Littlefinger love for Catelyn.

[Walda]

@Aebram, not a comprehensive or definitive collection, but here are some places in the text where this and related subjects are mentioned

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Catelyn Stark stared at Tyrion with a coldness on her face such as he had never seen. “Petyr Baelish loved me once. He was only a boy. His passion was a tragedy for all of us, but it was real, and pure, and nothing to be made mock of. He wanted my hand. That is the truth of the matter. You are truly an evil man, Lannister.”

“And you are truly a fool, Lady Stark. Littlefinger has never loved anyone but Littlefinger, and I promise you that it is not your hand that he boasts of, it’s those ripe breasts of yours, and that sweet mouth, and the heat between your legs.”

(AGoT Ch 31 Tyrion IV)

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That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. “Yield!” he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

That was the last time she had seen his face … until the day she was brought before him in King’s Landing.

A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon’s squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers,

(AGoT Ch 40 Catelyn VII)

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over there, beneath that bower, she and Lysa had played at kissing with Petyr.

She had not thought of that in years. How young they all had been—she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager. The girls had traded him between them, serious and giggling by turns. It came back to her so vividly she could almost feel his sweaty fingers on her shoulders and taste the mint on his breath. There was always mint growing in the godswood, and Petyr had liked to chew it. He had been such a bold little boy, always in trouble. “He tried to put his tongue in my mouth,” Catelyn had confessed to her sister afterward, when they were alone. “He did with me too,” Lysa had whispered, shy and breathless. “I liked it.”

(AGoT Ch 71 Catelyn IX)

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Tyrion said. “My lord, you were fostered at Riverrun. I’ve heard it said that you grew close to the Tullys.”

“You might say so. The girls especially.”

“How close?”

“I had their maidenhoods. Is that close enough?”

The lie—Tyrion was fairly certain it was a lie—was delivered with such an air of nonchalance that one could almost believe it. Could it have been Catelyn Stark who lied? About her defloration, and the dagger as well? 

...Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster’s daughter.

(ACoK Ch 17 Tyrion IV)

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You enticed him, just as your mother did that night in Riverrun, with her smiles and her dancing. You think I could forget? That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so, I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten. Your mother did not deserve him. She would not even give him her favor to wear when he fought Brandon Stark. I would have given him my favor. I gave him everything. He is mine now. Not Catelyn’s and not yours.”

...“If you were anyone else, I would banish you. Send you down to Lord Nestor at the Gates of the Moon, or back to the Fingers. How would you like to spend your life on that bleak shore, surrounded by slatterns and sheep pellets? That was what my father meant for Petyr. Everyone thought it was because of that stupid duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn’t so. Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for. I am telling you all this so you will understand how much we love each other, how long we have suffered and dreamed of one another. We made a baby together, a precious little baby.” Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. “When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again.

...

I’ve always loved you. I’ve proved it, haven’t I?” Tears ran down her aunt’s puffy red face. “I gave you my maiden’s gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn’t me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me …”

...“Cat never gave you anything. It was me who got you your first post, who made Jon bring you to court so we could be close to one another. You promised me you would never forget that.”

“Nor have I. We’re together, just as you always wanted, just as we always planned. Just let go of Sansa’s hair …”

“I won’t! I saw you kissing in the snow. She’s just like her mother. Catelyn kissed you in the godswood, but she never meant it, she never wanted you. Why did you love her best? It was me, it was always meeee!”

(ASoS Ch 80 Sansa VIII)

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“You are old enough to know that your mother and I were more than friends. There was a time when Cat was all I wanted in this world. I dared to dream of the life we might make and the children she would give me … but she was a daughter of Riverrun, and Hoster Tully. Family, Duty, Honor, Sansa. Family, Duty, Honor meant I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once. How could I turn my back upon her daughter? In a better world, you might have been mine, not Eddard Stark’s. My loyal loving daughter … Put Joffrey from your mind, sweetling. Dontos, Tyrion, all of them. They will never trouble you again. You are safe now, that’s all that matters. You are safe with me, and sailing home.”

(ASoS Ch 61 Sansa VI)

As you can see, GRRM has left the matter open to interpretation. The only Point of View character that could definitively know is Catelyn, and the only time she addresses Petyr's claim directly, we are in Tyrion's point of view. 

*

On 01/03/2021 at 8:13 PM, Jaak said:

If it were true - and no one has ever corrected Petyr about that fact - then "Catelyn´s" actions in telling him she loved him, giving him her virginity but then not giving him her favour as she should have when he did what a honourable boy had to do, even at the cost of his life

Petyr did not need to be told, and may have been told. He might have observed it was Lysa in his bed by the time the sky lightened, as she stayed until dawn, and he knew both girls well enough to tell one from the other, even when drunk. Alternatively, he might have noticed Catelyn had gone cold on him and was acting as if nothing had happened at breakfast the morning after. While, Lysa was suddenly acting like their relationship has gone to the next level. This riddle was posed to Petyr Baelish, not Jinglebell, after all. 

Lysa's "It was always meeee" speech directly disputes that Catelyn had given him anything, The way Petyr speaks to her implies it is a subject she has been wont to revert to in her cups when they are not as alone as he would rather. 

Her speech to Sansa was more specific, although we can't be quite sure when Petyr entered the hall, only when he made his presence known. But Petyr has been a part of Lysa's household for the best part of a decade, so there is every reason to suppose she has told him the "I gave you everything" story many times before.

We can be sure he knew rather better than Sansa how Lysa would react to the sight of someone who looked like a younger, lovelier Catelyn kissing Petyr in the Godswood.  That was why he waited until the sun was up and his wife was dressed and breakfasted and had fed and dressed her son.

Petyr timed that kiss to happen when Lysa was downstairs,  just as she opened the door to take SweetRobin to see the castle Alayne had made, but before she had put his gloves on. SweetRobin had continued out without his gloves,  his mother had abruptly turned back inside.

The number of guards and maids that ran out to restrain SweetRobin show the humiliating truth that many of the household staff had seen what was going on. Those that had not would have heard about the kiss and the fit and the giant's head before Alayne was summoned to the high hall. That is the nature of a small group of people who are continually in each other's company - it is very difficult to keep secrets from each other.

In Riverrun as well as the Eyrie, I think it is unlikely that they would be living all together as they were, without sorting out who had done what with whom when in short order. The only impediments to understanding are Lysa's jealousy, that turns the sexual harassment by her male favourites into wantoness on the part of their victims. And the wilful insistance of those favourites, that they were encouraged and their victims were willing. Also, in the Riverrun case, a desire to keep secrets from Hoster (the only member of the household who spent much time away from Riverrun).

 It would take a large measure of wilful ignorance for Petyr to persist in thinking Catlyn had given him her virginity the night. It would take a large measure of wilful ignorance to had been mistaken in the first place. If he had merely been pretending to be mistaken, his persistence in error would not be so wonderful.

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Everyone thought it was because of that stupid duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn’t so. Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled,

(ASoS Ch 80 Sansa VIII)

Here is the other thing - Petyr claims to have taken Lysa's virginity. But if he did not believe he took it the night he got drunk, then when did he think he had? Lord Hoster had removed Petyr from Riverrun when he discovered Lysa was pregnant - Lysa must have shown signs of pregnancy in the last fortnight Petyr was at Riverrun. Is it credible that Petyr would think he was taking Lysa's virginity if she was already showing signs of being pregnant to him?

If Lysa conceived within the last fortnight of Petyr's time at Riverrun, there would have been no symptoms to justify hustling Petyr off to the Fingers before he was recovered enough to ride.

I think it is still possible that Petyr had taken Catelyn's virginity (as he claims to Sansa and the Lannister boys) but before the evening Catelyn danced six times with him. Catelyn's denials to Tyrion seem uncharacteristically evasive to me; "loved me once" could mean "took my virginity". 

But Catelyn is clear throughout that she had not shared his passion. This is somewhat supported by Petyr's "Family, duty, honor meant I could never have her hand". Lysa also claims Catelyn never wanted Petyr, although she also claims Catelyn enticed Petyr.

If we take his current recollections as accurate, even when he was a very young boy, Petyr saw himself as the smartest guy in the room, and self-destined for greatness.

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There was a hermit’s cave on his land as well, but no hermit. “He’s dead now, but when I was a boy my father took me to see him. The man had not washed in forty years, so you can imagine how he smelled, but supposedly he had the gift of prophecy. He groped me a bit and said I would be a great man, and for that my father gave him a skin of wine.” Petyr snorted. “I would have told him the same thing for half a cup.”

(ASoS Ch 68 Sansa VII)

The World of Ice and Fire claims that the evening Lysa identified as the one Lords Blackwood and Bracken laid their claim before her father, when Catelyn danced six times with Petyr, then refused to kiss him, was also the day the date of Catelyn's wedding to Brandon Stark was announced at Riverrun. That might explain Petyr's drinking, but it would not motivate Catelyn to sleep with him. Especially if Brandon had attended the dinner.

Jaime probably spent his first fortnight at Riverrun some time before then. He recalls he had been less than fifteen years old at the time, and Bynden Blackfish had been less than thirty-four years old. (AFfC Ch 33 Jaime V) When Jaime actually was fifteen, he was a knight, and he had sworn himself to Aerys kingsguard at Harrenhal, to forestall his father's plan to wed him to Lysa Tully.

There is no mention of Lord Tully attending Lord Whent's tourney. No mention of many riverlords - the Heighs and the Freys are mentioned, but no Darry, Piper, Vance, Blackwood, Bracken, Vypren, Grell, Butterwell, Mallister, etc.etc.

Catelyn reminds Eddard that she was only twelve when her father promised her to Brandon Stark.(AGoT Ch 6 Catelyn II). We know Catelyn is no more than two years older than Jaime Lannister and there is a wider age gap between her and Lysa than Sansa and Arya, although in both cases the gap is more than two years, less than three. Petyr is no more than two years younger than Jaime, and he is younger than Lysa, older than Edmure. Edmure is about half a dozen years younger than Catelyn.

Catelyn was 18ish when she married Eddard, and Lysa was 16ish  when she married Jon Arryn. Brandon had died about a year before the marriage, when Lysa was at most 15, Petyr 14. So at the time of the duel, Petyr was most likely about 13, and Catelyn had been betrothed to Brandon since Petyr was nine or ten.

The idea that the duel had been for Catelyn's hand seems to me to be not enough reason to goad nineteen or twenty year old Brandon into it. He had been betrothed to Catelyn for three or four years,  had just announced the date of their wedding, if TWoIaF tells it true. He has nothing to gain from humouring some foolish boy with a crush on his betrothed.

However, if Petyr was claiming he had dishonoured Brandon's bride, that would be an insult to his bride-to-be's reputation that might have justified the quite savage satisfaction he took. Adding the notion that the winner would take Catelyn's hand sounds to me like Petyr Baelish pushing his luck. 

Catelyn gave Brandon her favor and Edmure acted as Brandon's squire, so they were at the very least invested in Catelyn marrying Brandon.

Petyr made no attempt to gain Lysa's hand, in spite of taking her virginity and leaving her with child. He was happy enough to work on her husband's commissions for at least a decade, building an enviable power base in finance and trade circles, and at court.

Petyr only offered to marry Lysa after he had been made Lord of Harrenhal by King Joffrey. More than a full year after Jon Arryn's death. Why? Because he had his sights on being Lord Protector of the Eyrie. 

Petyr let Cersei keep Sansa hostage, made no attempt to stop the beatings of Joffrey or the marriage to Tyrion. Apart from a possible attempt to take her during the riots of King's Landing, he has let the Lannisters manage her. Until Robb dies at the Red Wedding, making Sansa the heir to Winterfell. (Oh, and Catelyn dies too, but his pure and true love for her seems to be deader.)

Once Sansa has a huge inheritance, she becomes irresistible. Lysa also.

Jaime Lannister had heard something

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Jaime took a swallow, wiped his mouth. “No doubt Ned wished to spare you. His sweet young bride, if not quite a maiden. Well, you wanted truth. Ask me. We made a bargain, I can deny you nothing. Ask.”

“Dead is dead.” I do not want to know this.

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII) If someone had Catelyn before the wedding, it would be either Petyr or Brandon or Eddard himself - or incest.  And of the three, Petyr is the only one we know has spoken on the subject.

At the time, Catelyn is quizzing Jaime about her son Bran, and that dagger. Jaime remembers that Petyr Baelish lost his dagger to King Robert, who bet against him. Catelyn realises he is telling her the truth, 

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Tyrion Lannister had said much the same thing as they rode through the Mountains of the Moon, Catelyn remembered. She had refused to believe him. Petyr had sworn otherwise, Petyr who had been almost a brother, Petyr who loved her so much he fought a duel for her hand … and yet if Jaime and Tyrion told the same tale, what did that mean? The brothers had not seen each other since departing Winterfell more than a year ago.

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII)

Jaime has been joking that Catelyn has come to the dungeon where he is tied up because she wants to be serviced by him. He tells her not only how he defenestrated her son Brandon, but also how her fiance Brandon had been strangled by a Tyroshi machine as he struggled to grab his sword and cut down his father.

He ends by goading her

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“Come, Lady Stark, don’t you find this all terribly amusing?”

“I find nothing about you amusing, Kingslayer.”

“That name again. I don’t think I’ll fuck you after all, Littlefinger had you first, didn’t he? I never eat off another man’s trencher. Besides, you’re not half so lovely as my sister.”

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII) by this point, Lady Catelyn has stopped defending Petyr. At no point has she explictly denied that Petyr slept with her. And it makes sense to me that Petyr could goad Brandon to fight with such fury by claiming he had dishonoured his fiance (and yes, this would be true of 'bloody sword' Brandon, because hypocrisy feeds outrage).

I know it sounded pretty explictly denied when Tyrion had said "every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead", and Catelyn had told him emphatically "that is a lie".

But the lie Catelyn was referring to might have been the notion that Petyr could convert his tragic and pure love for her into a bawdy tale of how he took the maidenheads of both Tully sisters. It might have been a way of evading the accusation that she had sex with Petyr Baelish before she married.

[Nathan Stark]

7 hours ago, Walda said:

@Aebram, not a comprehensive or definitive collection, but here are some places in the text where this and related subjects are mentioned

(AGoT Ch 31 Tyrion IV)

(AGoT Ch 40 Catelyn VII)

(AGoT Ch 71 Catelyn IX)

(ACoK Ch 17 Tyrion IV)

(ASoS Ch 80 Sansa VIII)

(ASoS Ch 61 Sansa VI)

As you can see, GRRM has left the matter open to interpretation. The only Point of View character that could definitively know is Catelyn, and the only time she addresses Petyr's claim directly, we are in Tyrion's point of view. 

*

Petyr did not need to be told, and may have been told. He might have observed it was Lysa in his bed by the time the sky lightened, as she stayed until dawn, and he knew both girls well enough to tell one from the other, even when drunk. Alternatively, he might have noticed Catelyn had gone cold on him and was acting as if nothing had happened at breakfast the morning after. While, Lysa was suddenly acting like their relationship has gone to the next level. This riddle was posed to Petyr Baelish, not Jinglebell, after all. 

Lysa's "It was always meeee" speech directly disputes that Catelyn had given him anything, The way Petyr speaks to her implies it is a subject she has been wont to revert to in her cups when they are not as alone as he would rather. 

Her speech to Sansa was more specific, although we can't be quite sure when Petyr entered the hall, only when he made his presence known. But Petyr has been a part of Lysa's household for the best part of a decade, so there is every reason to suppose she has told him the "I gave you everything" story many times before.

We can be sure he knew rather better than Sansa how Lysa would react to the sight of someone who looked like a younger, lovelier Catelyn kissing Petyr in the Godswood.  That was why he waited until the sun was up and his wife was dressed and breakfasted and had fed and dressed her son.

Petyr timed that kiss to happen when Lysa was downstairs,  just as she opened the door to take SweetRobin to see the castle Alayne had made, but before she had put his gloves on. SweetRobin had continued out without his gloves,  his mother had abruptly turned back inside.

The number of guards and maids that ran out to restrain SweetRobin show the humiliating truth that many of the household staff had seen what was going on. Those that had not would have heard about the kiss and the fit and the giant's head before Alayne was summoned to the high hall. That is the nature of a small group of people who are continually in each other's company - it is very difficult to keep secrets from each other.

In Riverrun as well as the Eyrie, I think it is unlikely that they would be living all together as they were, without sorting out who had done what with whom when in short order. The only impediments to understanding are Lysa's jealousy, that turns the sexual harassment by her male favourites into wantoness on the part of their victims. And the wilful insistance of those favourites, that they were encouraged and their victims were willing. Also, in the Riverrun case, a desire to keep secrets from Hoster (the only member of the household who spent much time away from Riverrun).

 It would take a large measure of wilful ignorance for Petyr to persist in thinking Catlyn had given him her virginity the night. It would take a large measure of wilful ignorance to had been mistaken in the first place. If he had merely been pretending to be mistaken, his persistence in error would not be so wonderful.

(ASoS Ch 80 Sansa VIII)

Here is the other thing - Petyr claims to have taken Lysa's virginity. But if he did not believe he took it the night he got drunk, then when did he think he had? Lord Hoster had removed Petyr from Riverrun when he discovered Lysa was pregnant - Lysa must have shown signs of pregnancy in the last fortnight Petyr was at Riverrun. Is it credible that Petyr would think he was taking Lysa's virginity if she was already showing signs of being pregnant to him?

If Lysa conceived within the last fortnight of Petyr's time at Riverrun, there would have been no symptoms to justify hustling Petyr off to the Fingers before he was recovered enough to ride.

I think it is still possible that Petyr had taken Catelyn's virginity (as he claims to Sansa and the Lannister boys) but before the evening Catelyn danced six times with him. Catelyn's denials to Tyrion seem uncharacteristically evasive to me; "loved me once" could mean "took my virginity". 

But Catelyn is clear throughout that she had not shared his passion. This is somewhat supported by Petyr's "Family, duty, honor meant I could never have her hand". Lysa also claims Catelyn never wanted Petyr, although she also claims Catelyn enticed Petyr.

If we take his current recollections as accurate, even when he was a very young boy, Petyr saw himself as the smartest guy in the room, and self-destined for greatness.

(ASoS Ch 68 Sansa VII)

The World of Ice and Fire claims that the evening Lysa identified as the one Lords Blackwood and Bracken laid their claim before her father, when Catelyn danced six times with Petyr, then refused to kiss him, was also the day the date of Catelyn's wedding to Brandon Stark was announced at Riverrun. That might explain Petyr's drinking, but it would not motivate Catelyn to sleep with him. Especially if Brandon had attended the dinner.

Jaime probably spent his first fortnight at Riverrun some time before then. He recalls he had been less than fifteen years old at the time, and Bynden Blackfish had been less than thirty-four years old. (AFfC Ch 33 Jaime V) When Jaime actually was fifteen, he was a knight, and he had sworn himself to Aerys kingsguard at Harrenhal, to forestall his father's plan to wed him to Lysa Tully.

There is no mention of Lord Tully attending Lord Whent's tourney. No mention of many riverlords - the Heighs and the Freys are mentioned, but no Darry, Piper, Vance, Blackwood, Bracken, Vypren, Grell, Butterwell, Mallister, etc.etc.

Catelyn reminds Eddard that she was only twelve when her father promised her to Brandon Stark.(AGoT Ch 6 Catelyn II). We know Catelyn is no more than two years older than Jaime Lannister and there is a wider age gap between her and Lysa than Sansa and Arya, although in both cases the gap is more than two years, less than three. Petyr is no more than two years younger than Jaime, and he is younger than Lysa, older than Edmure. Edmure is about half a dozen years younger than Catelyn.

Catelyn was 18ish when she married Eddard, and Lysa was 16ish  when she married Jon Arryn. Brandon had died about a year before the marriage, when Lysa was at most 15, Petyr 14. So at the time of the duel, Petyr was most likely about 13, and Catelyn had been betrothed to Brandon since Petyr was nine or ten.

The idea that the duel had been for Catelyn's hand seems to me to be not enough reason to goad nineteen or twenty year old Brandon into it. He had been betrothed to Catelyn for three or four years,  had just announced the date of their wedding, if TWoIaF tells it true. He has nothing to gain from humouring some foolish boy with a crush on his betrothed.

However, if Petyr was claiming he had dishonoured Brandon's bride, that would be an insult to his bride-to-be's reputation that might have justified the quite savage satisfaction he took. Adding the notion that the winner would take Catelyn's hand sounds to me like Petyr Baelish pushing his luck. 

Catelyn gave Brandon her favor and Edmure acted as Brandon's squire, so they were at the very least invested in Catelyn marrying Brandon.

Petyr made no attempt to gain Lysa's hand, in spite of taking her virginity and leaving her with child. He was happy enough to work on her husband's commissions for at least a decade, building an enviable power base in finance and trade circles, and at court.

Petyr only offered to marry Lysa after he had been made Lord of Harrenhal by King Joffrey. More than a full year after Jon Arryn's death. Why? Because he had his sights on being Lord Protector of the Eyrie. 

Petyr let Cersei keep Sansa hostage, made no attempt to stop the beatings of Joffrey or the marriage to Tyrion. Apart from a possible attempt to take her during the riots of King's Landing, he has let the Lannisters manage her. Until Robb dies at the Red Wedding, making Sansa the heir to Winterfell. (Oh, and Catelyn dies too, but his pure and true love for her seems to be deader.)

Once Sansa has a huge inheritance, she becomes irresistible. Lysa also.

Jaime Lannister had heard something

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII) If someone had Catelyn before the wedding, it would be either Petyr or Brandon or Eddard himself - or incest.  And of the three, Petyr is the only one we know has spoken on the subject.

At the time, Catelyn is quizzing Jaime about her son Bran, and that dagger. Jaime remembers that Petyr Baelish lost his dagger to King Robert, who bet against him. Catelyn realises he is telling her the truth, 

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII)

Jaime has been joking that Catelyn has come to the dungeon where he is tied up because she wants to be serviced by him. He tells her not only how he defenestrated her son Brandon, but also how her fiance Brandon had been strangled by a Tyroshi machine as he struggled to grab his sword and cut down his father.

He ends by goading her

(ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII) by this point, Lady Catelyn has stopped defending Petyr. At no point has she explictly denied that Petyr slept with her. And it makes sense to me that Petyr could goad Brandon to fight with such fury by claiming he had dishonoured his fiance (and yes, this would be true of 'bloody sword' Brandon, because hypocrisy feeds outrage).

I know it sounded pretty explictly denied when Tyrion had said "every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead", and Catelyn had told him emphatically "that is a lie".

But the lie Catelyn was referring to might have been the notion that Petyr could convert his tragic and pure love for her into a bawdy tale of how he took the maidenheads of both Tully sisters. It might have been a way of evading the accusation that she had sex with Petyr Baelish before she married.

You are overthinking this. Littlefinger did not take Catelyn's virginity, he took Lysa's. It is possible that he is massively deluding himself, but deep down he knows he never had Catelyn, which is why he is so obsessed with Sansa, aka Catelyn 2.0.

[Jaak]

On 3/7/2021 at 3:16 PM, Walda said:

@Aebram, not a comprehensive or definitive collection, but here are some places in the text where this and related subjects are mentioned

(AGoT Ch 31 Tyrion IV)

(AGoT Ch 40 Catelyn VII)

(AGoT Ch 71 Catelyn IX)

(ACoK Ch 17 Tyrion IV)

(ASoS Ch 80 Sansa VIII)

(ASoS Ch 61 Sansa VI)

As you can see, GRRM has left the matter open to interpretation. The only Point of View character that could definitively know is Catelyn, and the only time she addresses Petyr's claim directly, we are in Tyrion's point of view. 

She DOES address the claim indirectly but expressly. At one point she in her own POV recalls Eddard as solemn stranger taking her virginity. Therefore Petyr specifically did not have it.

On 3/7/2021 at 3:16 PM, Walda said:

*

Petyr did not need to be told, and may have been told. He might have observed it was Lysa in his bed by the time the sky lightened, as she stayed until dawn, and he knew both girls well enough to tell one from the other, even when drunk. Alternatively, he might have noticed Catelyn had gone cold on him and was acting as if nothing had happened at breakfast the morning after. While, Lysa was suddenly acting like their relationship has gone to the next level. This riddle was posed to Petyr Baelish, not Jinglebell, after all.

Against this is the sheer suicidal stupidity of Petyr issuing his challenge to Brandon - amd then repeatedly refusing to yield in a duel that was clearly going badly.

It makes sense in view of the interpretation that whatever the signs were that Catelyn had not actually given him her virginity, Petyr missed or misinterpreted all of them, and honestly believed it was Catelyn till and during is duel. The duel is indirect evidence for Petyr´s belief.

[Walda]

On 09/03/2021 at 5:57 AM, Jaak said:

The duel is indirect evidence for Petyr´s belief.

The duel could also be evidence of Petyr's ambition, evidence of his desire to rile Brandon Stark, or Hoster Tully. It is indirect evidence in support of whatever motive one chooses to ascribe his decision to fight a duel to. 

 

On 09/03/2021 at 5:57 AM, Jaak said:

She DOES address the claim indirectly but expressly

I overlooked that. But now you mention it, I have to say she addressed the matter of who took her virginity directly, to herself, in her own point of view

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I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

(ACoK Ch 45 Catelyn IV)

The only quibble I have (and it is only a quibble) is that maidenhood is not maidenhead, so I suppose GRRM could argue that if in the future he wanted to represent Petyr Baelish as an honest man and true, and not creepy at all.

There is Lady Smallwood's accusation that Tom Sevenstreams left maids pregnant to back up that interpretation. We know from Sansa and Margarey and Myranda that a woman is not a maid if her marriage has been consumated with or without conception. It is unclear if an unmarried mother would be regarded as a maiden or a matron (perhaps a despoiled maid?).

Dany is clearly 'no maiden, but still fair', and Cersei is still King Robert's widow, and a mother regardless of the paternity of her children or the variety of her lovers. More intriguing to me is whether Ashara Dayne would be classified a maid or a matron. Delana Florent was a maiden when Robert took her, which seems to have influenced Robert's public acknowledgment of Edric Storm (and cast a shadow over Selyse's womb that left her unable to bear sons, yeah sure Selyse). Delena is no longer a maid, but that might be because she married Norcross ten years ago and has had two legitimate sons to him. Why she is now hiding in Lys is a separate puzzle. It seems that Edric has lived apart from her for years. Or maybe only since he left Storm's End, and she left to join him across the narrow sea.

Also off topic - Catelyn believes Jon was conceived after she married Eddard. Based on nothing at all, except perhaps a desire to believe Robb was the elder of the two, and the heir to Winterfell even if Jon was ever legitimised.

But yeah, I am digressing and think that to claim "took my maidenhood" merely means "married me" would be too contrived. For me, that monologue is definitive. If Catelyn had sex with anyone before marriage, she ought to have shown a qualm about it in that monologue. After all, Catelyn is the queen of qualm. I no longer believe Catelyn had sex with anyone before marriage.

But I still can't see the duel as something Petyr did for love, or for Catelyn's hand in marriage. For a start, if Petyr's goal was marriage, fighting with Brandon Stark is not going to convice Hoster or Catelyn to accept him. He must persuade at least one (and ideally, both) if he wants to marry Catelyn. 

He made his challenge without consulting Catelyn. She pointedly collaborated and lent all her support to Brandon, from before the duel started, letting Petyr know what side she was on and giving him every opportunity to back down.

Petyr could not have believed she preferred him to Brandon, or wanted to marry him. Petyr could not suppose Hoster would allow him to marry Catelyn if he won the duel, any more than he could suppose that killing her betrothed would make Catelyn want to marry him. It was obvious from the start that the outcome as far as Hoster was concerned would be Petyr being sent home from Riverrun, dead or alive.

Dueling with Brandon is a spoiling strategy. It's a sour grapes strategy if he went into the duel believing he had deflowered Catelyn, a dog-in-the-manger strategy if he only said Catelyn's name to humiliate Lysa and assure her sister of his constancy.

Catelyn's affection for him motivated her to beg for his life to be spared, but if Petyr had any genuine feeling for her, he would not have attempted to duel Brandon Stark. That duel announced in as public a way as was possible, that Catelyn was damaged goods. That might even have been the purpose of it.

 He might have foreseen his life would be spared. Starks are known to be touchy about honour, and Brandon had a reputation as a hot-headed gallant.

It is not quite as suicidally stupid when you think about it - Petyr might have realised that Brandon could really only lose. If Brandon killed or seriously injured a small, barely teenage boy, he looks like a dishonourable bully, attacking a mere lad, who had only trained with wooden swords, and wasn't adequately armoured.

Brandon wasn't going to gain Catelyn's hand in marriage by dueling Petyr, (no more than Petyr would). By agreeing to the fight, Brandon was being somewhat unchivalrous too, as it would be widely believed that Catelyn must have at least been accused of taking her pleasure with a very young boy, in her father's protection. To justify his 'defence' of his right to her hand, he legitimized Petyr's right to challenge for it.

He was a fool to do it, and maybe Petyr was a fool too, but he didn't die, and he got out of Hoster's Riverrun with the absolute trust and deep affection of both Tully girls, and probably Edmure also wishing he had done more for Petyr. He had in fact shat on all of them, damaging Catelyn's reputation, leaving Lysa with child, and Edmure without a friend around his own age. Although I'm missing something here too - there has to be a greater gain to Petyr in returning home at that time, one that would seem worth the blood he shed. I wonder when Petyr's father died? Gulltown did not rise for Jon Arryn at first, and Petyr made his early connexions with the traders there. But it is hardly likely that he would have had any influence in the course of the rebellion before he had turned fourteen or been a year in the area. Perhaps, though, being sent home as he was would give him the friendship of families in the Sisters with no love for the Starks or the Tullys. If so, his friends would not have cared much for Lord Arryn's marriage or his defiance.

The reason Cately gives for the duel (ie. for her hand) is not sufficient to explain Brandon agreeing to it. If it was just some lovesick child, Brandon could have laughed it off .

I would draw a parallel with Joffrey wanting to fight Robb with a real sword. Joffrey suggested the duel because he had been losing against Robb with wooden swords, and as he couldn't win a fair fight against him, he wanted to set up an unfair one.

He knew the Hound would step in and kill Robb before he could be bested with true steel. He put Robb in the infuriating position of knowing he couldn't lose, and couldn't win. Robb didn't want to back down because Joffrey was a little shit and he was basically a hot-headed fool. But in this instance Ser Rodrick and Theon Greyjoy stepped in. In the Riverrun case, Ser Desmond Grell and the Blackfish seem to have nothing to do with the matter, and Edmure was squiring for Brandon rather than playing the role of a second in a duel and attempting to negotiate a peace to avoid it. I am kind of sus on Grell (and Ryger, and Wayne) but it suprises me that the Blackfish did not figure in the duel or attempt to stop it.

Petyr must have goaded Brandon into it, must have done or said something to rile Brandon's hot temper - merely wanting Catelyn's hand in marriage is not a good enough reason for Brandon, any more than it would be credited as the real reason by the gossips that would spread the story through Westeros. That was just the sanitised version told to Catelyn, which isn't enough to explain Brandon responding with anger rather than mirth.

We know the duel was not enough to dissipate Brandon's anger, even though he seems to have barely kept his promise to spare the boy's life.

Petyr wouldn't let it go either. Decades later, after Catelyn has had five children to a different Stark, he is goading her current husband about it, and listened to with interest.

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Littlefinger ... eyed Ned with a smile on his lips that bordered on insolence. “I have hoped to meet you for some years, Lord Stark. No doubt Lady Catelyn has mentioned me to you.”

“She has,” Ned replied with a chill in his voice. The sly arrogance of the comment rankled him. “I understand you knew my brother Brandon as well.”

Renly Baratheon laughed. Varys shuffled over to listen.

“Rather too well,” Littlefinger said. “I still carry a token of his esteem. Did Brandon speak of me too?”

“Often, and with some heat,” Ned said, hoping that would end it. He had no patience with this game they played, this dueling with words.

“I should have thought that heat ill suits you Starks,” Littlefinger said. “Here in the south, they say you are all made of ice, and melt when you ride below the Neck.”

(AGoT Ch 20 Eddard IV)

The "often, and with some heat" part is interesting. For a start, how often were Brandon and Eddard in each other's company in the time between that duel and Brandon's death? There was the Tourney of Harrenhal, assuming the duel took place before it. I believe  Eddard and Robert were at the Eyrie when Brandon died and Jon Arryn was called upon to surrender them to the king, but we don't know so much about before then. Perhaps with the Stark party riding to Riverrun to attend the wedding when Lyanna was abducted (allegedly). Or maybe with Brandon, going to meet them. Anyway, I didn't get the impression the brothers had much to do with each other at that time.

Still, nearly killing this stripling (while he was a guest to the Tully household, and notwithstanding that the boy was a ward Lord Hoster had under his protection) was not enough to dissipate Brandon's hard feelings about Petyr Baelish. Lysa said the duel was 'stupid' and I don't know that Brandon was smarter than Ned, or that the duel was really much more than a fairly inconsequential stunt that Petyr has to keep playing up because otherwise it would be forgotten. But for him at least, it has to have been about something more than Catelyn's hand in marriage.

[Springwatch]

@Walda I like your analysis!

11 hours ago, Walda said:

Petyr must have goaded Brandon into it, must have done or said something to rile Brandon's hot temper - merely wanting Catelyn's hand in marriage is not a good enough reason for Brandon, any more than it would be credited as the real reason by the gossips that would spread the story through Westeros. That was just the sanitised version told to Catelyn, which isn't enough to explain Brandon responding with anger rather than mirth.

I always found the duel difficult to rationalise, falling back on 'wolf blood' - Brandon just unable to resist a live steel fight, with blood. The problem with this is Hoster's describing him as a 'gallant fool' when challenging Rhaegar to fight for Lyanna. Why didn't Hoster just say, oh gods, wolf blood again ?

Hoster has connected Brandon with gallantry before. At the duel with Petyr. A duel is an affair of honor.

So Brandon was not just beating up a stripling, honor was involved. This all makes sense. Petyr let it be known that he was Cat's true lover, that he had her maidenhead (which he thinks is true). Whether Cat heard all this or not (probably not) - she gives not a shred of support to him. Therefore, in Brandon's eyes, Petyr has slandered Cat's honor, and like a good wolf he comes roaring out in defence of the victim.

I've got to admit, wolf blood looks a lot better in this interpretation.

11 hours ago, Walda said:

Dueling with Brandon is a spoiling strategy. It's a sour grapes strategy if he went into the duel believing he had deflowered Catelyn, a dog-in-the-manger strategy if he only said Catelyn's name to humiliate Lysa and assure her sister of his constancy.

Catelyn's affection for him motivated her to beg for his life to be spared, but if Petyr had any genuine feeling for her, he would not have attempted to duel Brandon Stark. That duel announced in as public a way as was possible, that Catelyn was damaged goods. That might even have been the purpose of it.

Petyr does not look good, even allowing that love makes fools of everyone.

He damages Cat's reputation, and continues at KL, and the gossip finally reaches Cat in a salacious version from the mouth of Tyrion. Poor Cat! Even Jaime talks to her like she's a whore - where did he get that from? The origin was Petyr!

Petyr also plants the misguided idea of his true love in Cat, and the feeling she let him down. The pay off comes way down the line, when shrewd, practical Cat makes that fatal misjudgment: telling Ned Petyr can be trusted.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 3/7/2021 at 7:16 AM, Walda said:

The idea that the duel had been for Catelyn's hand seems to me to be not enough reason to goad nineteen or twenty year old Brandon into it. He had been betrothed to Catelyn for three or four years,  had just announced the date of their wedding, if TWoIaF tells it true. He has nothing to gain from humouring some foolish boy with a crush on his betrothed.

A bloody sword is a beautiful thing. Brandon doesn't need "goading" to agree to a duel he believes he's sure to win.

14 hours ago, Walda said:

But I still can't see the duel as something Petyr did for love, or for Catelyn's hand in marriage. For a start, if Petyr's goal was marriage, fighting with Brandon Stark is not going to convice Hoster or Catelyn to accept him. He must persuade at least one (and ideally, both) if he wants to marry Catelyn.

You're right about the probable consequence of an improbable victory, but LF was a dumb kid who believed in the songs.

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if Petyr had any genuine feeling for her, he would not have attempted to duel Brandon Stark. That duel announced in as public a way as was possible, that Catelyn was damaged goods. That might even have been the purpose of it.

If he had genuine feelings for her as an adult he wouldn't have done such horrible things to her family and failed to do anything to keep Cat safe. But I disagree that the duel made any such announcement at the time. We hear about aspiring suitors dueling each other over women (like the Realm's Delight, Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen) often without any damage to the woman's reputation. Instead it's impressive that she's held in such esteem to motivate duels. Jaehaerys dueling the Stinger over his daughter's deflowering is a completely different story, which was to the death regardless of what Saera wanted.

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If Brandon killed or seriously injured a small, barely teenage boy, he looks like a dishonourable bully, attacking a mere lad, who had only trained with wooden swords, and wasn't adequately armoured.

I don't think the Westerosi think that. Killing relatively untrained young people in war is common and considered acceptable.

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By agreeing to the fight, Brandon was being somewhat unchivalrous too, as it would be widely believed that Catelyn must have at least been accused of taking her pleasure with a very young boy, in her father's protection.

There's no evidence for that.

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and probably Edmure also wishing he had done more for Petyr

What is your basis for saying that?

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Although I'm missing something here too - there has to be a greater gain to Petyr in returning home at that time, one that would seem worth the blood he shed

What your missing her is that LF did not make the decision to duel while knowing what the outcome would be. He thought it would be worth it because he naively thought he could win.

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If it was just some lovesick child, Brandon could have laughed it off.

Robert Baratheon laughed off Rhaegar naming Lyanna QoLaB (at least publicly). Brandon didn't. He was not one to avoid conflict.

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There was the Tourney of Harrenhal, assuming the duel took place before it.

It didn't. It took place in 281, while Brandon's engagement to Cat was announced in 282. After the duel he left from Riverrun to meet his father's party coming from the north for the wedding, but got diverted by news of Rhaegar abducting Lyanna. GRRM is just sloppy with his timeline.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Brandon just unable to resist a live steel fight, with blood.

The simplest explanation is the best one here.

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So Brandon was not just beating up a stripling, honor was involved.

Who says they consider it dishonorable to beat up a stripling if that stripling challenges you? Others have brought up that Brandon could have laughed off the challenge and refused to duel, but that's considered less honorable (remember, this is aristocratic rather than bourgeois honor). And after he won, he chivalrously spared LF's life.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 2/28/2021 at 7:15 AM, lorafen said:

Why so inteligent and cunning character like Petyr Baelish has loved so dumb and irrational person like Catelyn Tully even after he has grown up? Is that make any sense or it is another lie or Littlefinger's game?

Catelyn is not dumb. Cat was a knockout in her youth. Most boys would have been attracted as well.  They like the high hanging fruit beyond easy reach. 

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Brandon just unable to resist a live steel fight, with blood.

The simplest explanation is the best one here.

Wolf blood has got to mean loving a fight - we get inside Summer's head, so we know what 'wolfy' means.

But Hoster thinks Brandon is a gallant man. Some definitions of gallant (merriam-webster.com):

1 : showy in dress or bearing : smart
2 a : splendid, stately a gallant ship
   b : spirited, brave gallant efforts against the enemy
   c : nobly chivalrous and often self-sacrificing
3 : courteously and elaborately attentive especially to ladies

Only the last two apply, and only if Brandon is defending Cat's honor.

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

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So Brandon was not just beating up a stripling, honor was involved.

Who says they consider it dishonorable to beat up a stripling if that stripling challenges you?

I was talking about duels being affairs of honor; that kind of duelling culture where one man claims another has committed some kind of offence or insult, and demands a duel (which can't be refused without public shaming). In this case, the offence would be claiming to have slept with Cat, when she is supposed to be a virgin at marriage.

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Others have brought up that Brandon could have laughed off the challenge and refused to duel, but that's considered less honorable (remember, this is aristocratic rather than bourgeois honor).

Brandon hasn't insulted Cat or Petyr, therefore Petyr has no right to challenge him.

Brandon gets no honour or credit out of beating a much weaker opponent. No fun either. So why does he do it? I think, he was reacting like Lyanna seeing the crannogman being beaten up - he saw one of 'his' people being humiliated and his righteous outrage got him too fired up not to fight.

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

And after he won, he chivalrously spared LF's life.

Well, chivalrous is too generous. He only needed to beat Petyr, not wound him badly.

[CamiloRP]

I don't know if everyone already knew this, but given that the plan of the Red Wedding was letting Cat live, and given Tywin's usual house takeover MO, I think Petyr asked for her to be kept alive to we'd her and have a former grasp on the Riverlands. The problem with this would be the Vale and Lysa.

[Springwatch]

17 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't know if everyone already knew this, but given that the plan of the Red Wedding was letting Cat live, and given Tywin's usual house takeover MO, I think Petyr asked for her to be kept alive to we'd her and have a former grasp on the Riverlands. The problem with this would be the Vale and Lysa.

I think Lord Walder wanted to keep her for House Frey. He likes her. All men like Cat - she insults them, and they still like her. It's an oddity, so we're probably meant to notice it.

[FictionIsntReal]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Wolf blood has got to mean loving a fight

Agreed. I don't care about the warging thing, the people who talk about "wolf blood" don't know about that.

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Some definitions of gallant (merriam-webster.com):
1 : showy in dress or bearing : smart
2 a : splendid, stately a gallant ship
   b : spirited, brave gallant efforts against the enemy

Dueling is spirited, and he was taking some risk that he probably could have avoided by just ignoring LF.

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I was talking about duels being affairs of honor; that kind of duelling culture where one man claims another has committed some kind of offence or insult, and demands a duel (which can't be refused without public shaming).

I already pointed out that Westerosi will duel over a woman's hand without any of that being at stake. Bravos across the narrow sea will duel someone if they disagree over who the most beautiful courtesan is. Those things are in accordance with the norms of their societies.

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Brandon hasn't insulted Cat or Petyr, therefore Petyr has no right to challenge him.

Where do you get this notion of these "rights"?

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Brandon gets no honour or credit out of beating a much weaker opponent.

Minor credit, but a win is a win and a refusal to duel would speak less of him. If people think you have any aversion to duelling they might think they can get away with dishonoring you.

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No fun either.

I don't think Brandon would agree. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing.

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Well, chivalrous is too generous. He only needed to beat Petyr, not wound him badly.

Petyr was refusing to concede. It was on him to do so when it was apparent he was beaten.

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't know if everyone already knew this, but given that the plan of the Red Wedding was letting Cat live, and given Tywin's usual house takeover MO, I think Petyr asked for her to be kept alive to we'd her and have a former grasp on the Riverlands. The problem with this would be the Vale and Lysa.

Petyr also asked to be given Sansa way before then, but was turned down. I think Tywin would insist on holding Cat as a hostage, he has no reason to give LF anything for something Tywin considers his own accomplishment and which LF wasn't involved in.

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Agreed. I don't care about the warging thing, the people who talk about "wolf blood" don't know about that.

Sure. They do know the character of a wolf though, better than us - but - we've been in Summer's head, which stops us getting too caught up in the idea of the noble wolf.

Ned talks about having to 'cleanse' himself after a beheading - possibly he's not so different from his wolf-blooded siblings, but just takes more care to calm his inner wolf.

13 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Dueling is spirited, and he was taking some risk that he probably could have avoided by just ignoring LF.

I already pointed out that Westerosi will duel over a woman's hand without any of that being at stake. Bravos across the narrow sea will duel someone if they disagree over who the most beautiful courtesan is. Those things are in accordance with the norms of their societies.

Where do you get this notion of these "rights"?

Fiction - Three Musketeers, War and Peace etc - but it's been a long, long time, so I checked on wikipedia on the duel and code duello and it's pretty much what I thought.

The bravos meet my expectations too - Sam is aware they're fishing for the 'wrong' comment from him (e.g. insulting the Nightingale by claiming she's not the most beautiful...) - until he does, the bravos won't touch him.

13 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Minor credit, but a win is a win and a refusal to duel would speak less of him. If people think you have any aversion to duelling they might think they can get away with dishonoring you.

Petyr can't dishonour Brandon. Brandon is the heir of a paramount lord, Petyr is almost nobody. The whole point of being an aristocrat is that you only answer to your peers; and they don't care what Petyr thinks.

13 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think Brandon would agree. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing.

Petyr was refusing to concede. It was on him to do so when it was apparent he was beaten.

You're not wrong - I bet Brandon liked the sight of Petyr's blood; I bet Lyanna enjoyed beating up those squires (and knights); and I bet Ned got a weird thrill from a beheading, that needed a bit of meditation to get rid of.

But the point about the wolves (the 2-legged kind) is they are fired up by injustice - and then, probably, they lose their heads a bit. Brandon should have done what Brienne did to Loras - a dagger to the throat. She wasn't really going to kill him, and he didn't really want to say 'yield', but he did it anyway because that's the rules of the game.

 

[FictionIsntReal]

14 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Fiction - Three Musketeers, War and Peace etc

Those are all set after the invention of muskets, the Protestant reformation, Peace of Westphalia, etc rather than the medieval era. And on our historical earth rather than Westeros, with its own culture & laws merely inspired by the medieval era.

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e.g. insulting the Nightingale by claiming she's not the most beautiful...

A very thin reed and not based on "rights" but instead having an excuse.

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Petyr can't dishonour Brandon

I wrote "people" because it's not limited to Petyr. Petyr is just the one challenging Brandon to a duel in this case, Brandon refusing will be relevant info about Brandon for everyone else.

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Petyr is almost nobody

He's still an aristocrat.

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But the point about the wolves (the 2-legged kind) is they are fired up by injustice

No, I don't recall them being characterized that way. The four-legged wolves are just wild, and that's the point of the analogy. When Ned worries about Arya dying before her time like Lyanna & Brandon due to "the wolf blood" it's not about being "fired up by injustice". Ned himself is fired up by injustice, but he doesn't have the wolf blood. He lacks Brandon's mirth & his rages.

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Brandon should have done what Brienne did to Loras - a dagger to the throat

That was a somewhat desperate move after she'd been disarmed (a dagger has a range too short for dueling). Loras had no REASON to surrender prior to that.

[Springwatch]

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Those are all set after the invention of muskets, the Protestant reformation, Peace of Westphalia, etc rather than the medieval era. And on our historical earth rather than Westeros, with its own culture & laws merely inspired by the medieval era.

The musketeers duelled with swords (muskets not very accurate I believe). Their attitude (willingness to take offence; eagerness to fight) is very like the bravos of Essos. For the rest, I'm only a wikipedia expert, but wikipedia reports codes of duelling in Europe going back 14xx, and very much implies a continuing tradition.

I agree grrm is free to do what he wants with the idea - but a duel without a code would just be a fight; Brandon could just beat up Petyr and shove him in a pond. Instead, we have a duel.

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, I don't recall them being characterized that way. The four-legged wolves are just wild, and that's the point of the analogy. When Ned worries about Arya dying before her time like Lyanna & Brandon due to "the wolf blood" it's not about being "fired up by injustice". Ned himself is fired up by injustice, but he doesn't have the wolf blood. He lacks Brandon's mirth & his rages.

Maybe? There's a few instances with Ned - 'his wroth was upon him' kind of thing - completely out of his normal character. He did it to teenage Cat when she asked about Jon's mother - which touches on Ned's honour.

[FictionIsntReal]

12 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I agree grrm is free to do what he wants with the idea - but a duel without a code would just be a fight; Brandon could just beat up Petyr and shove him in a pond. Instead, we have a duel.

Distinguish between jus ad bellum & jus in bello. The existence of formalized duels doesn't imply some sort of legal structure to determine whether you can challenge someone to a duel. In fact, duelling remained popular in many societies even after it was officially illegal.

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Maybe? There's a few instances with Ned - 'his wroth was upon him' kind of thing - completely out of his normal character.

Precisely, he's not like Brandon.

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He did it to teenage Cat when she asked about Jon's mother - which touches on Ned's honour.

Ned publicly claims Jon as his bastard. That's relevant for his honor. A private discussion with his wife is another story (although stopping servants from gossiping about him would be relevant to how much he guards his honor).