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YeniAy_Ottoman

The Parallel Plot; Jon Snow and Arya Stark

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Hello,

Similar or parallel plots are also included among Martin's writing techniques. He can use this for a variety of reasons. For example; To show how two queens exercise power in a patriarchal universe in parallel with Cersei and Dany. Or he can use it to show what two characters are like when Jon and Theon have similar living conditions, as well as surrendering to their ambition and not surrendering to their ambition.

Or, as in our present topic, he can use to show the depth of the relationship between the two characters and their impact on their stories.

Jon and Arya have an important and deep connection since the first book. We've seen this in a lot of ways, but I think it's also very important that GRRM puts both in similar conditions because he frees them both in this way.

You probably didn't understand what the word "free" means last time I wrote it. Let me explain.

There is a parallel plot development between Arya and Jon. The two got into an organization where they would never marry, have no children, and would leave their families behind completely. These are the things that are demanded of them. Both of them have to spend their entire lives in this organization. Jon Snow is a member of Night's Watch and Arya is an apprentice at the FM house. When Arya completes the training she will be a FM, not a FM at the moment, Martin has made it clear.

First of all, Jon had to be a member of the NW, because that would give him the skills and awareness he would need for the role he was supposed to play in the future. The same goes for Arya.

The problem is that both have to get rid of these organizations in the story. Because they are cooked now, they have to get out of the oven and come to the table. But how? Jon already took an oath. Arya did not, but she will has to take an oath in the future. So she has to left them before it.

Since Jon has already sworn, the only thing that can set him free is "death" And he died. If Arya swears, she will probably have to die to be free, too. There are enough people in our story who die and resurrect, repeating the same plot over and over reduces the strikingness of the event. So Martin has to send Arya out of there otherway. This will most likely be Jon's death. Yes, this second part is more of a theory, but a theory with solid foundation. I will not explain this here, there is already a topic for this. I already took this part from that topic to discuss it more broadly.

Jon died once, and his oath after he was resurrected saves him from staying there as NW. He will be free to leave Night's Watch. And Arya will leave FM before take an oath because of his dead.

Joining two different organizations that demand the same thing ... The reason they to get out of here is each other ... The author uses Arya and Jon for each other as a factor to free both them. I think that's great! It is also very meaningful.

Jon's death was due to Arya. Jon was constantly struggling to save Arya in the last book, and as soon as he finally realized that Arya's life was in danger, he immediately took action and was killed for breaking his vows. Martin used Arya factor to free him. Likewise, Arya will leave Braavos and FM when she hears about Jon's death after learning her FM skills, so she will not have to swear, Arya's identity will not be lost ... Martin will also use Jon factor to free her.

Thank you for read. :)


 


 


 


 


 


 


 

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Jon and Arya will end up romantically involved.  George has been planning this from the very beginning.  Jon won't let a tiny thing like an oath to keep him from Arya.  And we already know about Arya.  She's not one to follow the rules of the House of B&W.  

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21 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Jon and Arya will end up romantically involved.  George has been planning this from the very beginning.  Jon won't let a tiny thing like an oath to keep him from Arya.  And we already know about Arya.  She's not one to follow the rules of the House of B&W.  

I like the fanfiction you have there.

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I assume you mean she's going to leave the FM to investigate and seek revenge against those who killed Jon? Need more details than that, it wouldn't seem plausible given she knows exactly who killed Cat and Ned and hasn't gone to seek revenge against them.

But you're wrong anyway as that's not how her arc is set up. She's not going to turn her back on the FM for revenge or a dead relative, it'll be for love and a living relative. She's no-one because she believes she's all alone, it's when she realises she's not all alone, or that she has the chance to be with someone who knows Arya again that she'll stop wanting to be no-one and become Arya again. It's her pack she yearns for in her dreams.

It'll be to reunite with Sansa that she'll cast off the Faceless Men, but she won't reveal her true self to Sansa and won't become Arya again until she reunites with a returned Jon.

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

She's not going to turn her back on the FM for revenge or a dead relative

I mean tbf, in Mercy I she kinda does.

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean tbf, in Mercy I she kinda does.

Yeah that's a fair point and it certainly does strengthen the argument the actions would be in character.

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Yeah that's a fair point and it certainly does strengthen the argument the actions would be in character.

I mean yes and no.

It shows that specific targeted revenge is Arya's goal, and I do believe she will take part in Red Wedding 2.0.

However that doesn't mean, and actually it disproves the idea that she will have anything to do with either the KL or the Northern plot for a good while. Thematically and narratively, her story, to me at least, seems on a road to converge with Stoneheart.

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19 hours ago, Rondo said:

Jon and Arya will end up romantically involved.  George has been planning this from the very beginning.  Jon won't let a tiny thing like an oath to keep him from Arya.  And we already know about Arya.  She's not one to follow the house of B&W.  

I believe same thing. Arya just wants to learn their skills. 

I see it as a nice detail that Martin uses both characters to set free each other. Predicting that Jon will focus more on Arya after the resurrection would be a strong inference, because after the resurrection, the characters focus on the things they dealt with emotionally before they die. 

GRRM said that the characters who died must have reason to come back. Think of it like some kind of anchor.

Beric had clung to the duty the king had given him before he died, and even if the king died, he was killed while trying to fulfill this duty, and it was this sense of duty that brought him back.

Cat, on the other hand, spent her last days suffering the deaths of her children, and before she died, her son was killed before her eyes. Naturally, it was this pain and the feeling of revenge that brought him back. Before the cat died, she killed the mad frey to get revenge.

GRRM had stated that the deaths of Cat and Jon were similar. Jon spent his last days feeling protective and rescuing Arya. Jon was suffering because of Arya and had taken action to save her but was killed. So if we look at the other two examples; Jon's anchor will be his feelings for Arya, and for this reason, he will be resurrected and thus one of Jon's focal points will be more Arya.

15 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

But you're wrong anyway as that's not how her arc is set up. She's not going to turn her back on the FM for revenge or a dead relative, it'll be for love and a living relative. She's no-one because she believes she's all alone, it's when she realises she's not all alone, or that she has the chance to be with someone who knows Arya again that she'll stop wanting to be no-one and become Arya again. It's her pack she yearns for in her dreams.

It'll be to reunite with Sansa that she'll cast off the Faceless Men, but she won't reveal her true self to Sansa and won't become Arya again until she reunites with a returned Jon.

Pretty interesting theory. How will Arya find out where her sister is? If Arya is no one, how will she care that she has a sister named Sansa? Arya is not a no one, but let's assume it is. A no one has completely lost it's identity. It has no name, identity, family or even gender because it is a no one.

Also, even GRRM said she was not an FM. Arya is still an apprentice. She's not a no one. I don't know why people have trouble understanding this. This is always because of the show. :D

15 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I assume you mean she's going to leave the FM to investigate and seek revenge against those who killed Jon? Need more details than that, it wouldn't seem plausible given she knows exactly who killed Cat and Ned and hasn't gone to seek revenge against them.

 

You can find more information about it. 

 

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15 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean yes and no.

It shows that specific targeted revenge is Arya's goal

It fell into her lap though, she's not motivated to leave the FM to travel the world to achieve this goal. I suppose Mercy could give her the taste for revenge that could set her off in the direction seeking more and drag her out from the FM's control. Or Jon's death as the OP suggests. I believe it will be Sansa in KL, she will fall into Sansa's circle and willingly trade one master for another, forgetting the FM to become Sansa's eyes and ears in KL.

But to be honest I don't think it really matters, it could be any of these and the arc won't change, what matters is the why she will stop being no-one and start being Arya again, that's the crux of the arc.

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Posted (edited)

That's a nice analysis of the parallels between Jon and Arya. Of course, we don't actually know if Jon is dead.

Excuse me for repeating a few points from a previous post: 

  • Real-life people do sometimes recover from multiple stab wounds.
  • Melisandre is present at Castle Black. She foresaw the attack on Jon. Her powers are stronger than usual because of her proximity to the Wall. If she can bring a dead Jon back to life, surely she can prevent a wounded Jon from dying.
  • Having Jon live through the attack might seem like a cliché, like an action-movie hero who runs through a hail of bullets without being hit. But GRRM is known for killing off the good guys, and for having dead characters return to life (sort of). So for him, the cliché is if Jon does in fact die and/or get resurrected. If George wants to surprise us, methinks, it will turn out that Jon didn't die at all.
Edited by Aebram

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On 2/28/2021 at 12:58 PM, Rondo said:

Jon and Arya will end up romantically involved.  George has been planning this from the very beginning.  Jon won't let a tiny thing like an oath to keep him from Arya.  And we already know about Arya.  She's not one to follow the rules of the House of B&W.  

There is a small segment of the fandom that doesn't throw up a bit in their mouths whenever this gets brought up. I just can't see George really feeding this to us. Yes, Jon and Arya are important to each other and yes, the story may someday reveal them to be cousins not siblings, but come on. Arya isn't matured enough to be physically enticing and Jon isn't depraved enough to acknowledge it even if she was. I know we're dealing with youngsters here and 9 times out of 10  their emotions and hormones win out over our morals, but that's not Jon. That's not the character that 5 books have revealed regardless of what a line in a outline said 30 odd years ago.

Some dark reborn Night's King Jon - maybe, but he's not a good guy anymore if that happens.

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On 2/28/2021 at 5:01 PM, chrisdaw said:

I assume you mean she's going to leave the FM to investigate and seek revenge against those who killed Jon? Need more details than that, it wouldn't seem plausible given she knows exactly who killed Cat and Ned and hasn't gone to seek revenge against them.

But you're wrong anyway as that's not how her arc is set up. She's not going to turn her back on the FM for revenge or a dead relative, it'll be for love and a living relative. She's no-one because she believes she's all alone, it's when she realises she's not all alone, or that she has the chance to be with someone who knows Arya again that she'll stop wanting to be no-one and become Arya again. It's her pack she yearns for in her dreams.

It'll be to reunite with Sansa that she'll cast off the Faceless Men, but she won't reveal her true self to Sansa and won't become Arya again until she reunites with a returned Jon.

@chrisdaw The Arya gets Jon to break his vows and Jon gets Arya to break her vows dynamic still works if Arya does it for love of Jon. But yeah I think it would be cooler for Arya to break her vows for love cause its like a redemption if she starts living for something other than revenge. 

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Posted (edited)

Jon and Arya were supposed to be part of a tragic love triangle.  Jon's death threw a wrench on those plans.  At least while they live as humans.  All the social rules will got out the window after they die and become wolves.  Arya's purpose in Jon's arc was always to make him betray his dedication to Westeros and the watch.  That's done.  She can die now.  Jon's was to start the fall of the Night's Watch and he has done that.  They both can die. 

Edited by U. B. Cool

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7 hours ago, Jay21 said:

There is a small segment of the fandom that doesn't throw up a bit in their mouths whenever this gets brought up.

Lol. True though.

7 hours ago, Jay21 said:

I just can't see George really feeding this to us.

The worst part is, he kinda did. I think in AGOT and ACOK he wasn't quite sure where to take the story, which explains all the little disgusting hints towards it, like Jon comparing Ygritte to Arya and how he finds that hot :ack:

I do agree however that there's no chance of it ever happening.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Jay21 said:

There is a small segment of the fandom that doesn't throw up a bit in their mouths whenever this gets brought up. I just can't see George really feeding this to us. Yes, Jon and Arya are important to each other and yes, the story may someday reveal them to be cousins not siblings, but come on. Arya isn't matured enough to be physically enticing and Jon isn't depraved enough to acknowledge it even if she was. I know we're dealing with youngsters here and 9 times out of 10  their emotions and hormones win out over our morals, but that's not Jon. That's not the character that 5 books have revealed regardless of what a line in a outline said 30 odd years ago.

Some dark reborn Night's King Jon - maybe, but he's not a good guy anymore if that happens.

As a Jon fan, I have to express that I disagree with you.

First of all, it is impossible for you to know personalitie of the character difference between Jon mentioned in the letter and Jon in the books. Do you know why? Because instead of talking about the personalities of the characters in the letters, Martin talked about their actions. He didn't mention everything either. There is more than what he talked about in background.

When we look at the things mentioned in the letter and in the books, we are sure; Jon loves his family. Jon goes to the same place for the same reasons as it is written in the books and in the letter. Jon is the lord command. Jon is torn between his family and his vows. Jon's parents are different people. Jon has given Arya the Needle sword, supporting her in her choices. Done, end. There is no more information.

For example, do you know that Jaime was conceived as a complex character from the very beginning? You can't tell by looking at the character in the letter because he looked pure evil in the letter. Whereas Martin explained that he had planned Jaime like this from the very beginning, only some details were revealed at the time of writing, that's all.

In addition, GRRM has repeatedly said that he continues to write the story he started writing in 1991 in the same way. He said he knew from the very beginning how the arcs of the main characters would end. So it is obvious that we will not find much difference between Jon planned by Martin and Jon he is writing now.

The age issue is a problem among fandoms in general, that's true. Martin was going to grow the kids quickly in the first stage, but he couldn't do it. He tried to solve this problem with a five-year jump, but still failed. This is the result. Now he will try something else but didn't mention the details.

As a result, when we look at the story, love and marriage at a young age often appear in the history of asoiaf. In fact, it occurs in the middle ages of our universe. When you enter adolescence in the Middle Ages, in the laws and social perception of that period, you are young people who have reached the age of marriage, not children. If you try to judge that period with the perception of today, it would be wrong. Perhaps 100 years from now, people will see 18-year-olds marrying is immoral. Maybe the age of marriage for them will be 20. We cannot know this from today. But different periods bring different perceptions and conditions. We have to look at each age from its own window. Historians know this very well. As a result, we have to overcome this age problem in the books. "Imagine their age a few years older," said Martin. I tend to do it like this, I recommend it.

Back to ASOIAF ... In Asoiaf, girls bloom at the age of 12. This indicates that the age of marriage has come. There are also much younger marriages. These are political of course. But these are happening. So the people of westeros accept this in their minds and don't see it as immoral.

For example; When Jon heard about the marriage, did he find it immoral for Ramsay's age to marry 11-year-old Arya? No, he just hated it, but not because of age. Or the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion? In fact, he did not comment on that at all. Well, did Cat or Robb comment on that? Yes, it's true they hated this marriage, but considering the age gap between two years old, did they take it immoral? No. If I remember correctly, one of Alysanne's daughters married an elderly Arryn at a very young age. Nobody called it immoral. The girl Quentyn falls in love with is 12 years old. When she blossomed, the prince wanted to marry her. As far as I remember, the girl had done something of her own to attract the prince's attention.

Arya will be 12 years old in the new book. Martin announced that she was going to go to puberty. Reading Mercy POV, one cannot tell that Arya is sexually incapable of using her femininity or reaching sexual maturity. 

Returning to Jon. Already in the letter, Martin explained that there would be love between the two. In other words, the two characters had this background, there is no need discussion on this. He had already said that women like Ygritte were the type of women Jon liked. I do not need to remind the Ygritte-Arya issue. On the other hand, according to Jon, if they are foster, there is no problem with two people who grew up like siblings being in love.

You remember Jon and Ygritte talking in the cave. Does it feel normal for you, Jon to often compare the woman he has sex with to his sister and compare their bodies? Actually, this part is very disgusting. But we see that Jon is doing this disgusting thing. This is Martin's technique of creating a path between the two characters for the future.

It is also pointless to think that people considered good people do not do immoral or bad things. ASOIAF characters are gray and can do immoral things or bad things. Robert, for example, is a rapist and a violent husband, but nobody calls him a villian. Remember that Jon threatens people when necessary. Most recently, he threatened Jon Gilly and the woman's baby with death. This is not a nice thing.

Edited by YeniAy_Ottoman

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10 hours ago, U. B. Cool said:

Jon and Arya were supposed to be part of a tragic love triangle.  Jon's death threw a wrench on those plans.  At least while they live as humans.  All the social rules will got out the window after they die and become wolves.  Arya's purpose in Jon's arc was always to make him betray his dedication to Westeros and the watch.  That's done.  She can die now.  Jon's was to start the fall of the Night's Watch and he has done that.  They both can die. 

Small caveat: animals oppose incest more than humans, the opposition to incest is based on instinct, because it has negative consequences to the species, that's why we are often attracted to people different from us, we are genetically predisposed to do so, and some studies claim we can even smell the genetic similarity and reject it (subconsciouslly ofcourse). And animals do this consciously, they smell their posible partners to be sure they are not related and go search for others. So two sibling wolves wouldn't mate with each other unless there's literally no other choice.

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17 hours ago, Aebram said:

That's a nice analysis of the parallels between Jon and Arya. Of course, we don't actually know if Jon is dead.

Excuse me for repeating a few points from a previous post: 

  • Real-life people do sometimes recover from multiple stab wounds.
  • Melisandre is present at Castle Black. She foresaw the attack on Jon. Her powers are stronger than usual because of her proximity to the Wall. If she can bring a dead Jon back to life, surely she can prevent a wounded Jon from dying.
  • Having Jon live through the attack might seem like a cliché, like an action-movie hero who runs through a hail of bullets without being hit. But GRRM is known for killing off the good guys, and for having dead characters return to life (sort of). So for him, the cliché is if Jon does in fact die and/or get resurrected. If George wants to surprise us, methinks, it will turn out that Jon didn't die at all.

Good point. I guess we've all assumed (even before the TV show) that Jon would be resurrected after dying, but maybe he won't even die in the first place. Its certainly a possibility.

If he is resurrected I don't think it will be as a mere fire wight (like my namesake Beric). There will be more to it I suspect. Maybe it will be Melisandre's magic, the Wall, something special about Jon, who knows.

17 hours ago, Jay21 said:

There is a small segment of the fandom that doesn't throw up a bit in their mouths whenever this gets brought up.

Well they should. In early treatments for the series three decades ago Martin considered having Jon and Arya as an item. I think he, quite wisely, abandoned that long ago. Its not okay. The ick factor is way too strong, for a lot of reasons.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

It is also pointless to think that people considered good people do not do immoral or bad things. ASOIAF characters are gray and can do immoral things or bad things. Robert, for example, is a rapist and a violent husband, but nobody calls him a villian. Remember that Jon threatens people when necessary. Most recently, he threatened Jon Gilly and the woman's baby with death. This is not a nice thing.

I didn't mean to leave that good guy bit on the end of my post yesterday. Obviously irrelevant. 

I don't dispute any of your points. Yes, Ygritte often reminds Jon of Arya, Jon's 'happy place' seems to be his farewell to Arya and his memory of giving her needle (yeah, that's loaded - no argument here).

It's one thing for us to accept that a 12 year old girl is old enough physically to have sex and carry a child and another thing all together to acknowledge a reciprocal, romantic love between said 12 year old girl and her 18 or 19 year old brother (is Jon only 17? 16? doesn't make it acceptable). Furthermore how does this unfold?  Is Jon wildling enough that he doesn't feel he has to marry Arya, they can just do what they want?  Or is he honor bound to treat Ned Stark's daughter like the lady she is and marry her properly. Who attends that wedding? We've seen what the northerners will do to protect Arya from Ramsay, they're going to just sit back and let her bastard half brother have a go at her? 

This is all just too unworkable.  Age means that no matter how they get from 'hello again step sis' to the bedroom, Arya will be Jon's victim. Whatever George originally intended had to have gone out the window with the time jump.

Edited by Jay21
incomplete

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7 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

Jon's 'happy place' seems to be his farewell to Arya and his memory of giving her needle (yeah, that's loaded - no argument here).

Little bit of sick came into my mouth, but it's okay now, I've swallowed it, we'll move on.

9 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

Is Jon wildling enough that he doesn't feel he has to marry Arya, they can just do what they want?

Thinking of wildling "wedding customs"... Again more sick coming into my mouth.

9 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

Whatever George originally intended had to have gone out the window with the time jump.

Pretty much. I think it's one of the many things he's had to trash due to no time jump. I just hope King Bran is one of those too.

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26 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Pretty much. I think it's one of the many things he's had to trash due to no time jump. I just hope King Bran is one of those too.

Thread's not polarizing enough yet, huh? :)

For what it's worth I hope so too.

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