Septa Lemore = Tytos' mistress?

[Haus Berlin]

ADWD leaves us with a crumbling picture of Lannister stability, as Cersei during her Walk of Atonement hardly finds it in her to draw strength from her ancestry. She and Jaime themselves had seen what became of a man who allegedly never shared women with other men, when they discovered their father with his son’s paramour.

Cersei then had to re-enact the very same punishment Tywin came up with for his own father’s mistress once the woman was seen with Lannister jewelry. Jet, Shae wore Tywin‘s chain when he was Hand. Narratively, it would seem, Tywin is still very much alive through his contradictions and especially the last book time and time again raises the question whom of his children truly comes after him.

A vast amount oft the fandom favours the image of Tyrion not being Tywin’s son over the image of the Lannister twins being Aery’s. Though bits like an affair between Joanna and the prince or his mother‘s laughter over his dead father during Jaime’s vigil are still fresh and undigested. Less and less we are invited to put trust into a big love story between Tywin and his cousin Joanna.

With both characters in question dead, one has to wonder what becomes of such mistrust from a narrative viewpoint with only two books to come. But you came here for Septa Lemore.

 

During Tyrion’s dark exile Septa Lemore and her baths in the sun make for a nice contrast. She is one of the few people dealing with a Lannister under cover heartily - and not being mistrusted because of that. Thinking to have caused his mother’s death at birth, knowing to have played a part in his wife’s misery, Tyrion’s relation to women is deformed and an exception deserves to be noted. Add to that Tyrion‘s (re)transformation into an ape, into a fool earning his late father’s contempt, due to Penny’s influence. Because it is then he crosses ways with a woman whose name is pretty much Lemure. Only because she showed herself naked , she became the mystery she is:

Whose mother is she and why she became pious?

 

But back to Cersei and her re-enactment for a moment. Her forced nakedness during the Walk of Atonement exposed her as the mother she is - stretching marks and all. The only ones with her were Septas. Before Kevan’s death he takes note of a shift in Cersei’s character and many of us surely mistrust this portrayal of piety. Still, through her POV we know how very little is left of the woman who was perfect Disney villian material without her second thoughts. With them, she may look for a home game. She could find a very special Septa there, also looking for her home.

 

Based on the few things above here is my head canon of our mysterious Septa: Lemore is Tytos‘ mistress who was paraded through Lannisport on account of Tywin. Or she was spared that humiliation by swapping places with one of the accompanying septas. One way or the other she became Tywin’s mistress and went to King’s Landing with him. As Septa she presumably had an easier time there than proud Joanna. Since quite a many of this fandom suspect Joanna of bearing Aerys‘ child, Tywin may have thought the same and caused his wife’s death. Following ASOIAF-verse’s phenotypes Tyrion would not be the child of two blonde parents. This rules out Aerys and Joanna as well as Tywin and Joanna. Lemore is described with dark hair and this is what she has to tell Tyrion being at odds with his appearance:

„The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor.“

Yes, I think Tyrion has found his mother, some love and rest to speculation about the true son of Tywin Lannister.

[Loose Bolt]

Tytos Lannister died 267 AC so his mistress would be "now" over 50 years old unless he was a pedophile. Or Septa Lemore is almost certainly too young to be ex mistress of previous lord of the Rock.

[Haus Berlin]

Thanks, I thought about that too. Just wasn’t sure if the 5 year gap or something else messed up timelines.

Tyrion thinks of Lemore as being past forty so there is room for interpretation.

[corbon]

On 3/1/2021 at 7:02 AM, Haus Berlin said:

Based on the few things above here is my head canon of our mysterious Septa: Lemore is Tytos‘ mistress who was paraded through Lannisport on account of Tywin.

One of the important clues about Lemore's identity is that Jon Connington, as proud and noble (and by default bigoted in that particular way) as you could find, thinks of Lemore, inside his own head where he has no need for deception, as "Lady" Lemore - once they are back in Westeros and she has dropped the religieous pretence.

Thus she is almost certainly a westerosi noblewoman.

Tytos' mistress was the daughter of a candlemaker.

[Frey family reunion]

19 hours ago, corbon said:

One of the important clues about Lemore's identity is that Jon Connington, as proud and noble (and by default bigoted in that particular way) as you could find, thinks of Lemore, inside his own head where he has no need for deception, as "Lady" Lemore - once they are back in Westeros and she has dropped the religieous pretence.

Thus she is almost certainly a westerosi noblewoman.

Tytos' mistress was the daughter of a candlemaker.

Yea, I agree with this.   I suppose you could argue that Connington was just showing his respect to Lemore, but I tend to agree that Lemore is at least related to a noble Westerosi family.  

My own personal suspicion is that Lady Lemore may be the Whent daughter from the Harrenhal tourney.  The Whents do seem to be a very pious family, assuming that Cat's religious convictions came from her mother.  

[John Suburbs]

On 2/28/2021 at 1:02 PM, Haus Berlin said:

ADWD leaves us with a crumbling picture of Lannister stability, as Cersei during her Walk of Atonement hardly finds it in her to draw strength from her ancestry. She and Jaime themselves had seen what became of a man who allegedly never shared women with other men, when they discovered their father with his son’s paramour.

Cersei then had to re-enact the very same punishment Tywin came up with for his own father’s mistress once the woman was seen with Lannister jewelry. Jet, Shae wore Tywin‘s chain when he was Hand. Narratively, it would seem, Tywin is still very much alive through his contradictions and especially the last book time and time again raises the question whom of his children truly comes after him.

A vast amount oft the fandom favours the image of Tyrion not being Tywin’s son over the image of the Lannister twins being Aery’s. Though bits like an affair between Joanna and the prince or his mother‘s laughter over his dead father during Jaime’s vigil are still fresh and undigested. Less and less we are invited to put trust into a big love story between Tywin and his cousin Joanna.

With both characters in question dead, one has to wonder what becomes of such mistrust from a narrative viewpoint with only two books to come. But you came here for Septa Lemore.

 

During Tyrion’s dark exile Septa Lemore and her baths in the sun make for a nice contrast. She is one of the few people dealing with a Lannister under cover heartily - and not being mistrusted because of that. Thinking to have caused his mother’s death at birth, knowing to have played a part in his wife’s misery, Tyrion’s relation to women is deformed and an exception deserves to be noted. Add to that Tyrion‘s (re)transformation into an ape, into a fool earning his late father’s contempt, due to Penny’s influence. Because it is then he crosses ways with a woman whose name is pretty much Lemure. Only because she showed herself naked , she became the mystery she is:

Whose mother is she and why she became pious?

 

But back to Cersei and her re-enactment for a moment. Her forced nakedness during the Walk of Atonement exposed her as the mother she is - stretching marks and all. The only ones with her were Septas. Before Kevan’s death he takes note of a shift in Cersei’s character and many of us surely mistrust this portrayal of piety. Still, through her POV we know how very little is left of the woman who was perfect Disney villian material without her second thoughts. With them, she may look for a home game. She could find a very special Septa there, also looking for her home.

 

Based on the few things above here is my head canon of our mysterious Septa: Lemore is Tytos‘ mistress who was paraded through Lannisport on account of Tywin. Or she was spared that humiliation by swapping places with one of the accompanying septas. One way or the other she became Tywin’s mistress and went to King’s Landing with him. As Septa she presumably had an easier time there than proud Joanna. Since quite a many of this fandom suspect Joanna of bearing Aerys‘ child, Tywin may have thought the same and caused his wife’s death. Following ASOIAF-verse’s phenotypes Tyrion would not be the child of two blonde parents. This rules out Aerys and Joanna as well as Tywin and Joanna. Lemore is described with dark hair and this is what she has to tell Tyrion being at odds with his appearance:

„The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor.“

Yes, I think Tyrion has found his mother, some love and rest to speculation about the true son of Tywin Lannister.

Not bad. My HC is that Tytos' girlfriend was the witch-priestess wife of the spice trader (quite possibly Shiera Seastar) who used the same love potion on Tytos that she did on the spicer. With Tytos under her control, she had him ennoble her son, the first Spicer Lord. Then Tywin comes along and walk-shames her through the city, which is irrelevant to her because she is already an old woman glamouring herself to be young and beautiful. Eventually, she winds up as the half-mad crone on the streets of Lannisport who tells fortunes and sells love potions.

Moving forward, however, Sybelle uses the same love potion to snare Gawen Westerling, who showed "more honor than sense" in marrying a woman so far below his station. And then Sybelle dosed Robb with the same potion in order to guarantee his marriage to Jeyne, in accordance to her agreement with Tywin.

I don't know who Lemore really is, or even if she is anyone other than Septa Lemore. I've read theories that she is everyone from Wenda the White Fawn to Mellario of Norvos, but I honestly can't see any literary purpose for her to be a secret identity.

[corbon]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, I agree with this.   

 

Note to others: this is one of those "those two disagree on almost everything, so when they agree..." moments. 

 

 

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't know who Lemore really is, or even if she is anyone other than Septa Lemore. I've read theories that she is everyone from Wenda the White Fawn to Mellario of Norvos, but I honestly can't see any literary purpose for her to be a secret identity.

Its not that there has to be a 'literary purpose', its that its been rammed down our throat that she has one. I guess you could call consistency a literary purpose? 

- The author explicitly tells us she has secrets!

Quote

 

Young Griff gave his father a stubborn look. "Lemore knows where her cabin is. I want to stay."

"We are sworn to protect you," Lemore said softly.

 

 

 - A nameless commoner is able to argue with Jon Connington about the direction of their grand conspiracy despite him nominally being in charge?

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"You are not the only one who needs must hide".

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"We have gone to great lengths to keep Prince Aegon hidden all these years," Lemore reminded him."

 - JonCon thinks of her as "Lady" Lemore?

Who was in the conspiracy in the pre Jon-Con years? He wasn't brought into the fold for several years after his exile, until he left the Golden Company.
Who had charge of baby fAegon in the pre Jon-Con years? A nobody septa?
 

[Frey family reunion]

32 minutes ago, corbon said:

Note to others: this is one of those "those two disagree on almost everything, so when they agree..." moments. 

 

Ha.  To be fair I don't disagree with you on everything.  It's just when I engage you, it's usually to disagree with you on something.  

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, corbon said:

Its not that there has to be a 'literary purpose', its that its been rammed down our throat that she has one. I guess you could call consistency a literary purpose? 

- The author explicitly tells us she has secrets!

 

 - A nameless commoner is able to argue with Jon Connington about the direction of their grand conspiracy despite him nominally being in charge?

 - JonCon thinks of her as "Lady" Lemore?

Who was in the conspiracy in the pre Jon-Con years? He wasn't brought into the fold for several years after his exile, until he left the Golden Company.
Who had charge of baby fAegon in the pre Jon-Con years? A nobody septa?
 

Yeah, I know, the characters in the book are living real lives, not a story. But I take the "We are sworn to protect you" as referring to the group on the boat, not some grander conspiracy. But who knows?

She's not a nameless commoner. She is the woman selected by Illyrio to instruct Aegon in the faith and to protect him in the process. When she feels that JC is placing him in jeopardy, she'll say so.

I'm certain she is a lady of some sort, and she's obviously from Westeros. Ladies become septas quite frequently. She is clearly not a nobody, I just don't see any reason to jump to the conclusion that she is someone who has been mentioned before. Her name could be Lemore, she's a trusted confidant of Illyrio, and she knows enough about the faith to pass as a septa. But again, who knows?

 

[Aebram]

53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm certain she is a lady of some sort, and she's obviously from Westeros. Ladies become septas quite frequently. She is clearly not a nobody, I just don't see any reason to jump to the conclusion that she is someone who has been mentioned before.

During his riverboat journey, Tyrion studies and thinks about all his companions, trying to discern their secrets.  He succeeds with Connington and (f)Aegon.  He sort-of succeeds with Duckfield, Yandry, and Ysilla, in that he decides they are just who they say they are.  He doesn't succeed with Lemore, but the way he studies her is a strong hint that she is Someone Else in disguise.  

Haldon may be another mystery waiting to be solved.  My personal hunch is that he has an interesting back story (how does someone even become a half-maester?); but he is not an importsnt, already-mentioned character.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yeah, I know, the characters in the book are living real lives, not a story. But I take the "We are sworn to protect you" as referring to the group on the boat, not some grander conspiracy. But who knows?

The point there is that by using 'we', she includes herself as someone sworn to protect him. Between that and the way she argues with JonCon, plus the 'Lady' thing, its clear that she's a senior conspirator, not a hired flunky. (And why would a hired religieous educator be sworn to 'protect' their charge compared to the warriors etc around him?)

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

She's not a nameless commoner. She is the woman selected by Illyrio to instruct Aegon in the faith and to protect him in the process. When she feels that JC is placing him in jeopardy, she'll say so.

Thats not the place of a hired flunky, to argue with the boss, a former Hand of the King. Nor is it the place of a nun-tutor to 'protect' when he has other protectors.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm certain she is a lady of some sort, and she's obviously from Westeros. Ladies become septas quite frequently. She is clearly not a nobody, I just don't see any reason to jump to the conclusion that she is someone who has been mentioned before. Her name could be Lemore, she's a trusted confidant of Illyrio, and she knows enough about the faith to pass as a septa. But again, who knows?

If she's a senior conspirator, senior enough to argue with JonCon who is the nominal boss of their group, and a westerosi lady, then the chances we haven't heard of her are slim.
That idea also answers the 'who was with fAegon before JonCon was recruited' question. Lemore, most likely. That would make her senior to him, conspiracy wise, enough that she can argue even though he's 'operationally' in charge. And if she was in the conspiracy from the start, then she's likely someone we've heard of, someone close to Rhaegar or his court, someone with enough 'social' standing in JonCon's mind that her opinion counts.

1 hour ago, Aebram said:

During his riverboat journey, Tyrion studies and thinks about all his companions, trying to discern their secrets.  He succeeds with Connington and (f)Aegon.  He sort-of succeeds with Duckfield, Yandry, and Ysilla, in that he decides they are just who they say they are.  He doesn't succeed with Lemore, but the way he studies her is a strong hint that she is Someone Else in disguise.  

Actually, he doesn't try with Lemore. 

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Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.

Later, he suddenly decides she's important

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"Even the bravest of your forebears kept his Kingsguard close about him in times of peril." Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

but he goes straight from that thought to the cyvasse game with Young Griff, and that same evening goes to Selhorys with Haldon and is captured by Mormont. So he never actually has time to start thinking about the questions he asked himself here.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Aebram said:

During his riverboat journey, Tyrion studies and thinks about all his companions, trying to discern their secrets.  He succeeds with Connington and (f)Aegon.  He sort-of succeeds with Duckfield, Yandry, and Ysilla, in that he decides they are just who they say they are.  He doesn't succeed with Lemore, but the way he studies her is a strong hint that she is Someone Else in disguise.  

Haldon may be another mystery waiting to be solved.  My personal hunch is that he has an interesting back story (how does someone even become a half-maester?); but he is not an importsnt, already-mentioned character.

Yeah, like I said, it's possible. I just don't see any need for it, especially if we are about to inundated with characters who are actually secret people from the past: Mance, Varys, Illyrio, The Sailor's Wife, Qyburn . . . It's just too much IMO. And if she does turn out to be Mellaria or Johanna or someone else, so what? So there's a conspiracy here. We already know that.

[Megorova]

Septa Lemore is Lady Jeyne Swann, fAegon's mother. She was selected by Golden Company to become the mother of a Blackfyre that will become the Promised Prince, a Blackfyre who will finally succeed in seizing Iron Throne. He was conceived at the Kingswood on the same night when the real Aegon was conceived by Elia and Rhaegar at King's Landing. fAegon's father is Barristan Selmy, whose mother was Aenys Blackfyre's daughter. Jeyne's unnamed septa was Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour (Shiera is Quaithe and the Three-Eyed Crow), she provided love potion for Jeyne, using which Jeyne seduced Barristan, and afterwards he forgot what happened, he thought that it was just a dream. Lemore is the Perfumed Seneschal, because she and Barristan are parallels to Lady Jonquil and Florian the Fool (fAegon was conceived on April 1st, the Fool's Day). Jonquil is a flower from the same family as narcissus and daffodil. In Medieval ages jonquil oil was used as a base for making perfumes. Daffodil is a flower of Mother Mary. On many icons she is portaited with a nimbus of 12 stars or 12 small daffodils around her head. Dany is a parallel to Mary, the Messiah's mother. And thus Lemore/Jeyne is a parallel to the mother of Biblical Antichrist. fAegon, the mummer's dragon, is the fake Messiah. The real Promised Prince is Jon, and Rhaego (who is totally alive). Lemore from French translates as "blackberries", and in The Sworn Sword novel blackberries are a symbol of Blackfyre-loyalists (Ser Eustas' four sons died in the Blackfyre Rebellion, while fighting for Daemon. There are blackberry bushes on their graves). And in one of Tyrion's chapters, while he and Cersei were discussing Varys, that he is dangerous, they were served a black swan (a she) under blackberry souse.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, corbon said:

The point there is that by using 'we', she includes herself as someone sworn to protect him. Between that and the way she argues with JonCon, plus the 'Lady' thing, its clear that she's a senior conspirator, not a hired flunky. (And why would a hired religieous educator be sworn to 'protect' their charge compared to the warriors etc around him?)

Thats not the place of a hired flunky, to argue with the boss, a former Hand of the King. Nor is it the place of a nun-tutor to 'protect' when he has other protectors.

If she's a senior conspirator, senior enough to argue with JonCon who is the nominal boss of their group, and a westerosi lady, then the chances we haven't heard of her are slim.
That idea also answers the 'who was with fAegon before JonCon was recruited' question. Lemore, most likely. That would make her senior to him, conspiracy wise, enough that she can argue even though he's 'operationally' in charge. And if she was in the conspiracy from the start, then she's likely someone we've heard of, someone close to Rhaegar or his court, someone with enough 'social' standing in JonCon's mind that her opinion counts.

Of course she swore to protect him. Illyrio would not let her join the company if she didn't do that. And yes, she's a senior member of this team, not a hired flunky, but none of this means she is someone from the past. She could be just a trusted confidant of Illyrio.

Again, I don't know where you get the idea that I think she is a "hired flunky." And she's not "arguing with the boss" she is giving him counsel, reminding him of what the plan with Illyrio is. JonCon is not "the boss" in all of this, Illyrio is. And if she is a confidant of Illyrio, her voice should have some sway over JC, even if he is the one who makes the final decision, which he does. In this way, she is, in fact, protecting Aegon.

If there is anything to warrant suspicion of a secret past for Lemore (which, again, she obviously has), it was her earlier comment to Aegon that "You are not the only one who must needs hide." But no, the chances of us not having heard of her before are not slim. She could be any one of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of people, and in the current lifespan of the story we've only heard of 100 or so that cannot be accounted for. So at this point, you are making the argument that SL must be some past character because it would serve a literary purpose, and we've already agreed that that is not a good enough reason for this to be true.

OK, so she may have been with Aegon from the start. She may have greater pull with Illyrio than JC. But it's a huge leap in logic to go from there to, "then she's likely someone we've heard of." All she needs to be placed in this position is Illyrio's trust. Not Aegon's, not Rhaegar's, not JonCon's. just Illyrio.

[corbon]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yeah, like I said, it's possible. I just don't see any need for it, especially if we are about to inundated with characters who are actually secret people from the past: Mance, Varys, Illyrio, The Sailor's Wife, Qyburn . . .

I don't think most of those are likely secret people from the past. Well, maybe Varys (important, though not necessary) and the Sailors wife (unimportant and unnecessary).

But I do think that we can expect a 20(almost)yr old conspiracy to include people who were relevant 20 yrs ago.

Quote

It's just too much IMO. And if she does turn out to be Mellaria or Johanna or someone else, so what? So there's a conspiracy here. We already know that.

Neither Mellario nor Johanna are relevant IMO. The arguments for her to be them primarily consist of "she has to be someone, and some of the clues can be twisted in this direction".

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course she swore to protect him. Illyrio would not let her join the company if she didn't do that.

There's protection and there's protection. You don't have a tutor-nun swearing to provide physical protection when there are fighters doing that sort of protection. But thats the context of her use. The only time you expect that level of devotion from a non-combatant is someone with a personal stake.
This conspiracy is personal for Lemore. Not just the boy as a boy, but something deeper. IMO of course.

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And yes, she's a senior member of this team, not a hired flunky, but none of this means she is someone from the past. She could be just a trusted confidant of Illyrio.

Doesn't work in the context of JonCon. A "senior confidant of Illyrio" is literally just a flunky to JonCon. He's the former Hand of the King, a friend of Rhaegar, with a personal mission to do for the son what he failed to do for the father he loved. JonCon doesn't bow to anyone involved, except, eventually, to Aegon.
She is someone JonCon respects. Someone with relevance and importance in the context of not just Westerosi nobility, but Targaryen court politics. Not Mellario, a foreigner not relevant to the family. Not Johanna Swann, a westerosi nobody who has no real business in Targaryen court politics.

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Again, I don't know where you get the idea that I think she is a "hired flunky." And she's not "arguing with the boss" she is giving him counsel, reminding him of what the plan with Illyrio is. JonCon is not "the boss" in all of this, Illyrio is.

It may have been that way originally, but if you look at it closely, thats not the reality on the ground. JonCon is now the boss. JonCon makes decisions, JonCon changes the plan as he sees fit. Illyrio may have set it up, may be a (the) leading plotter and/or financier, but as far as JonCon is concerned, this is now his quest to see Rhaegar's son to Kingship, to do for the son what he failed to do for the father he loved. 

You have to think from inside the characters. Look at who JonCon is, what he comes from, how he acts. 

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And if she is a confidant of Illyrio, her voice should have some sway over JC,

I don't think so at all. I think she has sway because JonCon respects her for who she is, not because she's Illyrio's tool.

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even if he is the one who makes the final decision, which he does.

Right. He does. Not Illyrio. Not Illyrio's tool. Which makes him the boss, however it started.

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In this way, she is, in fact, protecting Aegon.

Indeed. But the context she used was physical protection, him going to his cabin and hiding while the others, including her, stayed on watch as they suspected an attack by Stone Men.

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If there is anything to warrant suspicion of a secret past for Lemore (which, again, she obviously has), it was her earlier comment to Aegon that "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

Agreed. This is the strongest piece of data.

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But no, the chances of us not having heard of her before are not slim. She could be any one of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of people, and in the current lifespan of the story we've only heard of 100 or so that cannot be accounted for.

We disagree on this. I think there are too many clues that she is someone with considerably more relevance than it appears, narrowing it down to a small handful at best (not all of which we have met, but I don't see 'new' important characters from the past being added - say a new member of Rhaegar's household we never heard of, for example suddenly coming back into focus in current times).

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So at this point, you are making the argument that SL must be some past character because it would serve a literary purpose, and we've already agreed that that is not a good enough reason for this to be true.

No, we didn't.  I merely said that a literary reason is not why (as in the dominant reason) we decide she has a secret identity, we decide that because GRRM has rammed it down our throats with repeated inferences and almost explicit references.

I guess it depends on what you call a "literary reason". I think 'fulfilling the setup given' is a logical reason, rather than a literary reason but I guess it could be described as literary. I guess I'm not really sure what a 'literary reason' would be defined as in a way. 

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OK, so she may have been with Aegon from the start. She may have greater pull with Illyrio than JC. But it's a huge leap in logic to go from there to, "then she's likely someone we've heard of." All she needs to be placed in this position is Illyrio's trust. Not Aegon's, not Rhaegar's, not JonCon's. just Illyrio.

Well, we can agree to disagree on that point (and most I guess, I'm just trying to put across my views clearly). I think that she has JonCon's trust and respect, and I don't think that comes from just having high pull with Illyrio. I think it comes from who she is and has nothing to do with Illyrio at all. Because thats what I see in JonCon's character, past and present.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, corbon said:

There's protection and there's protection. You don't have a tutor-nun swearing to provide physical protection when there are fighters doing that sort of protection. But thats the context of her use. The only time you expect that level of devotion from a non-combatant is someone with a personal stake.
This conspiracy is personal for Lemore. Not just the boy as a boy, but something deeper. IMO of course.

Doesn't work in the context of JonCon. A "senior confidant of Illyrio" is literally just a flunky to JonCon. He's the former Hand of the King, a friend of Rhaegar, with a personal mission to do for the son what he failed to do for the father he loved. JonCon doesn't bow to anyone involved, except, eventually, to Aegon.
She is someone JonCon respects. Someone with relevance and importance in the context of not just Westerosi nobility, but Targaryen court politics. Not Mellario, a foreigner not relevant to the family. Not Johanna Swann, a westerosi nobody who has no real business in Targaryen court politics.

It may have been that way originally, but if you look at it closely, thats not the reality on the ground. JonCon is now the boss. JonCon makes decisions, JonCon changes the plan as he sees fit. Illyrio may have set it up, may be a (the) leading plotter and/or financier, but as far as JonCon is concerned, this is now his quest to see Rhaegar's son to Kingship, to do for the son what he failed to do for the father he loved. 

You have to think from inside the characters. Look at who JonCon is, what he comes from, how he acts.

I don't think so at all. I think she has sway because JonCon respects her for who she is, not because she's Illyrio's tool.

Right. He does. Not Illyrio. Not Illyrio's tool. Which makes him the boss, however it started.

Indeed. But the context she used was physical protection, him going to his cabin and hiding while the others, including her, stayed on watch as they suspected an attack by Stone Men.

Agreed. This is the strongest piece of data.

We disagree on this. I think there are too many clues that she is someone with considerably more relevance than it appears, narrowing it down to a small handful at best (not all of which we have met, but I don't see 'new' important characters from the past being added - say a new member of Rhaegar's household we never heard of, for example suddenly coming back into focus in current times).

No, we didn't.  I merely said that a literary reason is not why (as in the dominant reason) we decide she has a secret identity, we decide that because GRRM has rammed it down our throats with repeated inferences and almost explicit references.

I guess it depends on what you call a "literary reason". I think 'fulfilling the setup given' is a logical reason, rather than a literary reason but I guess it could be described as literary. I guess I'm not really sure what a 'literary reason' would be defined as in a way. 

Well, we can agree to disagree on that point (and most I guess, I'm just trying to put across my views clearly). I think that she has JonCon's trust and respect, and I don't think that comes from just having high pull with Illyrio. I think it comes from who she is and has nothing to do with Illyrio at all. Because thats what I see in JonCon's character, past and present.

Again, corb, you're jumping to extreme conclusion here. Why would Lemore have to promise him physical protection as if she was a knight? She's a woman. She will protect him any way she can, including from folly and bad counsel. In what way can anything she's done be construed as "the context of her use"? Where, when and how has she ever picked up a weapon to protect him? And in what way do you support the idea that this is all personal for her? It might be, but only because she's been raising him since he was a little baby.

JonCon is also the late-comer to this little scheme. If Lemore has been with Aegon all along, than he will know she's not just some flunky but someone very important to Illyrio. JonCon won't bow to anyone except Aegon? How about Illyrio, represented by Illyrio's most trusted member of the group? And even then, when exactly did he bow to her?

Of course she is someone Jon respects, but again you take wild leaps in logic to say this respect most stem from some prior connection to Westeros. He might just respect her because she is smart, capable and trusted by Illyrio and she's been knee-deep in this plan since the very beginning.

In what way did Jon change the plan as he saw fit? Most likely it was Aegon's decision to go to Westeros, not Jon's. And this naturally would require revealing him to the GC. It was JonCon who came around to Aegon's wishes, not the other way around. 

She is not "Illyrio's tool." You keep couching all of this through the narrow lens of your head canon. She is Illyrio's voice in this group. On the one hand you say he's in charge and can do as he pleases, but on the other she is a woman that he highly respects. Which is it? And when you look at his inner thoughts just before leaving to meet with the GC, it's pretty clear that at that point he doesn't respect her at all.

Nonsense. In no way does SL imply she is Aegon's physical protection. He is supposed to take her back to her cabin. I'm sure if it came to it, she would give her life for his, but this hardly implies that her job is to provide physical protection. There are four men and one woman on deck capable of doing that.

Well, you've already rejected her as Johanna or Mellario, so I'd be curious to know who you think she is. What setup has there been for her to be someone already mentioned? I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying there is no indication, or reason, for this to be so.

So even when confronted with a smart, capable woman, JonCon will still treat her with scorn unless she has some noble background? I think you've badly misread his character. But, viva la D. 

 

 

 

[corbon]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, corb, you're jumping to extreme conclusion here. Why would Lemore have to promise him physical protection as if she was a knight? She's a woman. She will protect him any way she can, including from folly and bad counsel. In what way can anything she's done be construed as "the context of her use"? Where, when and how has she ever picked up a weapon to protect him?

ts not that she'd have to, its that she did.
You have to read beyond (before) the one line. "We are sworn to protect you" is directly used in the context of YG hiding in the cabin while the others face the possibility of a Stone Men attack. And she included herself. We not they.

Quote

Ahead of them, the bridge grew larger. The Bridge of Dream, Griff called it, but this dream was smashed and broken. Pale stone arches marched off into the fog, reaching from the Palace of Sorrow to the river's western bank. Half of them had collapsed, pulled down by the weight of the grey moss that draped them and the thick black vines that snaked upward from the water. The broad wooden span of the bridge had rotted through, but some of the lamps that lined the way were still aglow. As the Shy Maid drew closer, Tyrion could see the shapes of stone men moving in the light, shuffling aimlessly around the lamps like slow grey moths. Some were naked, others clad in shrouds.Griff drew his longsword. "Yollo, light the torches. Lad, take Lemore back to her cabin and stay with her."

Young Griff gave his father a stubborn look. "Lemore knows where her cabin is. I want to stay."

"We are sworn to protect you," Lemore said softly.

Although she is not drawing arms here directly, thats the context of the protection she mentions and she includes herself in the protectors. She is sworn to protect him, with her life if necessary.

Quote

And in what way do you support the idea that this is all personal for her? It might be, but only because she's been raising him since he was a little baby.

I think she'd place her life on the line per her oath, and one doesn't do that for other people's goals, one does it for ones own goals.
If it was just because of her closeness to the child as a mother figure, then her goal would be his safety and happiness, not Kingship.

Thats her side.

Quote

JonCon is also the late-comer to this little scheme. If Lemore has been with Aegon all along, than he will know she's not just some flunky but someone very important to Illyrio. JonCon won't bow to anyone except Aegon? How about Illyrio, represented by Illyrio's most trusted member of the group? And even then, when exactly did he bow to her?

You seem to be arguing against yourself? 
We agree, JonCon is the latecomer.
We also agree, JonCon does not bow to her, for all he treats her with respect. Or Illyrio (I'm not sure if you agree, but its unequivocal in the text), though he had to (metaphorically at least) for a time.
We agree, per your previous post, JonCon made the decision to change the plan and did it against her/Illyrio's plotting.

Therefore JonCon is effectively the boss, at least in his own mind, bowing to no one, even if it is supposedly Illyrio's (and even thats a supposition - we know Illyrio is the financier, and in it before JonCon, but we don't truly know for sure who the drivers are) conspiracy that he's been brought into.

And who is Illyrio to JonCon? A tool, no more. A rich, fat, foolish, foreigner. No more. Nothing to do with the things JonCon values. JonCon danced to Illyrio's tune while he needed to, but he no longer feels the need to and is his own man openly now.

Quote

"That was when we believed the girl was coming west. Our dragon queen has burned that plan to ash, and thanks to that fat fool in Pentos, we have grasped the she-dragon by the tail and burned our fingers to the bone."

"Illyrio could not have been expected to know that the girl would choose to remain at Slaver's Bay."

"No more than he knew that the Beggar King would die young, or that Khal Drogo would follow him into the grave. Very little of what the fat man has anticipated has come to pass." Griff slapped the hilt of his longsword with a gloved hand. "I have danced to the fat man's pipes for years, Lemore. What has it availed us? The prince is a man grown. His time is—"

And if JonCon thinks himself more important in the greater scheme than Illyrio, never mind who was there first, and sees Illyrio as little more than a tool, then if Lemore is no more than Illyrio's representative, then she's not worthy of respect either. But he gives her that respect, allowing her to argue with him and having no issue with her riding alongside the Prince in Westeros.

Therefore, backing up 'her side' we have JonCon treating her with respect (especially later) while he has no respect for her apparent 'boss'. And as shown below, JonCon is very status conscious and treats those without status as tools. So JonCon showing Lemore respect indicates she has status, social status in Westeros, independent of Illyrio. Thats his side. 

Quote

Of course she is someone Jon respects, but again you take wild leaps in logic to say this respect most stem from some prior connection to Westeros. He might just respect her because she is smart, capable and trusted by Illyrio and she's been knee-deep in this plan since the very beginning.

No. JonCon holds Illyrio in disdain. He danced to Illyrio's tune for a while out of necessity, but he reveals his true feelings once he feels he no longer needs to.
So any respect that JonCon holds for Lemore is inherent from her, not from her attachment to Illyrio.

IMO, JonCon's respect requires both status and competence. Thats his character, an arrogant, aggressive Lordling, friend (in his mind) to the crown prince who thinks of himself as more than he is (was), tempered by time and experience and need, but the formed character remains. It shows in how he thinks of Duck, for example, not worthy of the KG due to his low birth.

Quote

A solid man, and true, Connington thought as he watched Duck dismount, but not worthy of the Kingsguard. 

 

Quote

In what way did Jon change the plan as he saw fit? Most likely it was Aegon's decision to go to Westeros, not Jon's. And this naturally would require revealing him to the GC. It was JonCon who came around to Aegon's wishes, not the other way around. 

If JonCon didn't agree with Aegon, he would have scotched the plan, period. The idea might have come from Aegon (by way of Tyrion), but the decision was undoubtedly JonCons. Its very clear that he is the leader of their party, not Aegon, at that stage at least.
Only after they land in Westeros (or maybe once he's declared to the Golden Company), effectively starting the campaign to make fAegon king, does fAegon have any actual power. IMO only because he can't be declared Prince and be supposed to lead everyone yet be over-ruled by his advisors at every turn.

Quote

She is not "Illyrio's tool." You keep couching all of this through the narrow lens of your head canon. She is Illyrio's voice in this group.

Potato, potaato. If she is no more than Illyrio's voice then she is Illyrio's tool. The only way she is not just Illyrio's tool is if she has some independent standing in the conspiracy, standing that JonCon respects. And as we see with Duck, that requires relevant social standing.

Quote

On the one hand you say he's in charge and can do as he pleases, but on the other she is a woman that he highly respects. Which is it?

Both. Whats so difficult about that? She has standing and he respects her, and he's in charge and does what he sees fit, against her advice. Whats the conflict here? 

Quote

And when you look at his inner thoughts just before leaving to meet with the GC, it's pretty clear that at that point he doesn't respect her at all.

Do you mean this?

Quote

So be it. He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that. No amount of prayer would put him on the Iron Throne, however. That was Griff's task. He had failed Prince Rhaegar once. He would not fail his son, not whilst life remained in his body.

Thats not an indication of disrespect. Its an indication that he outranks her, at least in his own head and that her task is different to his.
Yet even though her task is over, she remains with the group, and is styled "Lady" in his head and rides with the Prince. Thats not a position for a foreigner's voice with no Westerosi status.

Quote

Nonsense. In no way does SL imply she is Aegon's physical protection. He is supposed to take her back to her cabin. I'm sure if it came to it, she would give her life for his, but this hardly implies that her job is to provide physical protection. There are four men and one woman on deck capable of doing that.

Sure. But she didn't say "they have sworn to protect you". She included herself in their vow. She may not fight on the front line, but she is sworn to protect him in exactly the same way they are.
Thats more than is required of a simple nun-tutor.

Quote

Well, you've already rejected her as Johanna or Mellario, so I'd be curious to know who you think she is. What setup has there been for her to be someone already mentioned? I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying there is no indication, or reason, for this to be so.

Lets see.
Female. Attractive. Swimmer. Somehow with 'standing' regarding the Targaryen court and politics. Has been pregnant. Hiding her identity. Westerosi noble. Aged around 20ish at the time of the rebellion. Probably known to Jon Connington back in the day.
Oh but wait, Lemore's eyes aren't... well, we don't know what colour they are. Just that Tyrion didn't pay close attention to them (tits, I'm horny!)  Call that GRRM cheating if you will. Its still a fact. Its also a fact that Tyrion explicitly chose to ignore her secrets and paid her little attention (other than sexually) until very late, just before he left the party. 
And check out who Ashara danced with at Harrenhal.

Purple-eyed Ashara is dead though. Dived off the Palestone Sword (Tower) into the sea. Everyone knows it. There was no body or witnesses, and Ashara may hold many keys to past mysteries, but there's no setup here at all... 
So is Jon Connington. Drank himself to death after leaving the Golden Company. Everyone knows it.
So is baby Aegon. Head bashed in against a wall. Everyone knows it.

Beyond the mere identity, Ashara offers a huge amount of meta-story value.
There is what she knows of the past, that can add insight or even clarity to many details - Ned's pre-Cat lovelife (or not), Jon's mother (or not), ToJ information (or not), Ned's visit to Starfall, things that happened at Harrenhal, or court, or Dragonstone, information about Rhagear, about Elia, about Aegon/fAegon, about what happened between the Sack and when JonCon joined the Conspiracy. Probably more things I've missed. 
Then there is Barristan and what might happen if he met her now. Is that Dany's betrayal for love? Or not.
I don't know what will or will not come out, but one has to admist that the possibilities GRRM could use Ashara=Lemore for are enormous, vastly more than any other option.

And the only thing against this option is the non-data about her eye colour. Period. Thats it.

I think if she's not Ashara, she's simply no more important than Duck, and I think GRRM has put in too much mystery and setup around her for that to be true.

Quote

So even when confronted with a smart, capable woman, JonCon will still treat her with scorn unless she has some noble background? I think you've badly misread his character. But, viva la D. 

I think I've actually read his character, not missed the little clues scattered throughout the books.
Not scorn, no, but as a tool to be used, not a co-conspirator with standing. See Duck, for example. "A solid man and true". But not worthy of the KG according to JonCon. Take Illyrio. A "fat fool" who had to be allowed to call the tune for a while, but is of no true value once used. Or Ysilla and Yandry. Worthy of thanks, and a reward later, but never more than tools and discarded (if remembered) once their part is done. Or Haldon. A servant, a tool. Not a single word of friendliness, just orders. 

JonCon was an arrogant, brash, status conscious, Lordling in his youth, according to those who were at court, and is arrogant and status conscious now, just more cautious and less open about it. 
Yet Lemore is worthy enough to ride beside the Prince openly in Westeros. 

 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, corbon said:

ts not that she'd have to, its that she did.
You have to read beyond (before) the one line. "We are sworn to protect you" is directly used in the context of YG hiding in the cabin while the others face the possibility of a Stone Men attack. And she included herself. We not they.

Although she is not drawing arms here directly, thats the context of the protection she mentions and she includes herself in the protectors. She is sworn to protect him, with her life if necessary.

I think she'd place her life on the line per her oath, and one doesn't do that for other people's goals, one does it for ones own goals.
If it was just because of her closeness to the child as a mother figure, then her goal would be his safety and happiness, not Kingship.

Thats her side.

You seem to be arguing against yourself? 
We agree, JonCon is the latecomer.
We also agree, JonCon does not bow to her, for all he treats her with respect. Or Illyrio (I'm not sure if you agree, but its unequivocal in the text), though he had to (metaphorically at least) for a time.
We agree, per your previous post, JonCon made the decision to change the plan and did it against her/Illyrio's plotting.

Therefore JonCon is effectively the boss, at least in his own mind, bowing to no one, even if it is supposedly Illyrio's (and even thats a supposition - we know Illyrio is the financier, and in it before JonCon, but we don't truly know for sure who the drivers are) conspiracy that he's been brought into.

And who is Illyrio to JonCon? A tool, no more. A rich, fat, foolish, foreigner. No more. Nothing to do with the things JonCon values. JonCon danced to Illyrio's tune while he needed to, but he no longer feels the need to and is his own man openly now.

And if JonCon thinks himself more important in the greater scheme than Illyrio, never mind who was there first, and sees Illyrio as little more than a tool, then if Lemore is no more than Illyrio's representative, then she's not worthy of respect either. But he gives her that respect, allowing her to argue with him and having no issue with her riding alongside the Prince in Westeros.

Therefore, backing up 'her side' we have JonCon treating her with respect (especially later) while he has no respect for her apparent 'boss'. And as shown below, JonCon is very status conscious and treats those without status as tools. So JonCon showing Lemore respect indicates she has status, social status in Westeros, independent of Illyrio. Thats his side. 

No. JonCon holds Illyrio in disdain. He danced to Illyrio's tune for a while out of necessity, but he reveals his true feelings once he feels he no longer needs to.
So any respect that JonCon holds for Lemore is inherent from her, not from her attachment to Illyrio.

IMO, JonCon's respect requires both status and competence. Thats his character, an arrogant, aggressive Lordling, friend (in his mind) to the crown prince who thinks of himself as more than he is (was), tempered by time and experience and need, but the formed character remains. It shows in how he thinks of Duck, for example, not worthy of the KG due to his low birth.

 

If JonCon didn't agree with Aegon, he would have scotched the plan, period. The idea might have come from Aegon (by way of Tyrion), but the decision was undoubtedly JonCons. Its very clear that he is the leader of their party, not Aegon, at that stage at least.
Only after they land in Westeros (or maybe once he's declared to the Golden Company), effectively starting the campaign to make fAegon king, does fAegon have any actual power. IMO only because he can't be declared Prince and be supposed to lead everyone yet be over-ruled by his advisors at every turn.

Potato, potaato. If she is no more than Illyrio's voice then she is Illyrio's tool. The only way she is not just Illyrio's tool is if she has some independent standing in the conspiracy, standing that JonCon respects. And as we see with Duck, that requires relevant social standing.

Both. Whats so difficult about that? She has standing and he respects her, and he's in charge and does what he sees fit, against her advice. Whats the conflict here? 

Do you mean this?

Thats not an indication of disrespect. Its an indication that he outranks her, at least in his own head and that her task is different to his.
Yet even though her task is over, she remains with the group, and is styled "Lady" in his head and rides with the Prince. Thats not a position for a foreigner's voice with no Westerosi status.

Sure. But she didn't say "they have sworn to protect you". She included herself in their vow. She may not fight on the front line, but she is sworn to protect him in exactly the same way they are.
Thats more than is required of a simple nun-tutor.

Lets see.
Female. Attractive. Swimmer. Somehow with 'standing' regarding the Targaryen court and politics. Has been pregnant. Hiding her identity. Westerosi noble. Aged around 20ish at the time of the rebellion. Probably known to Jon Connington back in the day.
Oh but wait, Lemore's eyes aren't... well, we don't know what colour they are. Just that Tyrion didn't pay close attention to them (tits, I'm horny!)  Call that GRRM cheating if you will. Its still a fact. Its also a fact that Tyrion explicitly chose to ignore her secrets and paid her little attention (other than sexually) until very late, just before he left the party. 
And check out who Ashara danced with at Harrenhal.

Purple-eyed Ashara is dead though. Dived off the Palestone Sword (Tower) into the sea. Everyone knows it. There was no body or witnesses, and Ashara may hold many keys to past mysteries, but there's no setup here at all... 
So is Jon Connington. Drank himself to death after leaving the Golden Company. Everyone knows it.
So is baby Aegon. Head bashed in against a wall. Everyone knows it.

Beyond the mere identity, Ashara offers a huge amount of meta-story value.
There is what she knows of the past, that can add insight or even clarity to many details - Ned's pre-Cat lovelife (or not), Jon's mother (or not), ToJ information (or not), Ned's visit to Starfall, things that happened at Harrenhal, or court, or Dragonstone, information about Rhagear, about Elia, about Aegon/fAegon, about what happened between the Sack and when JonCon joined the Conspiracy. Probably more things I've missed. 
Then there is Barristan and what might happen if he met her now. Is that Dany's betrayal for love? Or not.
I don't know what will or will not come out, but one has to admist that the possibilities GRRM could use Ashara=Lemore for are enormous, vastly more than any other option.

And the only thing against this option is the non-data about her eye colour. Period. Thats it.

I think if she's not Ashara, she's simply no more important than Duck, and I think GRRM has put in too much mystery and setup around her for that to be true.

I think I've actually read his character, not missed the little clues scattered throughout the books.
Not scorn, no, but as a tool to be used, not a co-conspirator with standing. See Duck, for example. "A solid man and true". But not worthy of the KG according to JonCon. Take Illyrio. A "fat fool" who had to be allowed to call the tune for a while, but is of no true value once used. Or Ysilla and Yandry. Worthy of thanks, and a reward later, but never more than tools and discarded (if remembered) once their part is done. Or Haldon. A servant, a tool. Not a single word of friendliness, just orders. 

JonCon was an arrogant, brash, status conscious, Lordling in his youth, according to those who were at court, and is arrogant and status conscious now, just more cautious and less open about it. 
Yet Lemore is worthy enough to ride beside the Prince openly in Westeros. 

 

Sorry corb, but you have it wrong. Read the scene again. The offer of protection wasnt for YG to hide below while SL stayed on deck to fight off the stonemen. It was when YG was to take SL below while the rest of them did the fighting. It was YG who was protecting SL, not the other way around.

But we seem to be pretty far apart on this, so I'll bid you adieu and happy reading. SL may turn out to be someone from the past, but I would hate for her to be yet another reveal from the long list of others who are supposed to be figures of the past as well. It's going to get very old very quickly.

[Frey family reunion]

On 3/10/2021 at 10:21 AM, Megorova said:

Lemore from French translates as "blackberries", and in The Sworn Sword novel blackberries are a symbol of Blackfyre-loyalists (Ser Eustas' four sons died in the Blackfyre Rebellion, while fighting for Daemon. There are blackberry bushes on their graves). And in one of Tyrion's chapters, while he and Cersei were discussing Varys, that he is dangerous, they were served a black swan (a she) under blackberry souse.

Actually, Lemore translates from Italian as “the blackberries”.    And yes, I’ve heard that theory before equating the Blackfyres and the blackberries.  I’ve also read a pretty compelling theory that the blackberry stands for Bran.  

Of course the symbolism doesn’t have to be specifically limited to any one character or faction.

I stumbled across a biblical parable which GRRM may be referencing in regards to creating a parallel between blackberries (more specifically their plant the bramble) and the idea of being careful when you attempt to create a king:

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Judges 9:7-16

The Parable of the Trees

⁷ Now when they told Jotham, he went and stood on top of Mount Gerizim, and lifted his voice and cried out. And he said to them:

“Listen to me, you men of Shechem,
That God may listen to you!

⁸ “The trees once went forth to anoint a king over them.
And they said to the olive tree,
‘Reign over us!’
⁹ But the olive tree said to them,
‘Should I cease giving my oil,
With which they honor God and men,
And go to sway over trees?’

¹⁰ “Then the trees said to the fig tree,
‘You come and reign over us!’
¹¹ But the fig tree said to them,
‘Should I cease my sweetness and my good fruit,
And go to sway over trees?’

¹² “Then the trees said to the vine,
‘You come and reign over us!’
¹³ But the vine said to them,
‘Should I cease my new wine,
Which cheers both God and men,
And go to sway over trees?’

¹⁴ “Then all the trees said to the bramble,
‘You come and reign over us!’
¹⁵ And the bramble said to the trees,
‘If in truth you anoint me as king over you,
Then come and take shelter in my shade;
But if not, let fire come out of the bramble
And devour the cedars of Lebanon!’

The lesson apparently is to be careful on who you choose to rule over you.  The danger of the bramble becomes two fold.  If you let it rule over you there is a danger that it will envelop you and cut you off from the sun (as a bramble can do to a tree).  Or in the alternative if you don’t is that the bramble will destroy you by fire.

The blackberry bramble is specifically referenced in one of Brienne’s chapters:

Quote

They made a circuit of the walls. The castle had been triangular, with square towers at each corner. Its gates were badly rotted. When Brienne tugged at one, the wood cracked and peeled away in long wet splinters, and half the gate came down on her. She could see more green gloom inside. The forest had breached the walls, and swallowed keep and bailey...

“There has to be a postern gate.”

They found it on the north side of the castle, half-hidden behind a huge blackberry bramble. The berries had all been picked, and half the bush had been hacked down to cut a path to the door. The sight of the broken branches filled Brienne with disquiet...

She shouldered through the blackberries and pulled at a rusted iron ring. The postern door resisted for a moment, then jerked open, its hinges screaming protest. The sound made the hairs on the back of Brienne’s neck stand up.

Not exactly sure what it means, but the reference to the “forest breaching the castle” and finding your way in to a postern gate hidden by a blackberry bramble seems significant.

Oh and speaking of blackberries and postern gates, I’ve recently heard a theory that Faegon may have created an alliance with Edric Storm which he may use to breach Storm’s End.  And if that’s the case it’s kind of interesting that the name of one of Edric Storm’s protectors is Blackberry:

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The Bastard of Nightsong joined them at the cellar door. They walked quickly, across a shadowed yard and down some steps, under the stone tail of a frozen dragon. Lewys the Fishwife and Omer Blackberry waited at the postern gate, two guards bound and trussed at their feet.   “The boat?” Davos asked them.

”It’s there,” Lewis said.  “Four oarsmen.  The fallen is anchored just past the point.  Mad Prendos.”

Davos chuckled.  A ship named after a madman.  Yes that’s fitting.  Salsa had a streak of the pirate’s black humor.

And by the way the Bastard of Nightsong is Rolland Storm.  So we have a bastard named Rolland, and a coconspirator named Blackberry helping protect Edric Storm. And across the sea we have a bastard Rolly and his coconspirator Lemore “the blackberries” helping protect “Aegon”.

[Frey family reunion]

19 hours ago, corbon said:

I think if she's not Ashara, she's simply no more important than Duck, and I think GRRM has put in too much mystery and setup around her for that to be true.

I pretty much agree with you in regards to you debate with Suburbs.  I think like Jon Connington it appears that Septa Lemore probably had a connection with Rhaegar.  I’m not sure that the only possibility is that she has to be Ashara Dayne.  Even though I concede that it’s probably the strongest possibility at this point.

There is probably an intentional parallel with this quote from Lemore:

Quote

“We are sworn to protect you,” Lemore said softly.

With Hightower’s (via Ned’s fever dream):

Quote

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

With Rhaegar’s interest in prophecy and specifically the part his own son was to play in prophecy, I’ve been thinking of Rhaegar less as a Prince and more as a cult leader.  It’s fairly easy to figure out who the men were in his cult.  Arthur Dayne, Jon Connington, Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, Lewyn Martell, and probably Oberyn Martell.  It’s also quite possible that at some point Oswell Whent and Gerold Dayne were drawn in based on their presence at the tower of joy.  It’s a bit harder to tell who the women were who would have been in Rhaegar’s inner circle.

Certainly Elia Martell, and Ashara Dayne.  But I’m not sure that’s all.  It’s possible that the unnamed Whent daughter may have been part depending on how close the Whents were to Rhaegar.  And I wonder a bit about Lynesse Hightower (if in fact Gerold Hightower was in Rhaegar’s circle). I wonder if Varys drew Jorah into the fold through his estranged wife.  

And I have to admit that Megrovia’s suggestion of Jeyne Swann is one that I’ve considered as well.  While we don’t know what her connection would be to Rhaegar at this time, her association, along with the association with her Septa, with the Kingswood Brotherhood is intriguing.  I wonder if Arthur Dayne could have brought Jeyne into the fold after he helped bring the Brotherhood down.  We never did hear what happened to Wenda.  So I wonder if Wenda was protected by Jeyne as her “septa”.  Another daughter from the Swann family, Lady Rahella Smallwood, also enjoys her revolutionaries and has a great-aunt who is a septa in Oldtown.

My issue with it having to be Ashara Dayne isn’t just that Tyrion never takes notice of her eyes.  But that’s part of it.  It also has to do with why would Ashara Dayne have any training in being a Septa.  How would she be qualified to come in and train Young Griff in the religion of the Seven? 

We at least have a specific connection to the ladies of House Swann with septas and we know through Cat that her Whent mother was fairly religious.  

And I do have to admit that the idea of the Shy Maid having both an ugly “Duck” and a beautiful “Swan” is pretty neat wink.