the humans hate bc of prejudice and they hate the humans just because of prejudice, they can be dealt with without violence. But the slaver's can't be dealt with without violence.

I think the Others are bound to have reasons for their actions, rather like the Norns in Memory Sorrow and Thorn and The Witchwood Crown (and the Norns/Others parallel is very plain).  But, that doesn't mean they are still not very dangerous towards humanity.