WandaVision 3: Here Be Magic (Spoilers)

[john]

I’m with Gordo here. Stark’s an arms dealer, dozens of vigilante killings on foreign soil, enslaved a sentient being. Banner wrecking cities left and right. Cap harbouring a terrorist, spends the majority of his superhero career as a wanted criminal. Thor unleashed an alien invasion. Clint and Nat literally black ops assassins. Lang’s a criminal, all his mentors are criminals.

Bit of involuntary and entirely accidental forced suburbia seems minor in comparison.

[mormont]

11 hours ago, Werthead said:

Interesting that the Darkhold has a totally different design to when it appeared in Agents of SHIELD, confirming (?) that AoS is not canon to the mainline MCU.

That boat sailed long ago: even AoS itself stopped pretending. It's still pretty fun and stuffed full of the kind of Marvel nonsense I love, but the idea that it's taking place in the (main) MCU doesn't really work after season 2. They have different Inhumans, different Kree, and I guess now a different Darkhold.

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Also, I wasn’t sure why Wanda couldn’t make a house sized reality. Leave the family there while she went off to try and figure out a permanent solution?

Leaving this in the middle of a town full of folks traumatised by being trapped in the bigger version? Not a solution I think is going to work.

No. Wanda realised that she had to move on. Now, whether she's moved on to something just as bad is something we'll presumably find out.

Overall, just want to say, loved it as a finale, loved the whole series. I'd like to have seen Monica do a little more, maybe, but apparently we'll get the chance, probably in Captain Marvel 2. Here's hoping she shows off her full powers. Speaking of which, I felt the double Vision/Vision vs 'cataract' (white, obscuring Vision...) fight was a good showcase of how big a powerhouse the Vision is. Where did White Vision go? I look forward to finding out.

I was wrong about a lot of stuff but I loved it just the same.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

Which he didn’t do.

I don't understand.  Are you saying Monica isn't a person?

2 hours ago, Karlbear said:

Not if you're a cop

Heck, not being flippant, he's shooting at three people who just assaulted and stopped his team from attempting to stop a terrorist. I'm not sure any court would hold him particularly culpable for that. 

Considering Monica (and Woo, for that matter) are overseeing the aftermath, she's just as much of a "cop" as he is.  That usually doesn't go over so well.  I mean, if you wanna turn this into LEOs + shady clandestine government agents get away with everything, then yeah, no such bad guy should be arrested for anything ever.

4 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Oh whoops. I.titally forgot about him. We can always count on love and thunder to resurrect him, but I really hope not. Death needs to be permanent.

I was just being a smartass.  It's quite fair to say Heimdall isn't as much as a featured character as the other three.  I don't expect him to be resurrected, for that reason.

[Werthead]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

I was just being a smartass.  It's quite fair to say Heimdall isn't as much as a featured character as the other three.  I don't expect him to be resurrected, for that reason.

I get the impression Idris Elba was not enamoured of the process in making the films (at least the first two), so wasn't that fussed about being killed off either. It makes you wonder if he'd been a bigger deal when they first cast him, they'd have given him a more significant role.

[sifth]

7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I get the impression Idris Elba was not enamoured of the process in making the films (at least the first two), so wasn't that fussed about being killed off either. It makes you wonder if he'd been a bigger deal when they first cast him, they'd have given him a more significant role.

I feel bad for the guy. The guy is a leading man, who sadly usually gets cast in supporting roles. Part of me is happy DC picked him up.

[Werthead]

24 minutes ago, sifth said:

I feel bad for the guy. The guy is a leading man, who sadly usually gets cast in supporting roles. Part of me is happy DC picked him up.

He probably should have held out for a lead role like Luke Cage (though he might have been on the older side of things by the time they got there). Heimdall - at best a supporting character who was kind of motionless and emotionless - was a weird choice to accept.

I would say in 2011 that Elba was still something of a cult figure and director's favourite (The Wire's tremendous acclaim never being matched by commercial success), but not a guaranteed star who could make bank. Arguably he still isn't, at least in film.

[Ghostlydragon]

31 minutes ago, sifth said:

I feel bad for the guy. The guy is a leading man, who sadly usually gets cast in supporting roles. Part of me is happy DC picked him up.

Yeah he's a great actor but it probably is the last we will see of him.

Perhaps he will get the honour of staying dead, while Loki, Gamora and now Vision found a way around it.

I'm really not happy. And I understand why they would want to bring someone back who will feel completely different to the person they were by Infinity War and it is a good idea but doing it for two characters is too much. One would have been a good experiment e.g. Loki with none of his character development or Gamora who has no feelings towards Quill but two is excessive. And now that Vision is back with all of his memories, it will be a bit like if he never died. It also makes Thanos' sacrifice and slaughter meaningless too if people can just come back.

But it will be interesting if Wanda meets White Vision one day and a relationship is formed, although I have a feeling she won't view him as the same person. I remember a similar thing happening in the show Once Upon a Time.

[ithanos]

As TV fare goes I quite enjoyed that finale. Vis-à-Vis was the best. Internet theories magically go poof. The blazing torch I once held for a Mephisto reveal reduced to a memory of a matchstick burn on my fingertips - though I have beacons ready to be lit if it turns out someone is guiding Scarlet Witch's exploration of the Darkhold.     

The understanding of Wanda's plight to deal with her grief was well presented but when the hex is gone and she returns to the town centre without even looking at the town folk and only addressing Monica who was only briefly hexed, I lost all sympathy for her then. Not sure if that was the show makers' intentions.

The absence of Strange was well.. strange, but Agatha did mention that the Scarlet Witch is more powerful than the Sorcerer Supreme so any knowing Sorcerer Supreme wouldn't have jumped right in like Agatha did looking for a power grab but perhaps worked by injecting an agent like Jimmy Woo to game an outcome.   

Last thought, I hope White Vision goes to visit where he last died so we get WakandaVision.

 

[john]

31 minutes ago, ithanos said:

 The understanding of Wanda's plight to deal with her grief was well presented but when the hex is gone and she returns to the town centre without even looking at the town folk and only addressing Monica who was only briefly hexed, I lost all sympathy for her then. Not sure if that was the show makers' intentions.

She was ashamed. It was a bit childish maybe but a normal reaction. She had her hood up too, so I’m sure they wanted you to notice. I doubt they meant you to lose all sympathy though.

Personally, I lost most of my sympathy in the Halloween episode when it shows you all the folk out on the edges of town just standing staring at nothing in the dark. Unless she’s nourishing them with magic (which is entirely possible I suppose) that’s definitely doing them ongoing physical harm.

I did regain most of the sympathy when we found out how it all came about though. Seemed largely subconscious to me. I don’t think we know enough about the mechanics of the situation to assess the level of trauma involved, particularly how often or how much they are aware of what’s going on. The two things we hear in this episode are that Dottie couldn’t see her child, which is tough, yeah, but not that bad. And that they dream her nightmares, which doesn’t sound that bad either. How long did it go on for? Like a week? It’s not exactly Abu Ghraib.

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

That boat sailed long ago: even AoS itself stopped pretending. It's still pretty fun and stuffed full of the kind of Marvel nonsense I love, but the idea that it's taking place in the (main) MCU doesn't really work after season 2. They have different Inhumans, different Kree, and I guess now a different Darkhold.

Maybe the Darkhold has just been recast?

I agree it's fairly low down the list of canon problems with AoS, Thanos' snap seemingly not happening in AoS is much more fundamental.

52 minutes ago, john said:

I did regain most of the sympathy when we found out how it all came about though. Seemed largely subconscious to me. I don’t think we know enough about the mechanics of the situation to assess the level of trauma involved, particularly how often or how much they are aware of what’s going on. The two things we hear in this episode are that Dottie couldn’t see her child, which is tough, yeah, but not that bad. And that they dream her nightmares, which doesn’t sound that bad either. How long did it go on for? Like a week? It’s not exactly Abu Ghraib.

I feel that having your free will taken away could be traumatic even if you just end up living a cliched small town life.

[john]

18 minutes ago, williamjm said:

I feel that having your free will taken away could be traumatic even if you just end up living a cliched small town life.

We don’t know how much they lack free will either. They have to play their role but maybe they can play it how they like. Sometimes they’re consciously trying to please Wanda, other times they seem perfectly happy in their made up persona until Vision glitched them out for a moment. I mean, if they’re constantly screaming inside their own heads that is pretty bad it’s true.

[DMC]

44 minutes ago, john said:

I mean, if they’re constantly screaming inside their own heads that is pretty bad it’s true.

If Kitty Forman would rather die, I think it's safe to say it's pretty bad.

[karaddin]

5 hours ago, Liffguard said:

Also not a fan of how they just glossed over Agatha's final fate. It's already been established that when Wanda forces people to play a roll it causes them pain. Just gonna put the bad guy under mind-control torture and not even question it?

Yeah I came back to comment on this, imprisonment is one thing but overwriting her mind is a removal of self, it's not a proportional punishment and it's not moral, but the show framed it as fitting the crime.

[Jaxom 1974]

4 hours ago, mormont said:

 

I was wrong about a lot of stuff but I loved it just the same.

Same. 

Accepting the philosophical discussion being had, it was still a rather strong finish. 

I'm a tad disappointed that they opened doors for the multiverse of madness, but then backed away...particularly where Pietro was concerned...

Loved the Skrull cameo. But it felt like this was the only set up for any future projects...

 

[felice]

2 hours ago, Mr Gordo said:

Edit: still want to know what's up with those last two comericals

The shark was Agatha; she wants to eat yo' magic. The last one is presumably a hint at things yet to come.

[Rhom]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yeah I came back to comment on this, imprisonment is one thing but overwriting her mind is a removal of self, it's not a proportional punishment and it's not moral, but the show framed it as fitting the crime.

I mean... the bitch killed Sparky...

[Sharpes]

Surely there's something of the billboard Agatha was standing behind selling cleaner with the tagline "all natural formula using the power of mother earth"

When Dottie and other Westview residents spoke to Wanda were they under Agatha's control or did they have a moment of free will? (Wanda did ask this question and Agatha replied "she's your meat puppet. I just cut her strings." but she could also have been lying). It seemed odd to me that everyone around her were bombarding her with questions instead of running away. We did see Agatha mind control others like Herb when he was cutting the fence (and Ralph of course).

Agatha says that the Scarlet Witch is destined to destroy the world? Does she mean Earth? I guess in a way she did destroy the Westview world, her own creation made manifest out of her grief and memories.

Why weren't the SWORD guys affected when they entered Westview to apprehend Wanda? We didn't see anyone running past those trucks to get away so the hex bubble thing is still controlling everyone inside.

Will the rest of the Westview residents exhibit powers? If that's not the case, why is Monica so special? Or does it only affect those who pass through and out of Westview? And what of the Beekeeper guy?

[DaveSumm]

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yeah I came back to comment on this, imprisonment is one thing but overwriting her mind is a removal of self, it's not a proportional punishment and it's not moral, but the show framed it as fitting the crime.

Maybe I’m forgetting some stuff here, but I’m actually now struggling to come up with what her crime was... So, she came across Wanda’s sitcom fantasy and made herself at home. She played along in order to figure out what this magic was, then when she found out it was chaos magic, she tried to steal it. Bad, maybe, but I don’t know that there’s any crimes on the books for it. She kidnapped some kids who don’t really exist. She killed a dog who doesn’t really exist. She accosted Ralph for her own purposes, but he would’ve been playing a different role if she hadn’t. 

I must be forgetting something? If her motive hadn’t been selfish, and she’d just believed (correctly?) that Wanda can’t be trusted with chaos magic, she’d be the hero in this. If you asked one of the residents if they wanted her to succeed, they’d say “fuck yes, please please take her magic from her”. 

So yea, trapping her forever in the role of Agnes seems ... cruel. If she’d shown some ambition to do other evil things (which apparently she hasn’t really been doing for a few centuries, or at least not to the extend she’s on anyone’s radar) you could argue they have no choice, but ... what is it that needs preventing? Wanda beat her, she’s embraced the SW. She could beat her again.

[felice]

1 hour ago, Sharpes said:

Why weren't the SWORD guys affected when they entered Westview to apprehend Wanda? We didn't see anyone running past those trucks to get away so the hex bubble thing is still controlling everyone inside.

Wanda had opened up gaps in the Hex at that point, so they were able to enter without passing through the barrier. People were running for the exits, but given the size of the Hex, it would take them a while to get there.

1 hour ago, Sharpes said:

Will the rest of the Westview residents exhibit powers? If that's not the case, why is Monica so special? Or does it only affect those who pass through and out of Westview?

Monica went through the Hex barrier three times - I don't think anyone else did it more than once? She was warned that it was already affecting her after the second crossing.

[karaddin]

@DaveSumm Yeah even with the selfish motive of stealing the power she can still make the argument that preventing the manifestation of the SW is working in the interests of the world, I don't see any US laws she's actually breaking so maybe they can't put her in prison but that's hardly an argument for even worse extrajudicial punishment. I guess from start to finish the show is clear it doesn't view that overridding of will/personhood as quite as evil as I do, its hardly the first story to differ from me in this way

34 minutes ago, felice said:

Monica went through the Hex barrier three times - I don't think anyone else did it more than once? She was warned that it was already affecting her after the second crossing.

I saw the argument made that the sequence depicting her 3rd crossing suggested that it wasn't just chance mutation but an act of will to transform herself in a way that would allow her through the barrier, and would make her more like her absent (and not acknowledged by the MCU) mom her mom's "friend" and parent figure that she clearly misses and somewhat resents in exactly the way you would a parent figure that had left you behind. She does hear Carol's voice as she's doing it too.