GRRM's Original Outline "What has changed?"

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

Hello,

Now you all know Martin's letter he wrote in '93. When this letter was written and sent to the editor, the first 13 chapters (200 pages) were already written(Of course, Martin was angry at the release of this letter, because technically it contains spoilers about the story line and the plot). In addition, the book consisted of three volumes of the first stage, but as you know, but its 7 volumes now. When we read the letter and the first 5 books, the first comment made was very different and different from the first outline; one or two things remain the same. But is it really? Here I would like to discuss this with you. I think I will go through the events step by step and you will make your own contributions when you read. Let's start!

Martin plotted the story around 3 main conflicts; The Stark-Lannister war, the invasion by Dany and The Others. These remain exactly as they were originally designed.

1. Stark-Lannister war. It's remain, nothing changed.

2. (Dany) Targaryen's 7K invasion with Dothraks. It's still did not happend but we know Dany has Unsullied and some sellswords and next book, she will have Dothraks too. She will linger a little more in Essos and then come to the West for the conquer. It's remain too.

3. The Others. GRRM said " Their story will be [sic] heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. " It's remain too.

4. Five Main Key Characters (Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany and Tyrion). " In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow." It's remain too.

5. Fall of the Starks. " Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. " Yes, indeed it happened.

6. Dead of Robert and long may live new king! "Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn... will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will to brutal Joffrey, still a minor." Yes, it happened too. This substance remained the same too. The secret is the same secret obviously.

7. Sansa and Joffrey. "Sansa Stark wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. " Sansa betrays her family anyway but she did not wed Joffrey or bear his son. But Sansa wed a Lannisyer anyway. This substance has changed a bit. 

8. Bran's coma and dream and greenseer and dead of Robb. " Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream... He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake... Robb Stark will die in battle."

Bran's the same; the secret is the same secret, certain and Bran was also injured for the same reason. But Robb's got some change. Robb doesn't die in a war against Joffrey, Jaime and Tyrion. But he really wins a few battles at first (against Tywin. So there's no Tywin in the first place) and then he dies at the Red Wedding. GRRM explained the issue of Robb as follows. Ned dies and naturally the eldest son avenges his father. This is a general reader expectation. By killing Ned, Martin wanted to destroy his perception of heroes' safety. Robb is the second part of the same goal. Everyone thought that Robb, who won the victories, would avenge his father, but he died at the end of the day. This is the second shock for us. So Robb was used in the same way as it was originally planned for.

Bran's in a coma. So Jaime and Cersei are standing exactly. This shows that Jon Arryn's death is due to his learning of the relationship(Jaime-Cersei). So Joff was a bastard in the first outline too. Ned died for the same reason.

Tyrion did not burn Winterfell but fought against Stark army and became Hand of King. Jaime fought against Robb too and lost, was captured. This part is different in some ways, but the same in some ways.

9. Jon Snow, The Wall and Lord Commander. " Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch "

Jon goes the wall and will became lord commander but Benjen was lord commander in the first place but it seems he dies anyway or disappear. It's remain.

10. Helping family and JonArya Love. " When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving ... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book. "

Winterfell is being burned by Greyjoys. Cat is not with Stark children, she is with Robb. Bran and others run away and went to the Wall. But Bran and others did not take refuge in the black brothers. Jon has something to do with Arya again. He wants to protect and save her(FArya). He can't do it because of his vows and he's in a lot of pain... And we know who is Jon's real parents.

Jon and Arya love... It's still too early to say anything about it. When Arya goes to the wall, the love between the two emerges. Arya escaped from KL as in the first outline. But instead of going home, she drifted into her own adventure. Arya has been trying to get home and Jon all along. She'll probably go straight to the wall when she gets back from Braavos. There are so many hints about Jonarya love in books. ( https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/125364-jon-arya-hints-and-overall-significance-of-their-relationship-including-part-3/  )

11. Beyond The Wall and Bran-Cat-Arya. "Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others."

This part has undergone significant changes. Despite this, some small parts remained.

Arya is not with them, Cat neither but she dies anyway (and came back but as fire wight not ice wight). Bran never meet Mance(yes, Mance exists) and see others but he sees deads and met Cold Hand(ice wight) and BR and Singers. As a result, Bran character goes beyond the wall and meets with BR and Singers to learn how to use his magic. Bran's theme stays the same.  I guess Rickon is not exists, not sure(He did not mention Cersei but we can sure she is exist this secret of Arryn's dead and Bran's coma thing. So maybe he didn't want to mention about Rickon).

Arya has Needle, that's mean Jon gave her it anyway. And direwolves...

12. Dany, Viserys and Drogo. “Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Danerys [sic] will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. " 

Only 5% of this part has changed.

13. Dragon Eggs and Invasion Plans."There, hunted by [unclear] of her life, she stumbles on a [something about dragon eggs] a young dragon will give Daenerys [unclear] bend [unclear] to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms." 

This part has changed 95%.

14. Tyrion's Fate. "Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow."

Yes, it seems this plot almost completely changed. But Tyrion has been betrayed by his family in every way(Tysha thing and attempt to kill), just it changed "how it will be" This betrayal caused him to change sides. Only on Targaryen side instead of Stark. But Tyrion will probably be on the Stark side too. Tyrion's story, theme is the same.

Tyrion is exiled to Essos, not north. Jaime's not the bad guy in the story, Cersei is(He doesn't write in the letter, but GRRM planned Jaime to be a complex character from the very beginning,he said that some details were revealed at the writing stage. Although Jaime in the letter seems to be pure evil but if we look what grrm said he is not, he probably has a different; his "ambition" than the current Jaime). Joffrey's dying. In the first outline, Jaime kills everyone, so Sansa is dead. In the present story, Sansa is still alive and her story continues. They're not named, but probably Joff's siblings are in the first outline and they're dead.

There's no competition between Tyrion and Jon( for Arya). It's hard to expect it at this point. We need to wait for the next encounter, but I don't think it will. Not sure actually. Unlike the first otline, Jon and Tyrion are good friends. If GRRM designs a love triangle like the first one, maybe they can be enemies. Or maybe he changed the third candidate for that love triangle(Gendry? Dany?). (However, if you read Mercy POV, GRRM is waving his hand to this love triangle there.)

But there is a detail like this.

Winterfell is burned by Ramsay, and Jon struggles to save Arya from Ramsay. Although indirectly, there is a triangle of Jon, Arya and Ramsay on the stage.

THE RESULT

In general, the outline / skeleton remains exactly the same, even the characters' motives are more or less the same; there are big changes in a few places, but not so big changes in the remaining parts. Same affliction, betrayal and so on that will ensure the development of the character. Situations occurred in one way or another. It's just that things have gone differently ... but betrayal comes from the family again and (Jon) he's suffering because he can't help the family.

In fact, this is what confuses most readers. When readers look at what is described in the letter, they focus on the "plot". 

But there are two things described in this outline; story line and plot.

The story line can be defined as the theme of the character and the books in general. The plot is the events that happened. 

For example; GRRM wanted Jon to develop, grow, and empower himself by joining an organization. He also wanted Jon to be split in two between his vows and loved ones. This is Jon's theme, the story arc.

The plot is this; Jon joined NW. Jon was split between his vows and Robb, Ned, Ygritte, being lord of Winterfell and Arya. In the first outline, it was with the Cat, Bran and Arya plot, but later it was like now.

GRRM wanted Tyrion to fight alongside his own family in the first place against the Starks, but then to be betrayed by his family and switch sides. In other words, Tyrion's family conflict and questioning life is his story line, his theme.

Plot; In the first outline, this happened with Jaime's actions. In the current story, Cersei and Tywin are also added as well as Jaime. In addition, the plot in his war against the Starks is a bit different, but basically Tyrion fought against the Starks again. The theme is the same, but there are some differences in the plot.

So you can see that the first outline has not changed in general. The general theme, the story line is the same. Some of the plots are exactly the same, some are a little the same, and some are completely different. Even in the plots, there are actually not such great deviations according to GRRM.

In fact, this is a bit of necessity because as the number of books increased, the story of the characters expanded. For example, when it was first planned, there probably were no city conquests in Dany's plot (at least that way), she would take Dothraki directly and come because there were 3 books in total. But the situation changed when the volume of books increased to 4-6 and 7. Dany's plot had to be expanded because according to the story line, Dany's time had not yet come, so many plots were added to her story.

Martin knows the fate of the key five characters, Sansa, and big Lannisters. He also said that some major character wrote the arcs as he had planned from the beginning. 

He keeps his end.

Quote

 

GEORGE: […]As I write these last two books, I’ll be moving towards the ending I’ve known since 1991/

...

“Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion’s arc was gonna be through this, what Arya’s arc was gonna be through this, what JonSnow’s arc is gonna be. ”

...

I don’t want to reveal what I’ve planned for some of these characters, but I’m pretty well on track with most of the major characters. It’s minor characters like Bronn that assume greater importance.”

...

At Balticon 2016 he said he knows who sits on the Iron Throne at the end.

...

A year later, in a video interview he continued by saying he has always known the fates of his main characters, who lives or dies, marries who...etc since 1991 when he began writing.

 

 

Also...

Quote

 

Q: Have the plotlines diverged much since you began writing the series, or did you have the entire plot more or less figured out from the very beginning? Were any characters added or further fleshed out beyond your original intention? Have you made any changes to your initial plans during the course of the writing of the series?

GRRM: I won’t say the plotlines have diverged, but the process of getting from here to there has taken more time and more pages than I initially estimated… perhaps because I found the places and people I encountered along the way so interesting. The secondary and tertiary characters are largely to blame, the spearcarriers who keep insisting that they’re human too, when all I want them to do is stand there and be quiet and hold that spear. Yes, some of my initial plans have changed along the way. If they hadn’t, I would just be connecting the dots, and that would drive me mad. Some writers are architects and some are gardeners, and I am in the second camp. The tale takes on a life of its own in the writing. - SSM 2006

...

Question:  How different is the plot from what he originally envisioned?

GRRM: Not different - just more of it. It has grown in complexity but he likes it that way because it feels real to him. - SSM 2010

 

 

That's all. Thank you for read and I apologize if I have grammatical mistakes. Bye.

[Egged]

Thanks for compiling that.

 

The most meaningful part to me is Sansa. I expected her to be wife of Aegon (who I believed will actually be king at the end, with Bran ruling as a magical-puppeteer from the north), and with Sansa likely manipulating Aegon in the interest of the Starks.  But my original expectation had been her marrying Aegon and detaching from her family entirely. The thing is the later makes her of low interest for marriage to the king if true.

But in the back of my mind, the death of Lady always remained as an indication she would not remain a Stark and reject her family, and reading her first chapter (as I often believe the first chapter of every POV spells their ending) strengthens that.

I don’t see how she can become queen while forgoing her family, where is the benefit for the king? I guess it may reflect poorly on the Starks, but not necessarily so with the rest of the North and the Riverlands. So I guess it still works even if she becomes more of a Tully than Stark.

Yet being a queen would make her happy, so maybe instead she will end her life akin to how Lysenne Hightower did. Maybe a bored little bird singing songs in a high tower of the Vale. Maybe jump to her death in grief.

[Daeron the Daring]

I think except for the 5 major characters, everyone else was changed, in a bigger or a smaller scale. I mean their personality.

On the other hand, Aegon got included, the Dornish plot got included, the Ironborn got included, so was the Reach, Stannis and Renly, and I think he gave up on his live triangle with Tyrion, Jon and Arya. I doubt the characters originally were as young as they got in the end (Arya, Sansa, Bran). I imagine at least Arya and Sansa to be older to be part of such stories and love triangles.

By knowing the ending all the time, I think he meant the entire living v dead plot. Who is TPTWP, and etc. Everything else I think had been trough major remaking, and I doubt the romances he originally planned will ever be on page.

[SeanF]

I disagree with the O/P.  The plot has diverged markedly from the original outline.

Everything had to be rewritten to take account of scrapping the five year gap.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

45 minutes ago, Egged said:

Thanks for compiling that.

 

I thank you for read.

When I read the letter, we see that there is not much information about Sansa's plot. Considering that the story is designed as three books, Martin would start Dany's invasion in the second book, and the aftermath was the Dawn war ... Sansa does not have a position to take part in such a short story cycle. For this reason, she was probably killed with her son in the first book. It's kind of like the Elia thing if you actually pay attention. Slightly different ways, of course. Jaime would probably use the Mountain for this. As the volume of the book grew, so did Sansa's plot. Will he still die at the end of the story? Believe me, I don't know, but if we look at the first outline, she's dying. Martin said he know her arc, fate too in the very beginning. I think there are signs on this subject in the books. Still, she has a 50% chance for her to survive and die to me. If i see another things my idea might change later.

Martin planned to marry Sansa to someone. Unlike the first plan, he married him to Tyrion, who became Lord instead of Joffrey, who was king. The name of Sansa's wolf is Lady. Probably this is a sign that she will remain a lady forever. Names are foreshadowing. Anyway, while Sansa is still married, he cannot marry anyone. Divorce is very rare, but he has a condition that can cancel his marriage, but he has to apply to the High Sparrow or the Faith council for this, it is almost impossible under these conditions. I passed it all. Sansa is charged with Joffrey's murder. Martin wanted to marry her to a Lannister essentially anyway, and he did, but why? I think this is worth questioning.

53 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think except for the 5 major characters, everyone else was changed, in a bigger or a smaller scale. I mean their personality.

On the other hand, Aegon got included, the Dornish plot got included, the Ironborn got included, so was the Reach, Stannis and Renly, and I think he gave up on his live triangle with Tyrion, Jon and Arya. I doubt the characters originally were as young as they got in the end (Arya, Sansa, Bran). I imagine at least Arya and Sansa to be older to be part of such stories and love triangles.

By knowing the ending all the time, I think he meant the entire living v dead plot. Who is TPTWP, and etc. Everything else I think had been trough major remaking, and I doubt the romances he originally planned will ever be on page.

Actually, if we pay attention, Martin doesn't mention too many characters other than 5 main characters. Other than that, he doesn't mention anything about their personalities either, just their actions. Of course, we can make some personality determinations by looking at those actions. For example, Sansa has the same personality and Arya and Jon too. Also Dany and Tyrion. There is also Ned. It is very difficult to comment on Jaime, as I said at first, Jaime mentioned in the letter is very ambitious and obviously very brutal. While Jaime isn't pure evil, he appears to be in the story as the main archenemy in the books, so I think Jaime has changed at least 50%. So important ones are the 5 main characters. You-re right, almost nothing has changed about them, it is the same.

Age is a very obsessive issue in this fandom. I think people should get over this.

GRRM wanted to grow the age of the children quickly in the first stage, but the pace of the story did not allow it. 

So he decided to make the 5-year gap in the future and continued to write the story with confidence. When Martin got to the 4th book, he started writing the book like this, but he had to give up because this gap of space for adult characters caused meaninglessness in the plot. Martin's goal was for Arya and Bran (and others) to grow up and their training to complete. But he said no one could wait Arya to enter puberty. : D He even said in one of the statements that if he had to conquer the world at the age of 12, so be it. He did not the name it, but it is thought that Arya is mentioned in the new book as she will turn 12 years old.

As a result, Martin will now do what he was trying to do with a five-year gap in a different way, but he never mentioned the details. First of all, it should not be forgotten. If Martin continue with his romantic plans, he put in a lot of hints and prepared the way for it. He never gives up on these because of his age problem. I put everything aside; Martin said if he puts hints and then stop putting them into action, it makes him a lier and he is not a lier. 

Quote

A year later, in a video interview he continued by saying he has always known the fates of his main characters, who lives or dies, marries who...etc since 1991 when he began writing.

 

59 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I disagree with the O/P.  The plot has diverged markedly from the original outline.

Everything had to be rewritten to take account of scrapping the five year gap.

Martin says "no" but you say "yes"

GEORGE: […]As I write these last two books, I’ll be moving towards the ending I’ve known since 1991/

...

“Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion’s arc was gonna be through this, what Arya’s arc was gonna be through this, what JonSnow’s arc is gonna be. ”

...

I don’t want to reveal what I’ve planned for some of these characters, but I’m pretty well on track with most of the major characters. It’s minor characters like Bronn that assume greater importance.”

...

At Balticon 2016 he said he knows who sits on the Iron Throne at the end.

...

A year later, in a video interview he continued by saying he has always known the fates of his main characters, who lives or dies, marries who...etc since 1991 when he began writing.

 

 

Also...

  Quote

 

Q: Have the plotlines diverged much since you began writing the series, or did you have the entire plot more or less figured out from the very beginning? Were any characters added or further fleshed out beyond your original intention? Have you made any changes to your initial plans during the course of the writing of the series?

GRRM: I won’t say the plotlines have diverged, but the process of getting from here to there has taken more time and more pages than I initially estimated… perhaps because I found the places and people I encountered along the way so interesting. The secondary and tertiary characters are largely to blame, the spearcarriers who keep insisting that they’re human too, when all I want them to do is stand there and be quiet and hold that spear. Yes, some of my initial plans have changed along the way. If they hadn’t, I would just be connecting the dots, and that would drive me mad. Some writers are architects and some are gardeners, and I am in the second camp. The tale takes on a life of its own in the writing. - SSM 2006

...

Question:  How different is the plot from what he originally envisioned?

GRRM: Not different - just more of it. It has grown in complexity but he likes it that way because it feels real to him. - SSM 2010

 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

I thank you for read.

When I read the letter, we see that there is not much information about Sansa's plot. Considering that the story is designed as three books, Martin would start Dany's invasion in the second book, and the aftermath was the Dawn war ... Sansa does not have a position to take part in such a short story cycle. For this reason, she was probably killed with her son in the first book. It's kind of like the Elia thing if you actually pay attention. Slightly different ways, of course. Jaime would probably use the Mountain for this. As the volume of the book grew, so did Sansa's plot. Will he still die at the end of the story? Believe me, I don't know, but if we look at the first outline, she's dying. Martin said he know her arc, fate too in the very beginning. I think there are signs on this subject in the books. Still, she has a 50% chance for her to survive and die to me. If i see another things my idea might change later.

Martin planned to marry Sansa to someone. Unlike the first plan, he married him to Tyrion, who became Lord instead of Joffrey, who was king. The name of Sansa's wolf is Lady. Probably this is a sign that she will remain a lady forever. Names are foreshadowing. Anyway, while Sansa is still married, he cannot marry anyone. Divorce is very rare, but he has a condition that can cancel his marriage, but he has to apply to the High Sparrow or the Faith council for this, it is almost impossible under these conditions. I passed it all. Sansa is charged with Joffrey's murder. Martin wanted to marry her to a Lannister essentially anyway, and he did, but why? I think this is worth questioning.

Actually, if we pay attention, Martin doesn't mention too many characters other than 5 main characters. Other than that, he doesn't mention anything about their personalities either, just their actions. Of course, we can make some personality determinations by looking at those actions. For example, Sansa has the same personality and Arya and Jon too. Also Dany and Tyrion. There is also Ned. It is very difficult to comment on Jaime, as I said at first, Jaime mentioned in the letter is very ambitious and obviously very brutal. While Jaime isn't pure evil, he appears to be in the story as the main archenemy in the books, so I think Jaime has changed at least 50%. So important ones are the 5 main characters. You-re right, almost nothing has changed about them, it is the same.

Age is a very obsessive issue in this fandom. I think people should get over this.

GRRM wanted to grow the age of the children quickly in the first stage, but the pace of the story did not allow it. 

So he decided to make the 5-year gap in the future and continued to write the story with confidence. When Martin got to the 4th book, he started writing the book like this, but he had to give up because this gap of space for adult characters caused meaninglessness in the plot. Martin's goal was for Arya and Bran (and others) to grow up and their training to complete. But he said no one could wait Arya to enter puberty. : D He even said in one of the statements that if he had to conquer the world at the age of 12, so be it. He did not the name it, but it is thought that Arya is mentioned in the new book as she will turn 12 years old.

As a result, Martin will now do what he was trying to do with a five-year gap in a different way, but he never mentioned the details. First of all, it should not be forgotten. If Martin continue with his romantic plans, he put in a lot of hints and prepared the way for it. He never gives up on these because of his age problem. I put everything aside; Martin said if he puts hints and then stop putting them into action, it makes him a lier and he is not a lier. 

 

Martin says "no" but you say "yes"

GEORGE: […]As I write these last two books, I’ll be moving towards the ending I’ve known since 1991/

...

“Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion’s arc was gonna be through this, what Arya’s arc was gonna be through this, what JonSnow’s arc is gonna be. ”

...

I don’t want to reveal what I’ve planned for some of these characters, but I’m pretty well on track with most of the major characters. It’s minor characters like Bronn that assume greater importance.”

...

At Balticon 2016 he said he knows who sits on the Iron Throne at the end.

...

A year later, in a video interview he continued by saying he has always known the fates of his main characters, who lives or dies, marries who...etc since 1991 when he began writing.

 

 

Also...

  Quote

 

Q: Have the plotlines diverged much since you began writing the series, or did you have the entire plot more or less figured out from the very beginning? Were any characters added or further fleshed out beyond your original intention? Have you made any changes to your initial plans during the course of the writing of the series?

GRRM: I won’t say the plotlines have diverged, but the process of getting from here to there has taken more time and more pages than I initially estimated… perhaps because I found the places and people I encountered along the way so interesting. The secondary and tertiary characters are largely to blame, the spearcarriers who keep insisting that they’re human too, when all I want them to do is stand there and be quiet and hold that spear. Yes, some of my initial plans have changed along the way. If they hadn’t, I would just be connecting the dots, and that would drive me mad. Some writers are architects and some are gardeners, and I am in the second camp. The tale takes on a life of its own in the writing. - SSM 2006

...

Question:  How different is the plot from what he originally envisioned?

GRRM: Not different - just more of it. It has grown in complexity but he likes it that way because it feels real to him. - SSM 2010

 

Death of the author.

We can compare the published text with the original outline. 

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

We can compare the published text with the original outline. 

That's what's already done on this topic.

[Egged]

@YeniAy_Ottoman

I think Aegon will give no pity to any Lannister, which is something I hadn't thought of before: he would be unlikely to marry Sansa after she had already been married to the Demon-Monkey Lannister. Even if he was good-hearted and above it, there is the whole propaganda-oriented image built around him that would push him to find a better marriage.

But since I am pretty sure Arianne will die at Storm's End (since I think the old stories are about the future, Durran Godsgrief would be yet to come), that would leave Aegon with few options left. Sansa would be one, but I could see poor little Margaery. It doesn't make for a bad story, and it's also funny how she keeps getting married left and right and it all goes to shit every time. Especially if she is absolved of all wrong doing at her trial with everything blamed on Cersei.

Well, without Sansa as queen, I think I have to throw away my belief that Aegon would be king by the end of the story.  And since I saw Jaime's ending relating to Brienne becoming Sansa+Aegon's queenguard/kingsguard, then that throws it all out the window too. Interesting.

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Tyrion did not burn Winterfell

Yeah you can see how some plots were kept but new characters were created to do that, Ramsay/Theon.

4 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Sansa betrays her family anyway but she did not wed Joffrey or bear his son. But Sansa wed a Lannisyer anyway. This substance has changed a bit. 

Mainly with the introduction to Littlefinger. I think he realized Sansa's potential in those very early draft and re-wrote her. I dont think he had a firm idea of what to do with Sansa when he wrote this letter (he said he was making up a lot of stuff and I can see it). Queen is emphasized in her first chapter, she'll just take a different route to get there.

4 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

So Jaime and Cersei are standing exactly.

I dont remember Cersei being mentioned in the outline?

4 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

they will seek refuge at the Wall

I think Sansa will go there instead.

[Nathan Stark]

One big change was adding Sansa to the list of main povs. (And no, she is not going to betray her family or lose her Stark identity.) It still amazes me that people think she isn't a major part of this series.

I disagree with the OP about Jon and Arya being an item. George scrapped that plotline, likely because of the added Tyrion love-triangle aspect that just makes things too convoluted. He added Gendry instead.

Also, Davos Seasworth was not originally envisioned as a character at all until ACoK, let alone a pov. George invented him out of scratch because he wanted a pov on Stannis..

[Egged]

The Sansa bit, I think there is a chance that her original plotline stopped around the Joffrey-marriage bit. But now her story was extended forward. If it had ended there, it would have fit the original plot line: she happily marries Joffrey, and pays dearly for it, the end. But now that her story was extended, anything goes, and her terrible fate in the original plotline could not be turned in a trial instead, father than just having the same conclusion pushed further.

I feel that by all indications, Sansa has already learned her lesson, but it's been a while since I read the books so I don't remember if she is still dreaming of knights singing songs and all as if she hadn't learned the truth about it all. I haven't read any TWoW chapters.

If she is still holding onto her original dreams, then ok, George may be just pushing the same ending he had planned for her further down. But if not, I think it means she has a different fate ahead, even if not necessarily one where she remains a Stark. She might end up in a situation where she wish she had, can't anymore, but accepts her mistakes and moves on wiser.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

20 hours ago, Egged said:

I think Aegon will give no pity to any Lannister, which is something I hadn't thought of before: he would be unlikely to marry Sansa after she had already been married to the Demon-Monkey Lannister. Even if he was good-hearted and above it, there is the whole propaganda-oriented image built around him that would push him to find a better marriage.

But since I am pretty sure Arianne will die at Storm's End (since I think the old stories are about the future, Durran Godsgrief would be yet to come), that would leave Aegon with few options left. Sansa would be one, but I could see poor little Margaery. It doesn't make for a bad story, and it's also funny how she keeps getting married left and right and it all goes to shit every time. Especially if she is absolved of all wrong doing at her trial with everything blamed on Cersei.

Well, without Sansa as queen, I think I have to throw away my belief that Aegon would be king by the end of the story.  And since I saw Jaime's ending relating to Brienne becoming Sansa+Aegon's queenguard/kingsguard, then that throws it all out the window too. Interesting.

I saw a theory that Arianne would die at sea( from a youtuber). I don't remember who it was, but it made a lot of sense. According to Yin-Yang philosophy, Arienne's brother died by fire and she will die by water. Martin is definitely using this philosophy anyway, I'm sure. For example, the door of FM's house fully expresses a yin-yang philosophy.

But I don't know when Arienne will die. I don't see any connection between Aegon's being king and Sansa or anyone else. But I don't think Aegon will ever be king at the end of the story, I can't say I saw any sign of that. But I want Aegon to survive, I have positive feelings for him.

I don't think Aegon could marry Sansa before the story ends, but if Tyrion dies or somehow canceled the marriage at the end of the story, he could marry Sansa. So there is a possibility, but I'm not sure if the story will go in this direction, i doubt. Nevertheless, I believe some things become clearer in the 6th book, then I think we can make healthier inferences.

17 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

One big change was adding Sansa to the list of main povs. (And no, she is not going to betray her family or lose her Stark identity.) It still amazes me that people think she isn't a major part of this series.

I disagree with the OP about Jon and Arya being an item. George scrapped that plotline, likely because of the added Tyrion love-triangle aspect that just makes things too convoluted. He added Gendry instead.

Also, Davos Seasworth was not originally envisioned as a character at all until ACoK, let alone a pov. George invented him out of scratch because he wanted a pov on Stannis..

I think all the characters play an important role in this series of books, only some of them are much more important. Underestimating the characters is really an inappropriate approach. However, making the some characters too important is also inappropriate. As a result, even the tiniest character can have a significant impact on the story. 

The theme is the same, there are some changes in the plot but generally little. The biggest change I can see is Jaime's arc, but he's not one of the key five characters anyway, his arc's change is usual. Martin said he wrote the major characters and story as he had planned from the beginning. He added that it's not much of a deviation from his original plan, but the story just got a lot bigger. Actually, these little characters have an effect on this. He discovers these characters along the way, Davos is just one of them. I've already shared Martin's interviews on this issue. I love the details, Martin is a good writer on this subject. Martin had already said he was obsessed with details.

14 hours ago, Egged said:

The Sansa bit, I think there is a chance that her original plotline stopped around the Joffrey-marriage bit. But now her story was extended forward. If it had ended there, it would have fit the original plot line: she happily marries Joffrey, and pays dearly for it, the end. But now that her story was extended, anything goes, and her terrible fate in the original plotline could not be turned in a trial instead, father than just having the same conclusion pushed further.

I feel that by all indications, Sansa has already learned her lesson, but it's been a while since I read the books so I don't remember if she is still dreaming of knights singing songs and all as if she hadn't learned the truth about it all. I haven't read any TWoW chapters.

If she is still holding onto her original dreams, then ok, George may be just pushing the same ending he had planned for her further down. But if not, I think it means she has a different fate ahead, even if not necessarily one where she remains a Stark. She might end up in a situation where she wish she had, can't anymore, but accepts her mistakes and moves on wiser.

Some people think Sansa learned her lesson. I do not think like this. Of course she learned some things; Lannisters cannot be trusted; Just because a person is handsome, there is no guarantee that he will not be monstrous; she is aware that no one will marry her for love (everyone is after her legacy) ... She's aware of little things like that. In my opinion, she didn't learn the biggest lesson she had to learn; to know who to trust.

Sansa still has a problem trusting the wrong people. She thinks Petyr is her friend, admires him in some ways and sees him as brave, believes in the bad lies he told ... For example; Lysa told the whole truth (she killed her husband at LF's request, and the letter she sent to Cat, etc.) ... LF told Sansa "she was crazy, you saw it." he denied everything. But then Sansa said in one scene, "That woman was crazy ... that woman killed her own husband." she said. Now if Lysa is crazy, she shouldn't have believed anything she said, but she believes she killed her husband. So she believes in everything but doesn't she believe that LF instigates? Why? Because LF said so. In another scene, Sansa, LF and Petry are two different faces; LF is unreliable, but I can trust Petry. 

So actually Sansa is aware of some things. But she lies to herself and denies the facts. She has such a problem. Sansa's arc is about lying(and telling secrets that she should keep it), not just to others but also to herself.

The first Arya POV ... we saw Sansa telling a small lie. Everyone is doing this, we didn't care. Jon warned Arya, saying, "Never tell Sansa." Arya recalled this phrase in book 4, in a meaningless time. Sansa lied about liking horse riding in her own POV, for Joff. On top of that, the Mycah incident later happened and she lied about it as well. 

After that, the problem starts to grow.

Sansa begins to believe the lie she told, and in Sansa's mind, Mycah is now the one who attacked Joff. She keeps tell this. Sansa actually saw Joff's true face in the Mycaj affair, and the queen's ture face too ... But when she came to KL and saw this life, she directed all her anger and accusations to Arya. 

Later, Sansa tells Cersei an important secret, and in this way Cersei has the opportunity to attack Ned with a quick plan, and she learns from Sansa where she will find Arya. So the secret she didn't keep costs Ned's life and more.

In subsequent books we saw that Sansa continues to lie - to survive. She had to do that anyway, it's not a criticism, I'm just trying to explain her arc and its effect on her. But then her memory started to error on something else besides the Mycah issue; Sandor and the kiss. After that, Sansa begins to recall a false memory of Sandor kissing her, and this continues.
 

Sanda reveals a secret for the second time while in KL. This time it's a secret that radically changes her own destiny for the second time. Olenna Tyrell talks about her plan to marry Sansa, and then Sansa goes and tells Dontos the secret. (the matter of trusting the wrong people continues) Dontos tells LF this and LF tells Tywin. So Sansa is taken prisoner for the second time, by marriage. Then there are the LF events. This constant problem of lying and not keeping secrets creates problems in Sansa's story and affects her very negatively. Obviously this will continue and in the future, Sansa will hurt both herself and her family because of this lie and inability to keep secrets. Martin had already made thought-provoking statements regarding this error memory. He drew attention to her psychology and asked the fans back, saying what do you think it means.

 

[Egged]

Just realized, her being a little bird who sings or be made to sing can be interpreted as not only a bird which sings even if caged, but also of one spilling secrets. A singing bird is a common analogy for traitors, and Varys has his "little birds". So Sansa = traitor.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

8 hours ago, Egged said:

Just realized, her being a little bird who sings or be made to sing can be interpreted as not only a bird which sings even if caged, but also of one spilling secrets. A singing bird is a common analogy for traitors, and Varys has his "little birds". So Sansa = traitor.

True.  Still, the word "traitor" might be a bit of an exaggeration, because Sansa doesn't do these for treason. But I guess Sansa is the second closest thing to the treason. I am still dwelling on the possibility of an arc at the end of the story in which she will notice the wrong things she has done and try to correct. This probability is 50% for me. The other 50% probability is that Sansa will eventually die. In the future, I may have a more precise and clear opinion on this subject. My opinions tend to change.

On 3/4/2021 at 1:55 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah you can see how some plots were kept but new characters were created to do that, Ramsay/Theon.

 

Sorry, I missed your comment last night. True. GRRM sticks to the overall theme and character arc. However, he completely altered or partially altered some plot or continued to preserve it as you indicated, and wrote other characters for these plots.

On 3/4/2021 at 1:55 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Just realized, her being a little bird who sings or be made to sing can be interpreted as not only a bird which sings even if caged, but also of one spilling secrets. A singing bird is a common analogy for traitors, and Varys has his "little birds". So Sansa = traitor.

This part is an inference. So ... Bran was in a coma and was crippled. Why is that? Ned learned the secret of Jon Arryn's death, which eventually caused him to mobilize against the Lannisters, and the result ... What is that secret?

Why would Bran get injured and go into a coma? If Jaime doesn't try to kill him? Why would Jaime try to kill him, if Bran doesn't see him with Cersei? Why would Jon Arryn die if he didn't learn such a secret? Why would he attempt to fight the Lannisters if he didn't learn about Jaime and Cersei? So yes, Martin didn't mention Cersei, but that's how we can see him exist as a result.

On 3/4/2021 at 1:55 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Sansa will go there instead.

There is no reason for that. First of all, Sansa alone can never achieve this. Second, Sansa has no good reason to go there. The North is in the hands of enemies and she knows what the Wall' codes, what will she get if Sansa got there? Where will she hope Jon will send her, how will she protect her? Sansa is indeed safer where she is, there is no other safe place for her righ now. Also, Jon's arc has nothing to do with Sansa's arc. Arya and Jon have arcs and even Arya has a connection with the north and Stannis as arc.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/158500-aryas-return-to-westeros-to-where/

[Rose of Red Lake]

10 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

There is no reason for that. First of all, Sansa alone can never achieve this. Second, Sansa has no good reason to go there. The North is in the hands of enemies and she knows what the Wall' codes, what will she get if Sansa got there? Where will she hope Jon will send her, how will she protect her? Sansa is indeed safer where she is, there is no other safe place for her righ now. Also, Jon's arc has nothing to do with Sansa's arc. Arya and Jon have arcs and even Arya has a connection with the north and Stannis as arc.

Sansa is feeling very safe and secure in the Vale right now which should be a huge flashing sign that things are about to go to shit. She is trusting Littlefinger too much and this will probably involve another "lesson" for her. Also, since GRRM says that this is a series of books where the main heroine can be raped I think LF will try an attempted assault. He's been drinking a lot and getting more and more "handsy." There was also the line dropped by Miranda about Jon's promotion. Which seems like something very out-of-the-blue, and seems like a set up. She explicitly thinks Jon is the only family member alive and knows that he's in command of the Wall. So an assault from Littlefinger --> flees to the Wall. Just as Sansa is being set up to re-take Winterfell in the Harry plot, Stannis is trying to get Jon to usurp her. Jon declines because he says WF belongs to Sansa. So Jon and Sansa are both prime candidates for ruling the North, and both are undergoing leadership arcs (YES Sansa is in a leadership arc believe it or not). You will probably disagree since I detect some Arya/Sansa jealousy, which is always the way this goes. Any advancement in Sansa's plot is seen as taking away from Arya's.

[BlackLightning]

I'm with @SeanF

There are some major differences to the outline. But you can tell that GRRM kept certain things.

Like Dany's storyline in Dance? The one where she is struggling to rule Meereen effectively and deal with numerous suitors and shadow wars....well, that was supposed to happen in the last book of the trilogy. But he kept it and had everything happen in Meereen.

I also am 98% sure that Dany was supposed to invade Westeros first and then be sitting the Iron Throne when Aegon (and then Jon Snow) show up.

And this deadly rivalry between Jon Snow and Tyrion. I think that is being kept but instead of Arya being caught in the middle, it's Daenerys. I think Dany and Jon will fall in love, Tyrion will go mad with jealousy, pit the two against each other and something disastrously unexpected happens and all three die.

Dany is also a lot less magical in the original trilogy.

Another one of the drastic, huge changes is that Sansa and Jaime. @YeniAy_Ottoman outlined it beautifully but I disagree with one thing. You said that Sansa's problem is that she doesn't know who to trust. I disagree: Sansa's problem is that:

1. she doesn't know when to speak and when to be silent
2. and when she speaks, she doesn't know whether to tell the truth or tell a lie

Her arc can actually be viewed as an extension or a foil to Ned's. Sansa is 100% Ned's daughter because Ned also had the same problem of not knowing when to tell the truth, when to lie and when to just shut up. Sansa is both better and luckier than Ned but she's not that good and her luck will run out if she's not careful.

But yeah: Sansa is a major gamechanger. @Nathan Stark I understand why people don't think she is that important. Her story arc is the most realistic and the least flashy (an anathema in a fantasy) which is why nobody really cares. And to their credit, she seems to be something of a minor character in the original trilogy (and the first book). She would've died with Joffrey and the other Lannisters or she would've been spared and forcibly married to Jaime Lannister. Her first POV takes a while to happen. She's become much much more important since then. And the original Jaime strikes me as a male Cersei....which probably eventually led to Jaime and Cersei being twins (the whole "good twin/evil twin" trope) and Cersei becoming a main character in her own right.

Tyrion is a lot more villainous in the version we have now. I see shades of the original Jaime in him.

It seems like the only major players in Westeros were going to be the Starks, the Lannisters and maybe the Baratheons. Stannis has always the plan but there's no mention of Renly.

The Red Wedding as it were doesn't exist as Robb is said to die in battle. Maybe the Freys, the Westerlings and the Boltons were always going to betray Robb but maybe Robb was able to go out swinging.

Arya doesn't seem to have ever left Westeros and got all the training she needed from Syrio Forel. But Arya seems to be closely tied with Bran and the 3EC. I think some of that has been kept as Arya is the second most powerful Stark skinchanger and is currently locked in with a death-worshipping cult of assassins and spies.

18 hours ago, Egged said:

Just realized, her being a little bird who sings or be made to sing can be interpreted as not only a bird which sings even if caged, but also of one spilling secrets. A singing bird is a common analogy for traitors, and Varys has his "little birds". So Sansa = traitor.

Nope. A singing bird is not a common analogy for traitors.

It's a common analogy for a spy or a snitch.

[BlackLightning]

10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa is feeling very safe and secure in the Vale right now which should be a huge flashing sign that things are about to go to shit. She is trusting Littlefinger too much and this will probably involve another "lesson" for her. Also, since GRRM says that this is a series of books where the main heroine can be raped I think LF will try an attempted assault. He's been drinking a lot and getting more and more "handsy." There was also the line dropped by Miranda about Jon's promotion. Which seems like something very out-of-the-blue, and seems like a set up. She explicitly thinks Jon is the only family member left to her, and that he's in command of the Wall. So an assault from Littlefinger --> flees to the Wall. Just as Sansa is being set up to re-take Winterfell in the Harry plot, Stannis is trying to get Jon to usurp her. Jon declines because he says WF belongs to Sansa. So Jon and Sansa are both prime candidates for ruling the North, and both are undergoing leadership arcs (YES Sansa is in a leadership arc believe it or not). You will probably disagree since I detect some Arya/Sansa jealousy, which is always the way this goes. Any advancement in Sansa's plot is seen as taking away from Arya's.

That part. Sansa is in a leadership arc (like Jon and Dany).

While Jon and Dany are positioned as different types of wartime kings and queens (Dany=warrior queen, Jon=realpolitik king), Sansa is different in that because she is being positioned to lead from behind the scenes.

I like to think endgame Sansa as a noble version of Littlefinger, a more direct version of Varys and/or a Catelyn that people will actually listen to.

 

I'm not sure that Sansa is going to flee to the Wall. If she does, she won't make it there. But I think news of Jon Snow's assassination (which will coincide with whatever madness is going to happen in the Vale) is going to light a fire under Sansa and make her take matters into her own hands. But good luck to her because I think that every single named character in the Vale (except for Yohn Royce, Mya Stone, Anya Waynwood and Sweetrobin) is bad news.

But one thing that I'm almost sure the show got right is that Sansa, Rickon and Jon will be the first of the Starks to reunite in person. And I say "in-person," because I'm sure Bran will start communicating with Arya, Jon, Rickon and Sansa one way or another.

While I do think that Sansa will marry an Arryn (it's a toss-up between Sweetrobin and Harry tbh) and end up in Winterfell in time for A Dream of Spring, I am beginning to subscribe to the theory that Sansa will go to King's Landing and make the acquaintance of Aegon, Arianne, JonCon, Varys, etc. before Dany shows up.

[Rose of Red Lake]

18 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But I think news of Jon Snow's assassination (which will coincide with whatever madness is going to happen in the Vale) is going to light a fire under Sansa and make her take matters into her own hands

I dont think the news will make it that far. GRRM said cliffhangers from Book 5 will be resolved quickly in Winds. If he is resurrected quickly, they wont even realize he died.

[Castellan]

I liked the OP, I have not seen detail about his outline before.

If Sansa's fate was to stick to her husband and child once the Starks were in rebellion, having essentially lost her soul or at least her northern identity when Lady died, maybe she will do this now at a later point in the plot, i.e. we do not know how far she has started to identify with Littlefinger's outlook and aims, but perhaps this is the side she goes over to. Before, she was very much a hostage on her guard and wanting her family, now she seems to be growing up in Littlefinger's captivity and losing that outlook.

Part of the earlier plot continues in the way she told Cersei of Ned's plans to flee and, obviously, bitterly regretted it.

 

[Springwatch]

On 3/5/2021 at 6:54 PM, BlackLightning said:

And this deadly rivalry between Jon Snow and Tyrion. I think that is being kept but instead of Arya being caught in the middle, it's Daenerys. I think Dany and Jon will fall in love, Tyrion will go mad with jealousy, pit the two against each other and something disastrously unexpected happens and all three die.

Yeah, something like this. Not the outline changing, but different characters taking the role.

On 3/5/2021 at 6:54 PM, BlackLightning said:

Another one of the drastic, huge changes is that Sansa and Jaime. @YeniAy_Ottoman outlined it beautifully but I disagree with one thing. You said that Sansa's problem is that she doesn't know who to trust. I disagree: Sansa's problem is that:

1. she doesn't know when to speak and when to be silent
2. and when she speaks, she doesn't know whether to tell the truth or tell a lie

Her arc can actually be viewed as an extension or a foil to Ned's. Sansa is 100% Ned's daughter because Ned also had the same problem of not knowing when to tell the truth, when to lie and when to just shut up. Sansa is both better and luckier than Ned but she's not that good and her luck will run out if she's not careful.

Sansa's problem is that she started from a very a naive point, and that she's a beginner at the game - seeing past appearances, saying the right thing, at the right time, to the right person. On the positive side, it's already her habit (from age 3!) to try to charm and persuade, so she's not starting from zero.

On 3/5/2021 at 6:54 PM, BlackLightning said:

[...]

Nope. A singing bird is not a common analogy for traitors.

It's a common analogy for a spy or a snitch.

To me, it's someone who tells the truth to a questioner. Good or bad depends on the perspective.

1 hour ago, Castellan said:

I liked the OP, I have not seen detail about his outline before.

If Sansa's fate was to stick to her husband and child once the Starks were in rebellion, having essentially lost her soul or at least her northern identity when Lady died, maybe she will do this now at a later point in the plot, i.e. we do not know how far she has started to identify with Littlefinger's outlook and aims, but perhaps this is the side she goes over to. Before, she was very much a hostage on her guard and wanting her family, now she seems to be growing up in Littlefinger's captivity and losing that outlook.

True, but I don't think it will happen. Alayne/Sansa is the same issue as Reek/Theon - forgetting your true name/identity. If Theon can come back, so can Sansa.

1 hour ago, Castellan said:

Part of the earlier plot continues in the way she told Cersei of Ned's plans to flee and, obviously, bitterly regretted it.

My pet bugbear. Ned didn't plan to flee, he was staying; Sansa didn't know Ned's plans; Ned's plans changed in the middle of the night; LF and Cersei knew basically everything; nothing Sansa could say would make a jot of difference; the time scale was impossibly short anyway.

Her totally blind love and trust in Joff and Cersei is enough reason for bitter regrets.