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YeniAy_Ottoman

The Parallel Plot; Jon Snow and Arya Stark

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On 2/28/2021 at 2:43 PM, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Hello,

Similar or parallel plots are also included among Martin's writing techniques. He can use this for a variety of reasons. For example; To show how two queens exercise power in a patriarchal universe in parallel with Cersei and Dany. Or he can use it to show what two characters are like when Jon and Theon have similar living conditions, as well as surrendering to their ambition and not surrendering to their ambition.

Or, as in our present topic, he can use to show the depth of the relationship between the two characters and their impact on their stories.

Jon and Arya have an important and deep connection since the first book. We've seen this in a lot of ways, but I think it's also very important that GRRM puts both in similar conditions because he frees them both in this way.

You probably didn't understand what the word "free" means last time I wrote it. Let me explain.

There is a parallel plot development between Arya and Jon. The two got into an organization where they would never marry, have no children, and would leave their families behind completely. These are the things that are demanded of them. Both of them have to spend their entire lives in this organization. Jon Snow is a member of Night's Watch and Arya is an apprentice at the FM house. When Arya completes the training she will be a FM, not a FM at the moment, Martin has made it clear.

First of all, Jon had to be a member of the NW, because that would give him the skills and awareness he would need for the role he was supposed to play in the future. The same goes for Arya.

The problem is that both have to get rid of these organizations in the story. Because they are cooked now, they have to get out of the oven and come to the table. But how? Jon already took an oath. Arya did not, but she will has to take an oath in the future. So she has to left them before it.

Since Jon has already sworn, the only thing that can set him free is "death" And he died. If Arya swears, she will probably have to die to be free, too. There are enough people in our story who die and resurrect, repeating the same plot over and over reduces the strikingness of the event. So Martin has to send Arya out of there otherway. This will most likely be Jon's death. Yes, this second part is more of a theory, but a theory with solid foundation. I will not explain this here, there is already a topic for this. I already took this part from that topic to discuss it more broadly.

Jon died once, and his oath after he was resurrected saves him from staying there as NW. He will be free to leave Night's Watch. And Arya will leave FM before take an oath because of his dead.

Joining two different organizations that demand the same thing ... The reason they to get out of here is each other ... The author uses Arya and Jon for each other as a factor to free both them. I think that's great! It is also very meaningful.

Jon's death was due to Arya. Jon was constantly struggling to save Arya in the last book, and as soon as he finally realized that Arya's life was in danger, he immediately took action and was killed for breaking his vows. Martin used Arya factor to free him. Likewise, Arya will leave Braavos and FM when she hears about Jon's death after learning her FM skills, so she will not have to swear, Arya's identity will not be lost ... Martin will also use Jon factor to free her.

Thank you for read. :)


 


 


 


 


 


 


 

Arya was what lured Jon away from his vows.  George always intended for this to happen.  It was supposed to be a love triangle.  There is an ongoing discussion on how Jon’s death will cause Arya to break from the Faceless Men.  Arya will lose her sanity and go on a murder binge.  

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14 hours ago, U. B. Cool said:

Arya's purpose in Jon's arc was always to make him betray his dedication to Westeros and the watch.  That's done.  She can die now. 

So you think GRRM invented Arya, one of the most featured characters in the series, just because after 5 books she´d be the reason for another charcter to cross a line ? Nope. She´ll have an important plot of her own. I admit her future arc is very hard to figure out, but I´m 100% sure it will be important in some way.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jay21 said:

It's one thing for us to accept that a 12 year old girl is old enough physically to have sex and carry a child and another thing all together to acknowledge a reciprocal, romantic love between said 12 year old girl and her 18 or 19 year old brother (is Jon only 17? 16? doesn't make it acceptable). Furthermore how does this unfold?  Is Jon wildling enough that he doesn't feel he has to marry Arya, they can just do what they want?  Or is he honor bound to treat Ned Stark's daughter like the lady she is and marry her properly. Who attends that wedding? We've seen what the northerners will do to protect Arya from Ramsay, they're going to just sit back and let her bastard half brother have a go at her? 

This is all just too unworkable.  Age means that no matter how they get from 'hello again step sis' to the bedroom, Arya will be Jon's victim. Whatever George originally intended had to have gone out the window with the time jump.

Since my English is not very good, I may have understood some of the things you wrote incorrectly or incompletely, if so please correct me.

From the perspective of people living in the ASOIAF universe, a 12-year-old girl has reached the age of marriage, have we agreed on the matter? If not, I can give many more examples for this(By the way, when we say "love", I think it is not right to immediately address the issue to sexuality.Because love = is not sex. If sex comes to mind when it comes to love, it's not love, it's something else..

Have we agreed that Jon would feel comfortable in his relationship with Arya, based on the fact that he is the "foster" brother? Because Jon told Ygritte that this is okay, and according to GRRM's plan, Jon fell in love with Arya but was suffering because he thought they were real siblings. They were relieved and free when they found out that Jon's parents were someone else. So, in every way, Jon's personality background is designed in this way.

What is the problem now? Even though Jon and Arya are actually cousins, would the northerners never accept their love and want to stop it because they grew up like siblings? Ok. 

I want to start with the example you gave. The northerners know that Arya is 11 years old and what Ramsay is... Except for some northerners, the rest attended the wedding that day and celebrated this marriage. Logically, Arya is not even old enough to bloom, but they did the wedding night, too. Never mind the northern conspiracy for now, they attended this wedding and let that night. And none of them saw it as a moral issue because it is not like that from their point of view. Their concern is to save Arya and get rid of the Boltons. Despite this, that marriage and night was allowed. So we see that the Arya and Ramsay example we have has nothing to do with any moral taboo. It's about politica and other things.

Now I want to give an example. Alys Karstark. Why do you think Martin added this girl's story to Jon's story? So the only matter was to report Karstark treachery to Stannis? Or so that the Karstark house could support Jon as king of the north in the future? After all, Jon did a favor.Okay, these are valid reasons. However, there was one detail that wasn't needed to be in the Alys story; her marriage with her uncle!

Quote

"Your uncle … would that be Lord Arnolf?"


"He is no lord," Alys said scornfully. "My brother Harry is the rightful lord, and by law I am his heir. A daughter comes before an uncle. Uncle Arnolf is only castellan. He's my great-uncle, actually, my father's uncle. Cregan is his son. I suppose that makes him a cousin, but we always called him uncle. Now they mean to make me call him husband." She made a fist. "Before the war I was betrothed to Daryn Hornwood. We were only waiting till I flowered to be wed, but the Kingslayer killed Daryn in the Whispering Wood. 

( You see they waited for marriage until the girl flowered. But I guess we got over this topic. I pass)

The person Alys to be force married to is Cregan ... Alys has seen him as his uncle over the years and called it that way. But this person is actually her cousin. It means that the northerners do not see this problem. Because Alys and Cragen are actually cousins, it doesn't matter what they saw each other as over the years.

Sound familiar? Two characters who saw and called each other as siblings, but they are actually cousins. 

On the other hand, there are Stark lord in Stark history who married his own niece. Neither did any northerner oppose this.

Tell me now, which northerner will want to stop the wedding of these two, who are actually two cousins? Those who want to stop this would stop it so not as a moral reaction, but for a political cause. Like Bolton thing.

So why is such a detail added to Alys' story? What was the need for this? It is also a character intertwined with Jon's story. Obviously, GRRM is building a road. Jon had likened Alys to Arya a few times too, remember.

You said GRRM gave up on this idea because he couldn't make the 5-year jump? I don't get it wrong, right?

Arya was what lured Jon away from his vows.  George always intended for this to happen.  It was supposed to be a love triangle.  There is an ongoing discussion on how Jon’s death will cause Arya to break from the Faceless Men.  Arya will lose her sanity and go on a murder binge.  

@Widowmaker 811 Why is Arya losing her sanity, I don't understand that? :D 
 

So you think GRRM invented Arya, one of the most featured characters in the series, just because after 5 books she´d be the reason for another charcter to cross a line ? Nope. She´ll have an important plot of her own. I admit her future arc is very hard to figure out, but I´m 100% sure it will be important in some way.

 
 
I agree with you.
 

Everyone has their own favorite character, they usually just care them, their's arc. Sometimes, the characters can be seen as obstacles for other characters by fans. And of course, there are readers who do not generally master the story, and they do not want to think about all the characters. Especially about the characters whose story is unpredictable.

Arya is definitely one of these characters. Whatever the reason, the result does not change at all. Many fans underestimate Arya's story. Such approaches subconsciously reduce the character to the secondary character level. So if someone comes out and declares that Arya is the ice champion, some readers can see this as an "exaggeration". This theory may not be true, but it's not what's important, the thing is; "We do not think Arya will have such an important role." There are people with this psychology. Dany might be AA, Jon is either AA or maybe the Prince Who Promised and Bran are the Last Hero or something. Tyrion is a master mind who is planning everything. But Arya can not have such a role? She cannot be the queen, she cannot be the ruler, she cannot be the champion / hero of something. What could she be? Will Arya be a character that only supports Jon? Is she his protection? Or a character who will kill three or five unnecessary villains?

Arya is one of the big key fives. She's in the big league. Her story is as important as Jon, Tyrion, Dany and Bran. If anyone believes that Arya's role in this story is just killing three or five people and getting revenge ... you haven't understood this story yet and the character.

She has an important and influential role in the upcoming war, as in other big league children. GRRM carefully avoids answering questions about Arya's role.

In general, because Arya's role is unpredictable, something that is not considered much by the readers (except her fans). This inadvertently causes their mind to become a secondary character of Arya because they are just looking at what is currently; A young girl who dreams of revenge and is training become a FM.

If Arya was not one of the big fives but like Jaime, Aegon, Sansa and other characters, okay, this psychological expectation would be normal. The biggest thing we would expect would not have gone beyond the role of the beloved sister who killed Cersei or a similar person and tried to protect and support Jon.

But the reason for the big fives being the big fives is not the throne games but the upcoming war and the actions that will affect the fate of the realm and change its environment. 

Edited by YeniAy_Ottoman

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10 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

From the perspective of people living in the ASOIAF universe, a 12-year-old girl has reached the age of marriage, have we agreed on the matter? 

Sure

 

10 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

By the way, when we say "love", I think it is not right to immediately address the issue to sexuality.Because love = is not sex. If sex comes to mind when it comes to love, it's not love, it's something else..

What are we talking about here?  If you're pulling some 'I only meant platonic love' make it clear now. What I'm talking about is a scenario where Jon and Arya are reunited and a hug turns into a kiss, into a touch, into pornhub. If you're suggesting that Jon and Arya will be very happy to see each other again then I agree with you. If you're suggesting that they will pair off/ marry/ bang or what have you then I'm out here screaming 'no. you're off base'. Do you think that Tyrion still figures into this relationship?  in the line in the letter that spawned this whole unsavory line of conversation that was supposed to be a love triangle.  Sansa was married to Tyrion though. Do you think Arya is going to cuck her big sister?  Remember how uncomfortable Tyrion was with Sansa? That problem's not going to be solved by a younger Stark and I doubt very much that Tyrion would be a willing point in this love triangle.

22 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

I want to start with the example you gave. The northerners know that Arya is 11 years old and what Ramsay is... Except for some northerners, the rest attended the wedding that day and celebrated this marriage. Logically, Arya is not even old enough to bloom, but they did the wedding night, too. Never mind the northern conspiracy for now, they attended this wedding and let that night. And none of them saw it as a moral issue because it is not like that from their point of view. Their concern is to save Arya and get rid of the Boltons. Despite this, that marriage and night was allowed. So we see that the Arya and Ramsay example we have has nothing to do with any moral taboo. It's about politica and other things.

There are still hostages in play and the might of the Dreadfort to contend with, Manderly says as much to Davos. Is Jon going to rule the North (if at all) through fear and intimidation?  What about his bastardy? That's not acceptable to many and that's another sentiment that Manderly echos to Davos. Perhaps under the same circumstances that the northern lords are accepting the Ramsay marriage they would accept the Jon marriage, but would either Jon or Arya be cool with that? 

 

54 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Tell me now, which northerner will want to stop the wedding of these two, who are actually two cousins? Those who want to stop this would stop it so not as a moral reaction, but for a political cause. Like Bolton thing.

So they're cousins then.  Again, what is Jon in the eyes of the North? Is he the legitimate son of Rhaegar and  Lyanna, the bastard of Ned, the bastard of R and L? Is he the lord commander of the nights watch? It's all well and good for us as readers to say "killing Jon is George's way of letting him get away from his vows" but is that going to mollify the north? "It's OK. I can leave the Wall and marry Ned Stark's daughter because I'm actually a  zombie." I think this would probably encourage more resistance.

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19 hours ago, U. B. Cool said:

Jon and Arya were supposed to be part of a tragic love triangle.  Jon's death threw a wrench on those plans.  At least while they live as humans.  All the social rules will got out the window after they die and become wolves.  Arya's purpose in Jon's arc was always to make him betray his dedication to Westeros and the watch.  That's done.  She can die now.  Jon's was to start the fall of the Night's Watch and he has done that.  They both can die. 

They won't become a couple as long as they remain human.  But the Starks will become wolf pack after they die.  I could see those two mating and producing a litter of furry little direwolves in the last book. 

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2 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

They won't become a couple as long as they remain human.  But the Starks will become wolf pack after they die.  I could see those two mating and producing a litter of furry little direwolves in the last book. 

I hope the book I'm going to wait another 10 or so years for isn't about a bunch of rutting dogs. At least it shouldn't probably take as long to write as Winds. Sure wont take long to read...

 

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2 hours ago, Jay21 said:

I hope the book I'm going to wait another 10 or so years for isn't about a bunch of rutting dogs. At least it shouldn't probably take as long to write as Winds. Sure wont take long to read...

 

I doubt that is going to happen it's always been a pretty garbage take on what will happen to the Skin changers of House Stark if they die.

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9 hours ago, Jay21 said:

Is Jon wildling enough that he doesn't feel he has to marry Arya, they can just do what they want?

If anything the freefolk are repelled by incest more than kneelers.

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23 hours ago, U. B. Cool said:

Jon and Arya were supposed to be part of a tragic love triangle.  Jon's death threw a wrench on those plans.  At least while they live as humans.  All the social rules will got out the window after they die and become wolves.  Arya's purpose in Jon's arc was always to make him betray his dedication to Westeros and the watch.  That's done.  She can die now.  Jon's was to start the fall of the Night's Watch and he has done that.  They both can die. 

 

3 hours ago, Bullrout said:

They won't become a couple as long as they remain human.  But the Starks will become wolf pack after they die.  I could see those two mating and producing a litter of furry little direwolves in the last book. 

We are talking about A Song of Ice and Fire here, right? Not the omegaverse?

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4 hours ago, Bullrout said:

They won't become a couple as long as they remain human.  But the Starks will become wolf pack after they die.  I could see those two mating and producing a litter of furry little direwolves in the last book. 

Small caveat: animals oppose incest more than humans, the opposition to incest is based on instinct, because it has negative consequences to the species, that's why we are often attracted to people different from us, we are genetically predisposed to do so, and some studies claim we can even smell the genetic similarity and reject it (subconsciouslly ofcourse). And animals do this consciously, they smell their posible partners to be sure they are not related and go search for others. So two sibling wolves wouldn't mate with each other unless there's literally no other choice.

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@YeniAy_Ottoman  Arya and Jon are not parallel.  They have the same personalities though.  Arya doesn't have a parallel because her story is just weird.  Jon's parallel is Cersei.  They are two leaders who are badly screwing up and undermining important support.  Jon and Cersei, are two leaders who were leading their people to catastrophe.  

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3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

We are talking about A Song of Ice and Fire here, right? Not the omegaverse?

Damn, came here to comment just that. Beat me to it. ARH-WOOOOO!

Anyways, glad to see another Lindsay fan here (at least I hope you know what that is from Lyndsay).

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17 hours ago, Jay21 said:

What are we talking about here?  If you're pulling some 'I only meant platonic love' make it clear now. What I'm talking about is a scenario where Jon and Arya are reunited and a hug turns into a kiss, into a touch, into pornhub. If you're suggesting that Jon and Arya will be very happy to see each other again then I agree with you. If you're suggesting that they will pair off/ marry/ bang or what have you then I'm out here screaming 'no. you're off base'. Do you think that Tyrion still figures into this relationship?  in the line in the letter that spawned this whole unsavory line of conversation that was supposed to be a love triangle.  Sansa was married to Tyrion though. Do you think Arya is going to cuck her big sister?  Remember how uncomfortable Tyrion was with Sansa? That problem's not going to be solved by a younger Stark and I doubt very much that Tyrion would be a willing point in this love triangle.

 

The point I mean is that when people say love, other people immediately bring things to the subject of sex ... some approach it just this way, it doesn't feel right to me. Still, you are absolutely right in the rest. After all, if something like marriage is going to happen, the end of the job will come here.

I don't have very clear ideas about Tyrion. So I cannot make a definite comment. But I can say that there are some minor references. Martin made changes in some plot fictions, this is known, but the general theme is going as planned, the details can only change. So there may still be a love triangle, but this third person could be Gendry instead of Tyrion. I do not know. Tysha's description is somewhat reminiscent of Arya. In Mercy POV, the scenes between the dwarf playing Tyrion and Arya are also quite thought-provoking as symbolic-reference. The dwarf was Tyrion, and Arya probably portrays the Shae character, perhaps a sign that the first plan is going on, or martin just waving a small hand at the old idea. Like I said, I don't know, I have no clear ideas.

This is why I find it wrong for the love-sex connection to be the focus. 

Now look, we're talking about falling in love here. If people had the opportunity to choose the people they could fall in love with, nobody would have the pain of love, would they?

If Tyrion was part of a love triangle, would he dream immedly of having sex with Arya? No, this is not the issue. Here we have a character portrait who is live a platonic love. There is an emotional need problem here, not a problem of sexual need. So? What do I mean?

We know that Jorah is in love with the 14-year-old Dany. If we had asked Jorah before Dany would he choose to fall in love with a 13-14 year old girl? Did Jorah fall in love with someone at a young girl before? No, but then he fell in love. So let's not pretend that this is an option when it comes to "falling in love". Once this happens, it's another matter that the character feels uncomfortable with age.

There is no one who says, "I feel very uncomfortable about age, so I won't fall in love with this girl."

So the issue is not whether the person is disturbed by the age difference. If the writer wants to do such a thing, he will write it.

We know that Tyrion is not in love but desires his wife, although the first stage is disturbed. If Sansa agreed, they would have sex that night. What happened to that feeling of discomfort?

In other words, girls aged 12 and over are considered to be the age of marriage, so every male character marries and has sex with those girls no matter what their age. Robert did it, Jorah wants Dany… Tyrion also wanted  Sansa. There are also examples in other asoiaf books.

So I think we should get over this issue as well. In this universe, in the mentality of male characters, such young relationships are generally not a problem, they have cultural backgrounds. Martin wrote it. 

Quote

There are still hostages in play and the might of the Dreadfort to contend with, Manderly says as much to Davos. Is Jon going to rule the North (if at all) through fear and intimidation?  What about his bastardy? That's not acceptable to many and that's another sentiment that Manderly echos to Davos. Perhaps under the same circumstances that the northern lords are accepting the Ramsay marriage they would accept the Jon marriage, but would either Jon or Arya be cool with that? 

So they're cousins then.  Again, what is Jon in the eyes of the North? Is he the legitimate son of Rhaegar and  Lyanna, the bastard of Ned, the bastard of R and L? Is he the lord commander of the nights watch? It's all well and good for us as readers to say "killing Jon is George's way of letting him get away from his vows" but is that going to mollify the north? "It's OK. I can leave the Wall and marry Ned Stark's daughter because I'm actually a  zombie." I think this would probably encourage more resistance.
 

The comment you made is an interpretation that you accept with your own point of view ... You say they would not like Jon's bastard origin. You say they will generally don't like Jon's presence, if we get the Arya factor out of the way, that's the picture in your head. If i understand you correct.

I'm not going to ask where you got that from because, after all, it's the portrait you perceive when you read the story. Mine, on the other hand, is very different from the portrait you put forward. We have two different perspectives and scenarios.

Robb legitimized Jon. However, Jon will not have a marriage or relationship as long as he thinks she is his sister. When it turns out that Jon is actually the Stark kids' cousin, Jon will still have a Stark name in his hand. In the other hand he will have probably the name Targaryen too. One is theory, of course; Jon was true born from the very beginning. Rhaegar and Lyanna got married. In this case, he has the right to use both his mother's and father's surnames. Suppose the bastard was born. It's still valid for Robb to declare him legitimate Stark, once you legitimize a person you can never take it back, the laws are like that. Cat warned Robb about this. So bastard thing is not a problem.

As Jon will probably be the hero of the day at the end of the story, it is pointless and meanless to me that the northerners look badly at their heroes and refuse to accept his marriage to Arya. Especially if Rickon dies at the end of the story, the Starks do not have another man who can have children. Bran is disabled, he cannot be his child. Jon is already a complete Stark in looks and culture. So he's a great person who can be used for the continuation of the Stark lineage. Arya will also clinch this job as Ned Stark's daughter. Didn't everyone want to use the Stark girls for Winterfell and the northern heritage anyway?

So probably Jon is the one to perpetuate the Stark lineage. I have a theory about this.  

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/155497-theory-winterfell-blue-flower-“stark-descendants”/

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@PontiusPilate Arya and Jon are not parallel.  They have the same personalities though.  Arya doesn't have a parallel because her story is just weird.  Jon's parallel is Cersei.  They are two leaders who are badly screwing up and undermining important support.  Jon and Cersei, are two leaders who were leading their people to catastrophe.  

It is a fact that we look at the story and the characters very differently.

 

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11 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

@YeniAy_Ottoman  Arya and Jon are not parallel.  They have the same personalities though.  Arya doesn't have a parallel because her story is just weird.  Jon's parallel is Cersei.  They are two leaders who are badly screwing up and undermining important support.  Jon and Cersei, are two leaders who were leading their people to catastrophe.  

Jon's parallel is Cersei?!? Not sure how you get that.

Jon and Daenerys are parallels. Young leaders making mistakes. Well-intentioned misrule thanks to inexperience and naivety. Both have forces actively working against them from the start amplifying every miscalculation. Jon's brothers in the Nights Watch who are prejudiced and close-minded; Dany the Sons of the Harpy and the deposed Great Masters of Mereen.

Cersei is just a paranoid moron who couldn't rule herself out of a closet if the door closed behind her (she would wait for a servant to open the door for her).

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1 hour ago, Lord of Blackhaven said:

Jon and Daenerys are parallels. Young leaders making mistakes. Well-intentioned misrule thanks to inexperience and naivety. Both have forces actively working against them from the start amplifying every miscalculation. Jon's brothers in the Nights Watch who are prejudiced and close-minded; Dany the Sons of the Harpy and the deposed Great Masters of Mereen.

Both need to work hard to reach a compromise.

Both end up in a pretty bad place, Dany shitting her guts in the Dothraki sea, Jon in Ghost, however both have a pretty secured legacy due to their allies, Dany having Barristan and the Shavepate, Jon having the Free Folk and a good chunk of the Watch.

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Posted (edited)

Reply to YeniAy_Ottoman

I guess that's the way you read the story then.  Jon's going to come back from the dead and perpetuate the Stark line on Arya.  That wouldn't be the Stark line though, it would be the Targaryen  but you know that. Whether or not his zombification has any impact on his ability to sire children remains to be seen. I guess you're just assuming it doesn't but maybe you're basing that one something. Maybe Arya plucking the illusory grave worm from the kindly man's face in the house of black and white was forshadow that she would someday take Jon's rotting grave worm with the same zeal. I still don't know how Jon and Arya are going to get around the quitting the NW thing without admitting Jon's a zombie.  Perhaps they could go live at Craster's.

 

 

Edited by Jay21
addressed

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12 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

@YeniAy_Ottoman  Arya and Jon are not parallel.  They have the same personalities though.  Arya doesn't have a parallel because her story is just weird.  Jon's parallel is Cersei.  They are two leaders who are badly screwing up and undermining important support.  Jon and Cersei, are two leaders who were leading their people to catastrophe.  

:agree:

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lord of Blackhaven said:

Jon's parallel is Cersei?!? Not sure how you get that.

Jon and Daenerys are parallels. Young leaders making mistakes. Well-intentioned misrule thanks to inexperience and naivety. Both have forces actively working against them from the start amplifying every miscalculation. Jon's brothers in the Nights Watch who are prejudiced and close-minded; Dany the Sons of the Harpy and the deposed Great Masters of Mereen.

Cersei is just a paranoid moron who couldn't rule herself out of a closet if the door closed behind her (she would wait for a servant to open the door for her).

In fact, all the characters have parallel experiences, characteristics, and scenes. Arya and Dany; Arya and Jon; Arya and Bran; Dany and Cersei ... I saw a thread on reddit for Dany and Davos, he/she has prepared a big table.

So there are these parallels between all the characters. So this is not such a big deal. However, GRRM mentioned that he wrote some characters as foil or parallel.

Jon and Theon; Arya and Sansa foil characters. Dany and Cersei parallel characters. In the five-year jump, GRRM wrote beautiful parallel scenes for these two, but when he gave up the gap, he had to take it out, and he was sorry for that.

But actually paralleling Jon and Cersei is an interesting observation skill. I haven't seen any parallel scenes between these two until now. 

1 hour ago, Jay21 said:

I guess that's the way you read the story then.  Jon's going to come back from the dead and perpetuate the Stark line on Arya.  That wouldn't be the Stark line though, it would be the Targaryen  but you know that.

 

Whether or not his zombification has any impact on his ability to sire children remains to be seen. I guess you're just assuming it doesn't but maybe you're basing that one something. Maybe Arya plucking the illusory grave worm from the kindly man's face in the house of black and white was forshadow that she would someday take Jon's rotting grave worm with the same zeal. I still don't know how Jon and Arya are going to get around the quitting the NW thing without admitting Jon's a zombie.  Perhaps they could go live at Craster's.

 

No, I don't know because i don't think same with you. Why? First of all, if a child wants to continue with his/her mother's name, he/she can do so. Second, there is a historical events about it. The baby in the Winterfell flower story told by Ygritte continued the Stark lineage. That boy became the next Stark lord. No one told him that he continued his father's lineage. Do you think Starks are actually free folk? No, they have free folk in their blood but they are still Stark. 

If i remember correctly, for a period in history, Lannister men were end, only one woman remained. This woman married a man she saw fit, and that man took his wife's surname. After that, the children born of these two continued the name Lannister. So the Lannister lineage continued from a woman.

(By the way, I noticed it now. It is very interesting that there are historical similarities between Stark and Lannister. Both are lineagee continued by a woman in the past, and both houses have inter-cousins marrige in recent generations. Tywin-Joanna and Ned's parents. Nice detail GRRM.)

There is also an example today. Mormonts. The surname of Lady Mormont's children is still Mormont, they did not take their father's surname. The next Bear Island lord will also be a woman, as a Mormont. Probably, the surname of the children born of her husband will also be Mormont.

I don't think we need any more examples for the Jon and Stark lineage issue.

Quote

 

"The Lannisters are proud," Jon observed. "You'd think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother's House equal in honor to the king's."

"The woman is important too!" Arya protested.

Jon chuckled. "Perhaps you should do the same thing, little sister. Wed Tully to Stark in your arms."

 

:agree:

You're making the issue of Jon's death and resurrection unnecessarily overestimated and an obstacle. These are minor details. These are in no way an obstacle to the coming together. First of all, we are talking about a fictional character. We are not talking about a real universe where real people act with their free will. As a writer, if I have decided to bring these two together, I will pave the way for it (which Martin has made all those ways) and conclude.

Instead of getting stuck with such nonsensical details in these books, the focus should be on seeing if Martin has made way for it and left hints on it. All speeches other than these are, in my opinion, the product of the "I'm trying to take the subject uphill, understand me". Ah, of course these little details can be discussed after discussing the arguments of the theory; How will people react, who might want to make trouble? ... etc. But a theory cannot be refuted with these.

Edited by YeniAy_Ottoman

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6 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

You're making the issue of Jon's death and resurrection unnecessarily overestimated and an obstacle. These are minor details. These are in no way an obstacle to the coming together.

How can you even say that? What do you know of the nature of Jon's resurrection (if it even happens)? Maybe he'll be back like Coldhands, maybe Stoneheart, maybe Beric? maybe he'll be reborn with long white hair and only 1 eye. maybe when back from the dead the last thing on his mind will be banging his little sister, maybe he'll want to eat her brains. My point is that you don't know the extent to which Jon's death will impact his love life - regardless of who he would or wouldn't spend that with.

I think we're both pretty entrenched in our opinions on this one. Let's put a pin in this and revisit it once a Dream of Spring comes out.

 

 

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