Why does Tyrion choose to go along with Tywin’s plans to marry Sansa to him?

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 3/2/2021 at 6:19 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Exactly as the thread title indicates; why does Tyrion choose to participate in his father’s plan to marry him (Tyrion) to Sansa? It isn’t like Tywin is making Tyrion marry Sansa or Cersei marry Willas; the latter plan languishes for months before Tywin gets whacked. 

• A wardenship of his own? That ain’t gonna fly with the Northerners; they’re the type to say a cripple like Bran should commit suicide. And Bran wasn’t born like that, how would they accept someone who was born with an infirmity and might have a chance of passing that down through his bloodline? Unless Tywin intends to throw Tyrion under the bus, which is just as likely. 
• It didn’t need to be Tyrion; Tywin could have married her to Lancel or Podrick for all I know (I’m a Podsa shipper on the side) and he could have the Starks under the thumb of the Lannisters just as much. Tyrion could have arranged the match himself to get out of it.
• Love from a bride? Sansa’s still with her head in the clouds with attractive partners (minus the Hound) and would be unlikely to accept a man who’s twice her age and belongs to a family who ordered the execution of her father.
• What else am I missing?

Note: this isn’t a Tywin bashing thread. This puts the ball in Tyrion’s court.

Tyrion is weak. He is a drunk, a whoremonger and he has yet to find himself. The crucible of slavery will be how he finds himself again 

 

[corbon]

15 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Tyrion agreed to marry Sansa before he considered any of this.

No, he did not. Go read the passage again.
You only get to be all-knowing on the things that are not explicit, your All-Knowingness.

15 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

You make it sound like he did it all out of kindness, as if it was a sacrifice for the Imp.

Try reading what I actually write.

5 hours ago, Mystical said:

It was an option available to her before the Lannisters took it away. So yes Sansa had a better option but Tyrion's family denied it to her. Case closed.

Wrong trial.

We are discussing why Tyrion agreed to the marriage, not what his family denied Sansa.

5 hours ago, Mystical said:

Explicitly didn't want it? I thought we were discussing actual book canon here, not some fanfic or fanon?

One of us is.

Quote

Tyrion rubbed at the raw stub of his nose. The scar tissue itched abominably sometimes. "His Grace the royal pustule has made Sansa's life a misery since the day her father died, and now that she is finally rid of Joffrey you propose to marry her to me. That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father."
"Why, do you plan to mistreat her?" His father sounded more curious than concerned. "The girl's happiness is not my purpose, nor should it be yours. Our alliances in the south may be as solid as Casterly Rock, but there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark."
"She is no more than a child.
...
"Shae is all the woman I need just now, he thought, and Sansa's a girl, no matter what you say. 

Quote

Why indeed? "A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed."

Quote

He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

 

5 hours ago, Mystical said:

And it's arguable if he was going against his family when he offered Lancel as an alternative.

Given that Lancel was already dismissed as an option in their conversation, and he, Tyrion, was directly ordered to marry her, its explicit that he was going against his family.

Thats not the point though. Although I did point out that he was willing to go against his family, the point was that, within his power, he was willing to accede to her wishes. If he went against his family enough to break their hold on Sansa, he couldn't possibly get away with that, neither for her nor for him. A minor rebellion that eases her path a little is the most he can do that has any chance of success.

5 hours ago, Mystical said:

Equally valuable interpretation would be that he was making himself out to be as much a victim of this to Sansa as she was.

I don't think you understand the word equal. You certainly aren't applying the mathematics of the situation.
This interpretation ignores half the equation entirely. Make that 2/3rds ignored even. On the plus side, loots and stuff. But there are two minus factors. Unwilling child-bride in his bed, and the risks and dangers that the pluses are unlikely to ever actually materialise and get him killed. All three elements of the equation are explicitly noted by Tyrion, yet you only count one of them.

5 hours ago, Mystical said:

Which we all know is BS (and so is his offer) because we know from HIM that he wanted her and her estates.

WE don't all know its BS. People who actually read the text properly and can apply all the relevant factors see that it may very likely be real. There is certainly no indication that it is false.

6 hours ago, Mystical said:

Come to think of it, since you insist there was no better option than Tyrion. Lancel was a hundred times better an option. Not only would it have been guaranteed there wouldn't be any sort of bedding at that time which would have spared Sansa the sexual violations done to her during her time with Tyrion. But Lancel actually set his own war bride free later on. If that had been Sansa, she would have been free and clear of the Lannisters. I would take Lancel for Sansa over Tyrion any day. So funnily enough, Lancel would have been the better option.

1. At that time Lancel's 'religious conviction' wasn't known (may not have even happened yet!) Using latter knowledge cannot justify a decision. So, if he was chosen, it would , as far as they knew, only have delayed Sansa's actual rape until he was healthier. She would still have a hated Lannister in her bed fucking her.
2. Sansa wasn't sexually violated by Tyrion. On her wedding night, or after. She gave encouragement and permission until he stopped, I understand you disagree, this argument has been had before and very quickly gets heated. I feel its only fair I counter the accusation once at least, but lets not open this one up here and now as it will derail the wider discussion utterly.
3.  If Tyrion had of refused, its unlikely Lancel would have been the option chosen by Tywin. Much more likely would be Ser Daven. 
4. Tyrion offered Sansa exactly that option and she declined. You don't get to decide that its fake because you don't like the facts. He did it. She declined. 

[Bowen 747]

Tyrion took one for the team.  He was loyal to his family until they betrayed him during his trial.  Family loyalty was important to him.  

[saltedmalted]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

You only get to be all-knowing on the things that are not explicit, your All-Knowingness.

You should read more, Captain Know-Nothing. 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

You only get to be all-knowing on the things that are not explicit, your All-Knowingness.

I have, and it remains a lot of gish gallop. Copy pasting the passages you like does not make them more important than they are.

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Tyrion offered Sansa exactly that option and she declined. You don't get to decide that its fake because you don't like the facts. He did it. She declined. 

Cersei had already threatened her that she would have to go with a marriage anyway.

You and a few others are the only one who consider it "consent".

@Angel Eyes

The Kingslayer's resistance to leaving the Kingsguard aside, no Lannister is actually bold enough to resist Tywin Lannister. The Imp is prone to self-delusion (see Shae) in personal matters. Sansa is a pretty girl, he probably thought he could somehow gain her affection.

 

[corbon]

1 minute ago, saltedmalted said:

You should read more, Captain Know-Nothing. 

No actual attempt to actually provide supporting evidence I see. I already provided the relevant text, but you can't even be bothered to check it.
It was all discussed and considered in the meeting, before Tyrion said yes.

Quote

"If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins," said his father. "Kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?"
Ser Kevan hesitated. "If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words . . . but to consummate, no . . . I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun. They have Genna's boy Tion as well, else he might serve."
Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew. Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

This byplay for his benefit (an alternative forced marriage is exactly what we are discussing here (ref post #38)) happens well before he agrees for the first time near the end of the discussion here:

Quote

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. "Very good, Father," he said slowly, "but there's a big ugly roach in your rushes. Robb Stark is as capable as I am, presumably, and sworn to marry one of those fertile Freys. And once the Young Wolf sires a litter, any pups that Sansa births are heirs to nothing."

and even then he has one last argument against, about Robb potentially getting heirs.
 

Its possible I've missed something and am wrong. It happens to all of us. But I've provided hard textual evidence that says he had considered the factors before saying yes. You've provided nothing but wind so far. Please, bring your evidence.

 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:00 PM, corbon said:

True.

What would happen if he did that?
Sansa would still suffer a forced marriage to a different Lannister. I doubt any other Lannister would have held off consummating the marriage the way he did, and kept to that under pressure, the way he did. So she'd be even worse off.
And he'd be far worse off in every way.

We're talking about Tyrion's motives and reactions. As far as I know there's nothing in the text that shows he's choosing this marriage to protect Sansa from a worse fate. His actions to avoid the marriage are tepid and weak. 

Tyrion losing his Lannister privileges is the whole point of his character development. You may call it "worse off" but it's part of what needs to happen so he can actually experience growth for once.

[saltedmalted]

9 hours ago, corbon said:

I already provided the relevant text, but you can't even be bothered to check it.
It was all discussed and considered in the meeting, before Tyrion said yes.

Tyrion said yes before he talked to Sansa.

Posting snippets doesn't change the order in which events happened.

[SeanF]

Tyrion is certainly better towards Sansa than Cersei, Joffrey, or Tywin.

But, he also serves quite happily, at the highest level of a government that holds her captive, and orchestrates the murder of her family.  He may not be happy with everything his father does, but he defers to him because he wants to be acknowledged as his heir.

He’s still one of Sansa’s persecutors, albeit not as bad as the rest.

[Mystical]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's actually not very promising on his part. So, he'll rape her at age 15 instead of age 13?

There is no way he would have the patience to wait that long. Unless I remember it wrong, if the Purple Wedding hadn't gone down as it did and just proceeded as a normal wedding, that's the day Tyrion would have raped Sansa. Wasn't that in his thoughts during the PW? So much for 'I will wait until you come to me willingly'. So Tyrion was perfectly willing to rape Sansa at age 12-13 despite saying he would not.

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

He’s still one of Sansa’s persecutors, albeit not as bad as the rest.

And technically her jailer for life. After he had promised before court that she would be set free. Proving once again that the promises of a Lannister, any Lannister, are worthless.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

There is no way he would have the patience to wait that long. Unless I remember it wrong, if the Purple Wedding hadn't gone down as it did and just proceeded as a normal wedding, that's the day Tyrion would have raped Sansa. Wasn't that in his thoughts during the PW? So much for 'I will wait until you come to me willingly'. So Tyrion was perfectly willing to rape Sansa at age 12-13 despite saying he would not.

And technically her jailer for life. After he had promised before court that she would be set free. Proving once again that the promises of a Lannister, any Lannister, are worthless.

I hope they never meet again.  I think that the Tyrion of ADWD would treat her like Illyrio's bedslave, or the girl in Selhorys.

[Mystical]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I hope they never meet again.  I think that the Tyrion of ADWD would treat her like Illyrio's bedslave, or the girl in Selhorys.

Oh believe me, if I had any say in the story, Sansa would never have to set eyes on Tyrion again. Which is probably why she will, GRRM doesn't give nice things to the Starks. But if she has to be anywhere near him again, I hope there is an army between them. Unless Tyrion has some radical character change for the better, he's already let us know he plans to take his husband rights should Sansa still be alive when he gets back to Westeros (iirc).

[broken one]

Tyrion is member of noble house in "middle ages", it is not a communist party you leave because you do not like agenda to join social democrats, it does not work this way.

What was he supposed to do, let Sansa escape? Escape with her and join Starks? Because Robb is oh so good that he almost pissed at him? Such book I would not want to read.

I think he married her mostly because of the North, partially because in his stupidity he assumed somehow she will get over the murders of her family members. But was it so stupid? Men used to murder men and children in front of their wifes/mothers and took the wifes/mothers for themselves, without dilemmas, to rape or not to rape (like Mamertines in Messana). The women were expected to adjust. Tyrions dilemmas are quite modern and I do not think he should be spat on because of Sansa.

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I hope they never meet again.  I think that the Tyrion of ADWD would treat her like Illyrio's bedslave, or the girl in Selhorys.

I think they may meet again, dissolve the marriage and make some sort of agreement or pact of non-agression.  Frankly speaking I cannot believe he would ever try to touch her. I do not even think the treatment you are talking about will become his custom, he seemed to be ashamed by his behaviour in Selhorys, even drunk.

 

 

 

[Springwatch]

46 minutes ago, broken one said:

Men used to murder men and children in front of their wifes/mothers and took the wifes/mothers for themselves, without dilemmas, to rape or not to rape (like Mamertines in Messana). The women were expected to adjust. Tyrions dilemmas are quite modern and I do not think he should be spat on because of Sansa.

Did you mean modern? Or are you saying Tyrion was a man of his time, and we should make allowances for the pressures of the culture etc?

Anyway, it's likely historic people did spit on the name of the Mamertines. Brutality does get recognised. Amazing story though.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, broken one said:

Tyrion is member of noble house in "middle ages", it is not a communist party you leave because you do not like agenda to join social democrats, it does not work this way.

.....

You can't think of a single character who left their house to make an allegiance to another group?

[Mystical]

5 hours ago, broken one said:

Tyrion is member of noble house in "middle ages", it is not a communist party you leave because you do not like agenda to join social democrats, it does not work this way.

This isn't the middle ages. This is very, very loosely inspired by the middle ages. So loosely in fact it barely resembles it. And what do political parties have to do with the Houses? In this story where House = Family. And not House = Party Members.

5 hours ago, broken one said:

What was he supposed to do, let Sansa escape?

Considering he had said before court that she would be set free, how about YES.

5 hours ago, broken one said:

But was it so stupid?

What wasn't stupid? That he thought he or any child he had with Sansa would be accepted in the North after what he and his family have done? Talk about delusional. That Sansa would eventually come to desire or love him considering what his family have done to her and her family? Yep, delusional again. Did he think that Sansa wouldn't have an 'accident' eventually after she cranked out and heir and a spare, if she even survived giving birth given her extremely young age? Guess he's delusional about his family. So much delusion actually borders on extremely stupid.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

This isn't the middle ages. This is very, very loosely inspired by the middle ages. So loosely in fact it barely resembles it. And what do political parties have to do with the Houses? In this story where House = Family. And not House = Party Members.

Considering he had said before court that she would be set free, how about YES.

What wasn't stupid? That he thought he or any child he had with Sansa would be accepted in the North after what he and his family have done? Talk about delusional. That Sansa would eventually come to desire or love him considering what his family have done to her and her family? Yep, delusional again. Did he think that Sansa wouldn't have an 'accident' eventually after she cranked out and heir and a spare, if she even survived giving birth given her extremely young age? Guess he's delusional about his family. So much delusion actually borders on extremely stupid.

Besides, Robb hung Sansa out to dry.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

Considering he had said before court that she would be set free, how about YES.

And Jaime is trying to keep his promise to Catelyn by protecting Sansa and Arya, through Brienne. Which is more thought than Tyrion gave to the idea.

[Hugorfonics]

15 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And Jaime is trying to keep his promise to Catelyn by protecting Sansa and Arya, through Brienne. Which is more thought than Tyrion gave to the idea.

Dude, Tyrion as hand swore to return Sansa for Jaime. By the time Jaime was in Kl Tyrion wasnt so much hand of the king as he was on death row. 

Idk what Jaime expects Brienne to do as he watches Jeyne Poole ride north and Riverrun fall, but his intentions seem pure

Tyrions intentions are reasonably pure as well and he protects Sansa without passing the buck

 

Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped the cloak of his protection about her shoulders, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it.

[Rose of Red Lake]

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dude, Tyrion as hand swore to return Sansa for Jaime. By the time Jaime was in Kl Tyrion wasnt so much hand of the king as he was on death row. 

Tyrion's prime objective was trying to free Jaime using subterfuge; he was trying to play ball for his family and was acting out of family/political interest first. Not purely out of a desire to help or protect Sansa. 

OTOH, Jaime is trying to keep a promise to a dead woman, his enemy, and protect a girl he's never met after he was freed. We could argue that he's trying to rehab his own image with this move, but still - it hits a bit DIFFERENT. 

Tyrion and his "reasonably pure intentions" is a white wash. 

Tyrion can be kind and clever, and he has been wronged a lot. He feels sorry for the Stark kids. But he is a rapist, he murders women, and abandoned his first wife after a gang rape.

 

Quote

"As you say. And his sisters?"

Tyrion glanced toward Sansa, and felt a stab of pity as he said, "Until such time as he frees my brother Jaime, unharmed, they shall remain here as hostages. How well they are treated depends on him." And if the gods are good, Bywater will find Arya alive, before Robb learns she's gone missing.

Tyrion feels pity toward Sansa, but still acts for Lannister interests (and his own political success as Hand). It's important to not get too wrapped up in the emotions characters feel - this is a POV trap.

[Hugorfonics]

17 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Tyrion's prime objective was trying to free Jaime using subterfuge; he was trying to play ball for his family and was acting out of family/political interest first. Not purely out of a desire to help or protect Sansa. 

Course.

17 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

OTOH, Jaime is trying to keep a promise to a dead woman, his enemy, and protect a girl he's never met. We could argue that he's trying to rehab his own image with this move, but still - it hits a bit DIFFERENT. 

Does it? Jaime is literally destroying all safehouses for Sansa to hide under, while telling Bracken (or was it Blackwood?) to kill all survivors. Its all for the ego/ bullshit honor, not for state like Tyrion which I think is a better excuse (even if it is a fucked up state)

17 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

he is a rapist, he murders women, and abandoned his first wife after a gang rape.

Hes got issues, sure.

19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Tyrion feels pity toward Sansa, but still acts for Lannister interests (and his own political success as Hand). It's important to not get too wrapped up in the emotions characters feel - this is a POV trap.

He regrets not giving Ice back after Sansa saw Joffreys sword, not that a piece of metal really matters. Still, he looks out for her