Dayne Jon

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

I was browsing through the Gaelic dictionary and happened across the word daingean (sounds like "Dayne Jon") and it means "stronghold, enclosure, fortification, marriage, and strong" (Stark means "strong" in several languages)

The Wolf's Den is a daingean, (or a donjon--[Dawn Jon?] / dungeon).  It is a stronghold built by Jon Stark.  I have argued in the past that Ned and Ashara got married at White Harbor and that Ashara stayed at the Wolf's Den while pregnant and gave birth there.

 

The word geanair (sounds like "Jon Ary") means "was conceived, born" and it also means "January" and Borrell said Jon was named after Jon Arryn, and that he was conceived and born somewhere in the region of White Harbor.    Geanam means "sword" and Ned literally gave Ashara the sword Dawn (and figuratively as well).  There is a White Knife in White Harbor, Dawn is a sort of White Knife.

Gion means "will, desire" and Ned says Jon's mom was Wylla (and there is a Wylla at White Harbor, who mentions swearing oaths in the Godswood)  Gionbhair means "January", and right below it gionc means "dog"  (wyll means "ghost")

Two words that sound like "Jon" are synonymous with "Winter," and Jon Snow is the embodiment of Winter.

 

Then I was pondering the significance of Davos the Onion Knight staying at the Wolf's Den, so I searched the word "onion" in the Gaelic dictionary and many of the results are adjacent to entries about Ash trees/ashen and Dawn, ash trees (+ "together with" and "abandoned woman"), or ashen, and a child's baby (+ "an invented story"). 

Ashara and a baby stayed at the Wolf's Den, she and Ned and Wyman invented a story to cover up their marriage, she became an abandoned woman.   Davos the Onion is retracing the journey of Ashara, he is smuggled into White Harbor, and is a dead man staying at the Wolf's Den, his death is faked, and he goes on a secret mission under an assumed identity (which involves Stark children).

 

Oh, and uaim sounds like Wyman, and uaim means "union" "joining together" and "den"  And Wyman married Ned and Ashara at the Wolf's Den.

Davos calls the Wolf's Den a gaol, and gaol means "lover, beloved" in Gaelic, and Ashara is the Sloe-Eyed Maid, which was destroyed by a gale and was carrying saffron (cro in Gaelic). 

Gean means a kind of plum, and a sloe is a plum, and plum means "to sink underwater" and the Sloe-Eyed Maid sunk, as did Ned's ship when he crossed the Bite with the "fisherman's daughter."  And a Snow is a kind of sailing vessel. 

And pruina in Latin means "Snow, winter"

Eirin means "plum" and Jon was supposedly named after "Arryn"--and the words above and below eirin mean "snow" and airne means "sloe" and "nights watch"--and airne is only a slight rearrangement of Arryn. 

So if Jon was really named after an Eirin, and a Gean is a kind of plum, he was doubly named after a sloe-eyed maid. 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

This is pretty cool, and I think good foreshadowing that Jon has some Dayne in him. However just because he does, doesn't mean that N+A=J.

R+L=J works just as well given all of this, because keep in mind, Aegon the Unlikely's mom was a Dayne, so all Targs since have Dayne blood in them.

[Aebram]

This all seems rather tenuous to me. But I haven't read a lot of GRRM's other works or interviews. Does he know the Gaelic language? Does he often consult a Gaelic dictionary when trying to decide the names of his characters?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

I would like that so much! I would prefer Jon being the son of Ned than the son of Rhaegar. Timeline doesn’t work and reasoning doesn’t work. If Ned and Ashara had a child it should be older than Jon and not in the North.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Timeline doesn’t work and reasoning doesn’t work. If Ned and Ashara had a child it should be older than Jon and not in the North.

Isn't it a theory that that is in fact Allyria is Ned's and Ashara's daughter, her masquerading as a trueborn Dayne due to her not being able to be a bastard Stark, less it raise suspicions regarding Jon's identity?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Isn't it a theory that that is in fact Allyria is Ned's and Ashara's daughter, her masquerading as a trueborn Dayne due to her not being able to be a bastard Stark, less it raise suspicions regarding Jon's identity?

I have read that on Twitter and I will not deny that I liked it. A bastard Stark being raised as a trueborn Dayne and a trueborn Targaryen being raised as a bastartd Stark.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

A bastard Stark being raised as a trueborn Dayne and a trueborn Targaryen being raised as a bastartd Stark.

Exactly, it has that great GRRM dramatic irony.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

4 hours ago, Aebram said:

This all seems rather tenuous to me. But I haven't read a lot of GRRM's other works or interviews. Does he know the Gaelic language? Does he often consult a Gaelic dictionary when trying to decide the names of his characters?

I don't think he knows Gaelic, but does use one to come up with names and plot ideas.  I need to sit down and compile all the ones I have found into a list.  Off the top of my head:

tairngearthach means "the Prophesied One," and "promise" (Targaryen)

rabarta means "storm, and fury" (and geangaire [Gendry] and stannad [Stannis] both mean "hammer") roib means "overgrown beard"

adhar means "snow, frost"  robb means "quadruped"  bran means "crow" riachan means "grey"

leannan means "lover"  leanaim means "to pursue"  leanb means "baby"  lean means "sorrow, regret"  liya means "grave, tomb"

tuille means "flood"

duthracht means "zeal" (dothraki)

damhair means "zeal" (damphair) balan means "wooden vessel"

riagloir means "ruler" and I think that is where R'hllor came from

 

[Egged]

People always forget the dark ending not told in Bael’s song: when the head of Bael is brought to the mother by her son (Bael’s son) she jumps out of a tower in grief.

Quote

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

Exactly like Ashara.

And Bael the Bard’s song is totally the Rhaegar+Lyanna story, so the parallel is even stronger.

Then the son supposedly died soon after and his skin was peeled and worn as a cloak.

Ashara is said to have given birth to a stillborn daughter. And Barristan believes Ned (or Brandon, it’s not clear) was the father. Could be. Or not.

If the dark ending to Bael’s story is a continuation of the Rhaegar+Lyanna story, the son of the grieving mother who brings her Bael’s head is Ned Stark bringing news of the death of Rhaegar to Ashara.

Quote

"She killed herself, though," said Arya uncertainly. "Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea."

"So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "but that was for grief, I'd wager. She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning." He shook his head. "Let it lie, my lady. They're dead, all of them. Let it lie . . . and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."

Where is the “skinning to make a skin cloak out of her son parallel” of the story?

Barristan sees Ashara in Daenerys’ eyes, as if Ashara could have been her mother.

Daenerys has memories of a house with a red door and a lemon tree. A kind of tree which grows in Dorne. Darkstar drinks unsweetened lemonwater and his house is next to Starfall.

A stillborn daughter.

Let it lie.

A cloak of skin.

Let it lie.

Quote

"… want to wake the dragon …"

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings.

 

And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

 

"… wake the dragon …"

Daenerys flew.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

For the past year or so every time I go to the used book store I check the dictionaries for the definition of "sloe" and "sloe-eyed" and here are the results. 

Here are the best ones:

• Webster's Collegiate "sloe-eyed: (1867) 1 : having soft dark bluish or purplish-black eyes"
• Oxford Shorter English Dictionary:  " sloe-eyed: having eyes the color of the sloe; dark-eyed (and they give the color of a sloe as blue-black)"
• Encarta World English Dictionary: " sloe-eyed: with dark, almond-shaped eyes [refers to the blue-black color of the fruit]"
• Webster's School Dictionary: "sloe-eyed:  having soft dark bluish or purplish-black eyes"
• Webster's Intermediate Dictionary: "sloe-eyed : having soft dark bluish or purplish-black eyes"
• Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary: "sloe-eyed : having soft dark bluish or purplish-black eyes"
• The New Oxford American Dictionary: "sloe: a small bluish-black fruit . . . sloe-eyed having attractive dark eyes, typically almond shaped"  Hutton, sloe-eyed and blonde, was conventionally pretty"

The rest describe sloes as being blue, purple, and black, and one would take away that sloe-eyed refers to eyes that are dark blue/purple, verging on black.  But there is no mention of sloe-eyes being brown eyes.

 

Sloop is right after sloe-eyed in many dictionaries, and sloop comes from the Dutch word sloep and it is a sailing vessel.  Catelyn almost took a sloop at White Harbor.  And the Sloe-Eyed Maid was a sailing vessel that sank near White Harbor.

Slogan is right next to sloe-eyed in many dictionaries, and they give the etymology as sluagh + gairm, ("war cry")

sluagh sound like "sloe" (and in the Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary, "sluagh" and "sloe" are right next to each other)

gairm means "to crow" in Gaelic.  (In addition to being very close to George's initials GRRM) and Jon is the Lord Crow of an army of crows.  And Jon talks about the importance of having a Lord's voice to issue war-cries, and how he practiced his war cry back at Winterfell.

And the Sloe-Eyed Maid was carrying saffron (cro or crohha), so sloes + crows go together.

One of the meanings of sloe is "something of little or no value" and gion means "an insignificant person" and "small potato" (But the Sloe-Eyed Maid was said to be carrying the most expensive spice in the world.)

Sloes are used to make gin, sloe-gin--> sloe-gion? --> Sloes make Jon.

 

Lastly, the definition of gean mentions "a woman / wife / whore" and there is a lot of talk about whores and mothers and Washerwomen in Davos's stay at the Wolf's Den.  There is a 14 year old boy there who is the son of a whore/wAsherwoman, and Garth's weapons are Lady Lu and Whore. (~lady lemore)

 

[Shy Maid might be a contraction of Sloe-Eyed Maid.]

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

I was just looking up the definition of sluagh and had a breakthrough.

sluagh / slogh (sounds like "sloe") and it means "people, folk, multitude"

and daoine means "many people, populous, numerous"

So slogh means daoine in Gaelic. 

So the sloe is a Dayne.

(and Jon is a grey-eyed ranger from the North like a certain Dunedain hidden prince from LotR)

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

@Egged Ashara died at least half a year before Dany’s birth. There is a much better candidate for being Ashara’s daughter instead of Dany in Starfall.

[Egged]

5 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

@Egged Ashara died at least half a year before Dany’s birth. There is a much better candidate for being Ashara’s daughter instead of Dany in Starfall.

But I didn't say she was Ashara's daughter. Babies go in swords. Fire and blood. Dawn was alive with light.

Quote

"I'm falling!"

Every flight begins with a fall, the crow said. Look down.

Quote

"She killed herself, though," said Arya uncertainly. "Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea."

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

@Egged Ashara died at least half a year before Dany’s birth. There is a much better candidate for being Ashara’s daughter instead of Dany in Starfall.

Yes, but reasonable theories about side characters are lame, let's bring out the crackpot about the main ones!!!

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

4 hours ago, Egged said:

But I didn't say she was Ashara's daughter. Babies go in swords. Fire and blood. Dawn was alive with light.

 

Both in real world and in ASOIAF it's the other way around. Babies are shish kebabed by swords.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes, but reasonable theories about side characters are lame, let's bring out the crackpot about the main ones!!!

Lets make something that makes no sense and that will be fun!