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Best king to rule westeros instead of mad king/Robert Baratheon/Joffrey


Mrstrategy

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4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Viserys II seemed to have done great things even in just one year of ruling, not to mention carrying the realm of his back for decades while Daeron wared and Baelor prayed.

I mean, that makes him the best Hand ever. But obviously, he was about to become one of the greatests, if not the best, altough he had a hard life.

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1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Jaehaerys I

Tbf, Jaeaherys had dragons, so we don't know what we would have done without them.

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Daeron II

He might have been a good King, but he did nothing to prevent the growing schism in the realm that eventually boiled over in the Blackfyre rebellion.

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Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Tbf, Jaeaherys had dragons, so we don't know what we would have done without them.

Why is that a problem? I mean it is for you. Otherwise, not so much.

 

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He might have been a good King, but he did nothing to prevent the growing schism in the realm that eventually boiled over in the Blackfyre rebellion.

How do you imagine doing anything about it? Executing or banishing his brother for unproven words? The text actually hints us that Daemon didn't really want to rebel, unless he wasn't pushed too hard and provoked.

On the other hand, the only mistake Daeron made was that he didn't let Daemon marry Daenerys, if it wasn't more than a rumour, but it pretty much sounds and looks like one. Nor is Daeron responsible for his father's stupidity and the fact that Aemon and Naerys were so close, backing the words that spreaded.

Nor was he responsible for Aegor's own ambitions (Shiera).

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Just now, Daeron the Daring said:

Why is that a problem? I mean it is for you. Otherwise, not so much.

You misunderstand. Dragons allowed Jaehaerys a style of rulership completely different from what other Kings had. And since the OP requests a King for 259-300, that means no dragons. I don't think Jaehaerys would fit very well in a dragonless world.

Not saying it was worse, on the contrary, dragons allowed Jaehaerys to actually centralize the government, I'm just saying it he would have fit like a square peg through a round hole.

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

How do you imagine doing anything about it? Executing or banishing his brother for unproven words? The text actually hints us that Daemon didn't really want to rebel, unless he wasn't pushed too hard and provoked.

First, not dismissing all Aegon IVth loyalists out of hand on the first day.

Second off, I think he could have handled Dorne better. Not saying he shouldn't have unified, I'm just saying he could have been more careful how he does it.

It's fundamentally like Jon. Sure, brining the wildlings over the Wall was good, necessary actually, but he really should have made sure to take care of how the Watch perceives it. And both failed, the only difference being that Jon got murdered while Daeron got Blackfyre rebellioned.

5 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Nor was he responsible for Aegor's own ambitions (Shiera).

Aegor wasn't the only ambitious one. There were countless of former Aegon IV lickspites, and anti Dornish nobles, all of whom supported Daemon. Those, Daeron II should care of.

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20 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Jaehaerys I, Daeron II and Viserys II.

Daeron I: Vainglorious fool. Spent lives and money to fuel his won ego.

Jaehaerys I: Roads ? 

Viserys II: Typical Targaryen king but competent.

 

Egg wins by a mile.

19 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's not doing nothing to help the realm

Nothing compared to Egg. We only know of Egg's most ambitious attempts. Increasing trade etc is standard stuff.

Jaeherys' and Viserys' attempts are insignificant compared to the things Egg wanted. 

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5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You misunderstand. Dragons allowed Jaehaerys a style of rulership completely different from what other Kings had. And since the OP requests a King for 259-300, that means no dragons. I don't think Jaehaerys would fit very well in a dragonless world.

Not saying it was worse, on the contrary, dragons allowed Jaehaerys to actually centralize the government, I'm just saying it he would have fit like a square peg through a round hole.

Jaehaerys is called the best Targaryen king for a reason. He was the king who relied the least on his dragons, back when there were dragons. He obviously was clever, and handled things the best way. Of course we cannot see how he would've ruled if he was dragonless, but that's not what happened. If you have dragons, you obviously use them if you have to. Great minds always worked out well, as proven. Jaehaerys is one example for that, you clearly can't miss hiss characteristics, if you have read FnB.

 

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

First, not dismissing all Aegon IVth loyalists out of hand on the first day.

Second off, I think he could have handled Dorne better. Not saying he shouldn't have unified, I'm just saying he could have been more careful how he does it.

It's fundamentally like Jon. Sure, brining the wildlings over the Wall was good, necessary actually, but he really should have made sure to take care of how the Watch perceives it. And both failed, the only difference being that Jon got murdered while Daeron got Blackfyre rebellioned.

The only thing he could've handled better was Daemon himself. How could he please people who wanted to overthrow him? With money? Not really? With bloodrelation? Nope. What remained? Gaining alliances. Dorne was the solution for this, altough I agree he should've forced some lords to marry dornish nobility, especially those around the Dornish Marches.

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9 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Jaeherys' and Viserys' attempts are insignificant compared to the things Egg wanted. 

Focus on wanted. Not did. Egg did very little in reality. Long term Viserys II had a far more positive impact on Westeros.

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10 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Daeron I: Vainglorious fool. Spent lives and money to fuel his won ego.

I said Daeron II.

 

10 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Jaehaerys I: Roads ? 

Read FnB. Or should I quote you the entire book?

 

11 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Viserys II: Typical Targaryen king but competent

Why was he more typical than Aegon? If something, he wasn't typical.

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1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Why was he more typical than Aegon? If something, he wasn't typical.

Yeah, he was above competent. Were it not for his dipshit of a son probably poisoning him, he would have been a truly great King. He did a lot of stuff on his own in just the year he had, though.

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Just now, Daeron the Daring said:

Read FnB. Or should I quote you the entire book?

 

I have read the book. His life is meme-worthy.

He showed competence but nothing comparable to Egg's scheme of protections for all, despite having dragons.

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I said Daeron II.

 

An improvement over Aegon IV, but that is no achievement.

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Why was he more typical than Aegon? If something, he wasn't typical.

He tried to strengthen his family and did it well. Beyond that he did the usual stuff that every competnt king does: trade, a few laws etc.

 

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Did any try to defy the Iron Bank?

Besides Cersei that is. Always wondered how much the Lannisters ever tried to overpower the IB. Westeros doesnt have banks but it seems Lannisters have been a de facto national bank for a while. Seems there would be a history of sorts there. 

 

Ive only read the main novels but I was looking at the wiki about a guy named Tyland Lannister who became master of coin and split the crowns gold into 4 and sent it to 4 different places.  And this......"During the regency of Aegon III, the lending of gold by Tyland to lords caused a rift between the Iron Throne of Westeros and the Iron Bank of Braavos"

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24 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Because?

He got away with marrying Alysanne when incest had dogged the Targaryens. Then there is the "Roads!" comment.

Abolishment of First Night wasn't even his initiative. Not being Maegor is his greatest accomplishment. Appointing a decent master of coin, not being a fool is something expect of everyone.

59 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No.

Yes. These people fought and died in Dorne. Forcing a woman will not make them meekly submit. Any wife can be put aside once they have their preferred king (Daemon) on the throne.

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49 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Yes. These people fought and died in Dorne. Forcing a woman will not make them meekly submit. Any wife can be put aside once they have their preferred king (Daemon) on the throne.

You again, mix Daeron I with Daeron II. Shows how competent you are, man.

 

51 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

He got away with marrying Alysanne when incest had dogged the Targaryens

And this makes him a bad king because?

 

51 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Then there is the "Roads!" comment.

 

1 hour ago, saltedmalted said:

Not being Maegor is his greatest accomplishment.

The fact that roads are the only thing you can connect to Jaehaerys I, and you're comparing him to Maegor again shows how competent you are.

 

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29 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You again, mix Daeron I with Daeron II. Shows how competent you are, man.

 

You should improve your reading comprehension. Let me quote your own words:

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The only thing he could've handled better was Daemon himself.  Dorne was the solution for this, altough I agree he should've forced some lords to marry dornish nobility, especially those around the Dornish Marches.

"He" in this case is Daeron II.

 

Lords of the Dornish marches have fought and died in Dorne within living memory. Hoisting Dornish wives on them will not make them submit. 

29 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And this makes him a bad king because?

That makes him a Gary Stu, getting away with things because of plot armor.

29 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The fact that roads are the only thing you can connect to Jaehaerys I, and you're comparing him to Maegor again shows how competent you are.

:rolleyes:

He came after Maegor, by comparison anybody would have been better. The biggest challenge of his time got hand-waived away so he could fuck his sister.

His biggest job was building the kingsroad, supposedly a monumental feat whose construction did not pose a true financial or engineering challenge.

 

He could have enacted reforms similar to Egg's but he didn't even try. Even the banning of First Night was originally Alysanne's idea.

 

 

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2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Lords of the Dornish marches have fought and died in Dorne within living memory. Hoisting Dornish wives on them will not make them submit. 

So I was writing a pretty long comment to you, but sadly it dissapeared. I'm gonna write it down once again, but not getting into details the way I did.

It does. It's what people did for centuries, and what Alysanne and Jaehaerys did before him too. They arranged marriages between The North and the Vale (the two kingdoms had a pretty bad relationship before conquest), and between the Stromlands and the Reach too, along with the Riverlands. Sure, I don't expect you to know such a thing, but it's written down there. Daeron should have pushed a lil bit his lords from the Dornish Marches to do such a thing. Also, it did seem like you said that Daeron II was offensive against Dorne, but he never was, and by his time the dornishmen even forgot about Daeron I, because of Aegon IV's acts. It was him and the bad relation of hundreds of years what made the situation go bad.

2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

That makes him a Gary Stu, getting away with things because of plot armor.

After Maegor happened, people didn't really want to raise up against this again. But majority didn't like the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. In fact, Jaehaerys even had to influence the Most Devout not to elect someone who opposes them and will stir up the smallfolk against them. You might not know, but Alysanne almost was murdered for this, and they blame that for the death of Jaehaerys' firstborn son.

 

2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

He came after Maegor, by comparison anybody would have been better.

Yet, for some reason, he's called the greatest person to ever sit on the Iron Throne, after 200 years of his death.

 

2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

His biggest job was building the kingsroad, supposedly a monumental feat whose construction did not pose a true financial or engineering challenge.

What else could he have done outside his own realm, in the lands of his Lords Paramount. I mean, we are told how he developed in-land trading, the Crownlands, King's Landing, made a unified code of law, participated in foreign politics, tried to unify the divided realm, etc. Glydayn's work never orientated on these matters. Never. Instead, FnB is a storytelling history book, but one can imagine that kings did not only do what's written down. Assuming he himself did nothing while reigning for 50 is a dumb assumption.

Also he pretty much solved the problem of his age. Establishing his dinasty as rulers of Westeros. Altough he was an absolutistic monarchist, opressing could've easily backfired. I'm not saying he wanted to give the smallfolk any more rights he did, tho. Aegon V and him are pretty different.

3 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

He could have enacted reforms similar to Egg's but he didn't even try

It likely never crossed his mind. Aegon V had that point of view because he grow up as a squire of Dunk.

 

3 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Even the banning of First Night was originally Alysanne's idea.

Probably because it was Alysanne who spent several month in The North, not him. He only joined for several days or weeks, because he had other business to do. One can imagine he didn't just sit on his ass when he was apart somewhere for years. 

And you are putting Aegon V above such people. In the end, Aegon V accomplished nothing. He was a good ruler, smart and caring, and pretty much failed because of things he had no influence over, but that doesn't change the fact that he accomplished nothing at the end of the day, and is also remembered as a tyrant for trying to force his lords to accept his reforms. It's totally unfair, I agree, but changes nothing.

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