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GRRM's Original Outline "What has changed?"


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4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

There's something here, and it reminds of something, but I just can't bring it to mind

Cersei? Westeros expects the worst.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think what bothers me about the idea of holding her partly responsible, is that it leads into the belief that she deserves what she gets afterward. Beaten by Joffrey's guards? "Welp that's what you get for dreaming about marrying a prince and betraying your family!" It's a sick mentality readers are allowed to have. If his intention is to make her more sympathetic as she goes along

So Sansa actually is responsible for like, 3/4ths of the calamities this side of the narrow. I think GRRM did this because Sansa is the main character of asoiaf  and wants us to recognize accordingly.

There is a sense of reap what you sow, although much less then Jorah in ink or Ned on the block, but for a reader to not sympathize, id put the blame on the particular reader and not the author.  I see this plenty with Theon, the hate that he receives and the lack of sympathy I have seen online has not changed my belief one bit that GRRM made Theon one tragic son of a bitch

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On 3/17/2021 at 12:59 PM, Hugorfonics said:

So Sansa actually is responsible for like, 3/4ths of the calamities this side of the narrow. I think GRRM did this because Sansa is the main character of asoiaf  and wants us to recognize accordingly.

Putting a heavy weight or responsibility like that on a girl's dreams/fantasies is quite cynical. Young 16 year old Princess Di was excited about her own a fairy tale wedding to a prince. Enlightened people don't blame her for the tragedies she experienced - they blame the royals who used her.

I also don't think this idea of the dangers of fantasies is unique to Sansa. Theon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion are also clinging to fantasies and dreams. Their actions bring about calamities to themselves and others.

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#7 Will be replaced with Sansa and Harry.  Sansa will once again turn her back on the Starks.  
 

#2 Daenerys need the time to develop into a woman and blossom into the ruler she will become.  The dragons also need the time to grow.  
 

#12 The dynamic between Daenerys, Drogo, Rhaego, and Viserys was modified so that she could become Azor Ahai.  
 

#10 The JonArya love will happen but not necessarily while theyre  humans. I believe Jon and Arya will die and get second lives as wolves.

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6 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

#7 Will be replaced with Sansa and Harry.  Sansa will once again turn her back on the Starks.  
 

#2 Daenerys need the time to develop into a woman and blossom into the ruler she will become.  The dragons also need the time to grow.  
 

#12 The dynamic between Daenerys, Drogo, Rhaego, and Viserys was modified so that she could become Azor Ahai.  
 

#10 The JonArya love will happen but not necessarily while theyre  humans. I believe Jon and Arya will die and get second lives as wolves.

#7 Harry is a dead man walking. Sansa will not turn on the Starks.

#2 Daenerys is about to take over all the Khalsars and become a conquerer in truth. Her dragons are already large enough to ride and eat small children.

#12 Prove it.

#10 This is A Song of Ice and Fire, not the omegaverse.

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17 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Putting a heavy weight or responsibility like that on a girl's dreams/fantasies is quite cynical

I dont think her fantasies had much to play in those situations, well maybe some like with that Mycha instance or squealing to Cersei, but mostly she just changes the landscape of the universe by breathing. 

17 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I also don't think this idea of the dangers of fantasies is unique to Sansa. Theon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion are also clinging to fantasies and dreams. Their actions bring about calamities to themselves and others.

Im not so sure about Arya, her state of being has left her with the dream of survival. Although even in the before times Arya seemed like kind of a lost child who did not know what place she has in this world. 

Contrast that with Sansa or Theon who knew exactly what they wanted. Jaime I think is another good example of, if not a dreamer, an ex dreamer

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On 3/17/2021 at 7:59 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Cersei? Westeros expects the worst.

So Sansa actually is responsible for like, 3/4ths of the calamities this side of the narrow. I think GRRM did this because Sansa is the main character of asoiaf  and wants us to recognize accordingly.

There is a sense of reap what you sow, although much less then Jorah in ink or Ned on the block, but for a reader to not sympathize, id put the blame on the particular reader and not the author.  I see this plenty with Theon, the hate that he receives and the lack of sympathy I have seen online has not changed my belief one bit that GRRM made Theon one tragic son of a bitch

I have to thank you - I laughed when I read this - for the first time in days. Truly, Sansa is the gift that keeps on giving; the most remarkable, the wondefulest, the maddest characterisation in the history of literature. :D

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On 3/3/2021 at 7:04 PM, SeanF said:

Everything had to be rewritten to take account of scrapping the five year gap.

The five-year gap was not part of the original plan and was a later addition, so it's a more a cast that introducing it (as he did ~1997/98) and then removing it (as he did in September 2001) changed things significantly, not just removing it.

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On 3/16/2021 at 8:18 PM, Nathan Stark said:

1. It's swords and spears at really close quarters. Even Ned's second raters could do damage to the Lannisters if they had some preparation. Take Syrio Forel vs. Meryn Trant as an example of how a third rater like Trant can defeat a superb warrior like Forel with the proper preparation like armor, steel weaponry, etc.

An interesting diversion, but let's not lose sight of the big picture. Cersei's troops outmatch Ned's by over one hundred to one. That is overwhelming force, unmissable even to the slowest defender.

If Cersei wanted the job done in a predictable way with minimum losses, she could just have demanded the Tower's surrender. She could surround the Tower, cut off food and water, show them Tom's body or Ned in chains. If that doesn't convince them, she could get Ned to order the surrender by telling him the red cloaks were about to storm the Tower where his daughters were trapped.

But no, this is Cersei! She ordered a bloody massacre, because that what she wants. There were no survivors, except Jeyne and Arya, and they got lucky. The Cersei I know would not give the tiniest damn if a few red cloaks lost their lives in the process.

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2. True.

3. Sansa was literally in the room when Ned sent Beric on the mission.

Yes. Septa Mordane took her there, without Ned's knowledge. He caught a glimpse of Septa Mordane in the gallery, with his daughter Sansa beside her. Ned felt a flash of anger; this was no place for a girl.


Couldn't be clearer: right now he wants Sansa to be innocent and ignorant and protected. This fits with something else - Ned has taken to eating alone with the girls, unlike at Winterfell when they regularly ate with the household. At the Tower of the Hand too, early on. No reason given, but most likely, now he's aware of danger, he doesn't want the girls overhearing serious soldier talk.

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4. She's interested enough to have an opinion on who Ned should have sent to face Gregor Clegane instead of Beric, i.e. Loras Tyrell.

Loras is gorgeous! And Beric is also pretty lovely. And Gregor was the star villain in Sandor's tragic life story. You bet she's interested. But not at all in where Fat Tom and the guys are, because that's just ordinary and boring.

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George's point isn't that Sansa needs to know every little detail aboit Ned's plans to have undermined him. She knew where the household gaurds were because she was part of Ned's household too. She knew which ship she and Arya were supposed to leave Kings Landing in, and we see men wearing Stark colors at the docks in Arya's final chapter, men she does not recognize. She knew where Arya and Syrio did their dancing lessons. Sansa had all sorts of knowlege of the kind that Cersei could make use of entirely because it was so intimate, and it allowed Cersei to close her net around the Starks much more easily than she would have otherwise.

Ned and Littlefinger both have much bigger roles in Ned's downfall than Sansa does, obviously. But it is ignoring the written text to say that Sansa had nothing at all to do with it. And we have George's own comments on the matter as well. You can believe he's just trolling if you really want to, but it seems clear to me that he isn't.

Tywin was Hand for decades - the red cloaks know every inch of the Tower. Obviously they have a better idea of defence issues than Sansa

There's no magic genius trick in the position of the guards. The red cloaks know the standard layout, and the guards will move anyway when the Tower comes under attack.

The ship and the dancing lesson have no impact on the fall of Ned. The ship is too late and the dancing lesson irrelevant to the fall of Ned. The fact that GRRM quotes these as contributing to the fall of Ned is proof that he's trolling.

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On 3/16/2021 at 8:18 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Even Ned's second raters could do damage to the Lannisters if they had some preparation. Take Syrio Forel vs. Meryn Trant as an example of how a third rater like Trant can defeat a superb warrior like Forel with the proper preparation like armor, steel weaponry, etc.

I see what you did there - but no. Trant is a third rate Kingsguard. The defenders of the Tower are second rate in the subset of soldiers Ned took south - the better soldiers going with Beric. Trant did beat one of those better soldiers in the Tourney - so you can't rank him lower.

 

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10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not so sure about Arya, her state of being has left her with the dream of survival. Although even in the before times Arya seemed like kind of a lost child who did not know what place she has in this world. 

Contrast that with Sansa or Theon who knew exactly what they wanted. Jaime I think is another good example of, if not a dreamer, an ex dreamer

Arya wanted to sword fight and go on adventures before the whole survival thing kicked in. She didn't want the class structure to exist and didn't understand how it had consequences.

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not so sure about Arya, her state of being has left her with the dream of survival. Although even in the before times Arya seemed like kind of a lost child who did not know what place she has in this world. 

Contrast that with Sansa or Theon who knew exactly what they wanted. Jaime I think is another good example of, if not a dreamer, an ex dreamer

I dont understand what you mean. Sansa wants what any girl watching a Disney movie wants. This gets her father killed? Lmaooo it's so over the top.

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15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I have to thank you - I laughed when I read this - for the first time in days.

Woah! Your welcome, you need to laugh more though. Good for the soul

15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Truly, Sansa is the gift that keeps on giving

Definitely

15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

the most remarkable, the wondefulest, the maddest characterisation in the history of literature. :D

"The maddest characterization in the history of literature" 

I feel like your mocking me, but I fucking love it :lol:

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Arya wanted to sword fight and go on adventures before the whole survival thing kicked in.

I feel like Arya only got into swords when Jon gave her needle, I dont remember her wanting to go on any adventures though, thats more like Bran

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont understand what you mean. Sansa wants what any girl watching a Disney movie wants. This gets her father killed? Lmaooo it's so over the top.

Nah nah lol. (Well maybe a little) like what i said earlier 

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think her fantasies had much to play in those situations, well maybe some like with that Mycha instance or squealing to Cersei, but mostly she just changes the landscape of the universe by breathing. 

Ok, like why did Ned go south? How did he find out Joffs biological father was? Why did he confess? What did Robb ask for during peace talks? Why did Joff die, or Lysa?

Just to name a few, Sansa is the maddest characterization in the history of literature :D

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5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I feel like Arya only got into swords when Jon gave her needle, I dont remember her wanting to go on any adventures though, thats more like Bran

Huh? That's all she wants to do!! Off having "adventures" all the time. She goes adventuring when they're passing through the Neck, she runs all over king's landing chasing a cat and goes into all kinds of strange buildings and streets, she climbs into people's windows...I mean.

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"It won't be so bad, Sansa," Arya said. "We're going to sail on a galley. It will be an adventure, and then we'll be with Bran and Robb again, and Old Nan and Hodor and the rest."

She tries to make an adventure out of the trip to KL, has one in KL, and then again on the way back home to KL. This is still going on even after she's alone -

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"Old Nan used to tell stories of boys who stowed away on trading galleys and sailed off into all kinds of adventures. Maybe Arya could do that too."

Even though Arya is addicted to living out "adventures" just like Sansa is addicted to living out fairytales, Arya's trait is portrayed as useful, cute, forgivable, and charming while Sansa's is portrayed as punishable, insipid, and worthless.

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Huh? That's all she wants to do!! Off having "adventures" all the time. She goes adventuring when they're passing through the Neck, she runs all over king's landing chasing a cat and goes into all kinds of strange buildings and streets, she climbs into people's windows...I mean.

She tries to make an adventure out of the trip to KL, has one in KL, and then again on the way back home to KL. This is still going on even after she's alone -

 

Shes adventurous and goes on mad adventures, true. But the dangers of fantasies that plague Theons world, and to a lesser extent Sansas and Jaimes, arent the same as Aryas joys of looking for Rhaegars rubies (even if that instance u did bring calamities. But Id blame Jon more then Arya for giving her a sword, but really drunk Sansa more for her witnessing. Although like you said thats dumb clinical and the only ones to blame for Mycha should be Cersei Robert and Ned... And Sandor lol)

Arya does have adventures but its so the goat doesnt cut off her legs or so she doesnt starve in the saltpens, not because of some childish dream to be an adventurer 

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Arya does have adventures but its so the goat doesnt cut off her legs or so she doesnt starve in the saltpens, not because of some childish dream to be an adventurer 

That was after survival mode - I'm talking about all this time before things went to hell. She did have childish dreams at the start like Sansa and she romanticized the "explorer" life, but it's less apparent because it's not focused around 1 awful person (Joffrey). She was also written by the author to have a similar naivete, but it doesn't *get a family member killed* (which seems one-sided from the author). After the fact, she learns the adventures aren't as fun...or shouldn't be fun, as she thought they would be. 

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17 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That was after survival mode - I'm talking about all this time before things went to hell. She did have childish dreams at the start like Sansa and she romanticized the "explorer" life,

Idk, I never got that vibe. To me she seemed lost. She just knew she didnt want to be a stay at home wife and mother

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Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing.

 

17 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

it's less apparent because it's not focused around 1 awful person (Joffrey). She was also written by the author to have a similar naivete, but it doesn't *get a family member killed* (which seems one-sided from the author).

Lol, I dont understand the need to compare between the two

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  • 2 weeks later...

So rethinking about this, I think there is going to be another similarity to the original plot.

Arya would return to Westeros, and become an agent of revenge for Catelyn against the Freys. Chances are that Catelyn would not kill Brienne, Jaime, Sandor, but rather bring them under her Brotherhood Without Banner's plot against the Freys, which Jaime can contribute to. They have a debt to pay, or at least Jaime does. Sandor is one who could also reveal the truth about Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned.

In any case, once that is taken care of, Catelyn's focus would shift north, to Winterfell, where Jon is now said to rule. Jon's reputation would likely be confused with various rumors, even confused with "Lord Snow" Ramsay Bolton, and the belief among the gang would be that he has taken Winterfell out of self-interest. Arya would likely confront Jon, with Catelyn utterly refusing to recognize the truth about him, but someway somehow things are eventually worked out. The truth about Littlefinger having come out they would proceed to kill him as well.

I think it ties back closely to the original idea of Catelyn, Sansa and Arya going north. Plus, it brings a lot of characters together for the coming battle against the Others.

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15 hours ago, Egged said:

I think it ties back closely to the original idea of Catelyn, Sansa and Arya going north. Plus, it brings a lot of characters together for the coming battle against the Others.

Where was this original outline* stated? It's not in the outline. 

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