WandaVision 3: Here Be Magic (Spoilers)

[Luzifer's right hand]

19 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Oh whoops. I.titally forgot about him. We can always count on love and thunder to resurrect him, but I really hope not. Death needs to be permanent.

A robot gets repaired, rebooted and gets  full access to the files in his memory.

I think Vision coming back would be completly unproplematic in most settings even if said setting was not based on comics where death is often not permanent. 

I mean that is a bit like complaining about a CPR scene. That is what you do what a broken piece of hardware that you can't replace. You try to repair it... 

[john]

I was a bit taken aback by the Agatha ending too. Does Wanda expect her to continue living in Westview as a nosy neighbour? She doesn’t have a house or a job. She’s probably going to prison (although possibly only for a few years given she did no actual harm) so Wanda basically created an innocent person to send to prison.

As for whether it’s proportional, we don’t have much of a metric to decide that either. What’s the punishment for an undead witch presumably siphoning off life force for centuries? Maybe Wanda did her a favour. Although I think it’s supposed to be cruel because she’s cruel now.

Also white Vision had a weird ending, I assumed at one point he would kill himself since his protocol was to kill the vision. I’m not sure what the difference is between a synthetic being with all the memories of a person and a being with all the same memories but made of Wanda’s love but the show seems to think there is one.

[Luzifer's right hand]

31 minutes ago, john said:

I was a bit taken aback by the Agatha ending too. Does Wanda expect her to continue living in Westview as a nosy neighbour? She doesn’t have a house or a job. She’s probably going to prison (although possibly only for a few years given she did no actual harm) so Wanda basically created an innocent person to send to prison.

As for whether it’s proportional, we don’t have much of a metric to decide that either. What’s the punishment for an undead witch presumably siphoning off life force for centuries? Maybe Wanda did her a favour. Although I think it’s supposed to be cruel because she’s cruel now.

Also white Vision had a weird ending, I assumed at one point he would kill himself since his protocol was to kill the vision. I’m not sure what the difference is between a synthetic being with all the memories of a person and a being with all the same memories but made of Wanda’s love but the show seems to think there is one.

Maybe Vision lacks a "soul" because he has no mind stone(not even the piece in Wanda) . 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, john said:

I was a bit taken aback by the Agatha ending too. Does Wanda expect her to continue living in Westview as a nosy neighbour? She doesn’t have a house or a job. She’s probably going to prison (although possibly only for a few years given she did no actual harm) so Wanda basically created an innocent person to send to prison.

Yeah there were a plethora of holes/dangling threads but when Wanda says she's going to make Agatha into the nosy neighbor I was like "to whom?!?"  Hell, wouldn't that in and of itself be a bit of light torture to such "neighbors?"  I mean, I would never find Kathryn Hahn exasperatingly annoying, but that is the archetype.  I don't suspect most of the outstanding questions to be addressed, but this one is going to be pretty glaring if Agatha returns in the future.  Which hopefully she does as, as mentioned upthread, a Hannibal Lecter-type advisor - or even somewhat like a Loki to Wanda's Thor.

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

I guess from start to finish the show is clear it doesn't view that overridding of will/personhood as quite as evil as I do, its hardly the first story to differ from me in this way

While it still would be this, I do want to emphasize that we shouldn't assume Wanda is torturing Agatha in the same way she did to the Westview residents.  After all, the show bangs us over the head with the fact the latter was not intentional, while the former obviously is.  Who's to say Wanda didn't render Agatha's consciousness into something as benign as, say, putting her into a coma?  Clearly Wanda is a fast learner considering her use of that silly rune rule as her coup de grace in her witch battle.  Plus, the Westview residents said they were basically sharing in Wanda's grief/nightmares, and presumably that's somewhat resolved considering the closure of the finale.  Hell, for all we know she could have put her in some type of ecstatic soma dream state.  Not that she would, just saying.

[Jaxom 1974]

10 hours ago, Mr Gordo said:

lol, those bastards at marvel knew what they were doing

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/03/wandavision-emma-caulfield-interview-dottie-who-is-sarah-proctor?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=onsite-share&utm_brand=vanity-fair&utm_social-type=earned

 

Also yeah, 1/2 of people are PIIIISSSEEED about the Quicksilver thing.

Edit: still want to know what's up with those last two comericals

I actually have zero problems with Emma Caufield being used as a red herring. Especially as there seems to have been a tiny thread of story to go off of in the future based on who she really might have been, if a creative team wanted to pull on that thread...

The more I think about it though, the Pietro stuff is a whiff.  To not pull the multiverse trigger, or at least give some heavy indication of it, by using that particular actor...that's a shame.  I get that using the original Pietro might not have made as much sense if it was only going to be Ralph, but then just use another name actor in a Caufield style bluff...

 

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

@DaveSumm Yeah even with the selfish motive of stealing the power she can still make the argument that preventing the manifestation of the SW is working in the interests of the world, I don't see any US laws she's actually breaking so maybe they can't put her in prison but that's hardly an argument for even worse extrajudicial punishment. I guess from start to finish the show is clear it doesn't view that overridding of will/personhood as quite as evil as I do, its hardly the first story to differ from me in this way

I do not wish to get dragged into the philosophical debate over the ethics of Wanda's actions, as I'm not prone to defending them on a macro scale at this time...however, minor point on Agatha and preventing the Scarlet Witch from becoming a thing...at the moment, we only have Agatha's word that the Scarlet Witch is meant to be a destroyer, that she's more powerful than the Sorcerer Supreme...does this word justify what Wanda does to her? No. Probably not.  But we also don't know if the Scarlet Witch is truly bad...hope that makes sense...

[Argonath Diver]

Having a couple complete red herrings was my second favorite part of the show (behind Bethany's strong moments). 

My huge Marvel fan buddy and I (more along for the MCU ride than a devout fan) spent an extended humorous messaging chain asking each other all the wildly dumb questions about the last two eps. We got a couple dozen in.

How did Jimmy pocket the buzzing cell info his back pocket while a solder was directly behind him, on screen, looking right at him? Etc.

I put this solidly into a More Expensive Arrowverse show with Bettany and Olsen's strong performances saving it from couple dreck territory. 

[Heartofice]

I think it's actually fantastic that we get to have tv like this actually, it's far more than I would have ever expected had you had suggested it to me a decade ago. This is Marvel superhero TV that takes 'some' chances and tries to at least challenge the viewer a little bit, and doesn't just throw things at us expecting we'll lap up any old crap. I mean, it's not the CW.

Postives:

• Wanda's mental struggles and the entire emotional heart of the show is actually pretty strong on the whole. The central idea that she has felt such loss and grief that she does all these things to allow her to feel something is, I thought, quite affecting. The series strongest moments where it showed us her connection to Vision, and they both gave great performances
• The sitcom idea is brave, I have to admit it. Those first few episodes, especially the first 2, were a struggle to watch because there was almost nothing there except an homage to old tv. I didn't see where it was going and wasn't sure I had the patience to find out. Those episodes were immaculately observed and well done as well

Negatives

• The show, like almost all Marvel properties, really struggles to break free from the constraints placed upon it. So many Marvel movies have elements that are brave or different but eventually have to revert to type and follow the tried and tested formula. I always find it really boring when that happens, and I did lose interest in the show once Agatha was revealled, as well as mainly being quite bored by all the SWORD stuff. I get that there is a younger audience for this show and so there needs to be shooty shooty stuff and big set pieces, but they weren't really for me
• Agatha was a real dud. Easily the worst aspect of the show in so many ways. The reveal that it was her all along pretty much shot dead any idea that the show was a link to other big stories. More than anything though, the character just feels so out of place. The performance is so odd and non menacing, like she never came out of being a sitcom character. I didn't like it at all, maybe it would have been better to not have a big bad in the show at all
• There seems to be a lot of glee going around that the show trolled the internet fanboys. That's fair, but also the show went out of it's way to project itself as one type of thing, and never lived up to it. There appears to be a mystery about what is going on from the first minute, but the actual truth is basically what everyone assumed before even watching the trailer. So there was nothing actually going on underneath the surface, it was all completely straightforward. I think the emotional impact of the show would be greater if they had just focused on that, rather than doing things to fake out the internet.
• Fake Pietro is really going to annoy me now. I mean what a con! It doesn't make any sense to tease a crossover and then just have it be an in-joke. I mean why bother? Who thought it was a good idea? I loved his performance in the show but now I feel pretty cheated. 

 

Overall it was a good show, but not a great one. Maybe we won't ever get anything great because there will always be a brake on creativity from Disney / Marvel here. 

[karaddin]

@DMC I'm still not a fan of turning off someone's consciousness, a zero suffering coma with an autopilot personality looking after the body to defuse someone you see as genuinely dangerous is more morally complex though, I'll give you that. It certainly wasn't my interpretation though, as I read Wanda's delivery of what the prison would be implied that Agatha would be aware and trapped inside, and that the insipid persona was meant to be an additional punishment on top of the imprisonment.

To counter balance the fact that I've mostly posted about the negatives I did enjoy how they finished it off. I was really pleased to see that Wanda's dissociative response to grief and yet another major trauma (girl is absolutely going to have Complex PTSD) was both the emotional backbone of the story and the primary narrative arc. Personally I'd have hated to see some big comic reveal like the speculated Mephisto as having been manipulating her as it would have cheapened the impact of that grief.

I don't want it to be a heel turn for her though, what we had here was ok with her being forced to confront what she was doing was wrong, but it wasn't a conscious turn into villainhood and she's already turned her back on this and her created family. So not loving that second post credit scene.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, karaddin said:

@DMC I'm still not a fan of turning off someone's consciousness

Right me neither, and you're right that at least Agatha seemed to think it was going to be some type of additional punishment beyond imprisonment, just wanted to point out we don't really know exactly what Wanda did to her.  And I would think it'd be at least somewhat different than what she did to the Westview residents - considering that was a subconscious manifestation of her grief.

[Sharpes]

1 hour ago, felice said:

Wanda had opened up gaps in the Hex at that point, so they were able to enter without passing through the barrier. People were running for the exits, but given the size of the Hex, it would take them a while to get there.

Monica went through the Hex barrier three times - I don't think anyone else did it more than once? She was warned that it was already affecting her after the second crossing.

What about the people Vision saw that weren't actively part of the storyline, the ones held in some kind of stasis at the edge of the town? I think a day or two has passed since that scene so it is possible Wanda pulled everyone into the centre of town prior to the Agatha v. Scarlet fight I suppose.

Ah yeah that's three times, good point. Yeah the beekeeper guy went through the barrier and was kicked out by Wanda. After that we never hear of him again.

[RumHam]

9 hours ago, Mr Gordo said:

Also with all the multiverse theories now shot down I’m wondering how many of those spider rumors are fake. I think I mentioned that already.

We're still getting a movie called Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. Plus at least some of the Foxx/Maguire/Garfield/Molina casting news has been reported by trades like Variety and The Hollywood Reporter, not just random youtubers. 

Also one of the alternate titles for the next Spider-man was apparently "Homeworlds" 

Also Mew Mew is back for Thor 4 so Jane can wield it. That probably involves some kinda multiverse stuff. Unless they glued the broken one back together. 

Whatever happens to "break" the multiverse and bring on the madness has not yet occurred, is al.

My first thought at the final scene where there are two Wandas and one is reading the Darhold was that Wanda teamed up with another Wanda from another world. But then I saw people saying she was just astral projecting which probably makes a lot more sense. 

Edit: it's interesting I just read a tweet from someone working on Doctor Strange 2 talking about the secrecy and how they have to turn in their phones so they can't take pictures. Meanwhile on the set of Thor 4 people have filmed and posted multiple videos of what they're filming.

Most notably Sam Neil, Matt Damon and that other Helmsworth putting on another play, now joined my Melissa McCarthy as an actress playing Hela. 

[sifth]

Monica really got shafted in these final two episodes. Like the moment she gets her powers, it felt like the writers stopped caring about the character. I also find it funny that she kept the whole "you're really a good person Wanda" thing going, when all I could think of in my head was, "you don't even really know her, the only time you ever spent with her was when she turned you into a meat puppet". They really should have had the characters actually be friends or something before Wanda got her powers, because logically Monica's connection to Wanda doesn't make sense to me.

So for the second time now, the MCU has trolled us when it comes to the multiverse. At least the lie made more sense with Mastero though, since that guys whole stick is basically lying to people, even in the comics; with this though, we actually had real magic at play, so there was no excuse.

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

Monica really got shafted in these final two episodes. Like the moment she gets her powers, it felt like the writers stopped caring about the character. I also find it funny that she kept the whole "you're really a good person Wanda" thing going, when all I could think of in my head was, "you don't even really know her, the only time you ever spent with her was when she turned you into a meat puppet". They really should have had the characters actually be friends or something before Wanda got her powers, because logically Monica's connection to Wanda doesn't make sense to me.

So for the second time now, the MCU has trolled us when it comes to the multiverse. At least the lie made more sense with Mastero though, since that guys whole stick is basically lying to people, even in the comics; with this though, we actually had real magic at play, so there was no excuse.

I don’t really get why Monica is in this show to be honest, she really just feels like a tool for the writers to push certain story elements forwards. Her evolution and powers seem completely inconsequential to this series and I guess she was really introduced to advance other shows and movies. 

[briantw]

On the whole, I enjoyed that, but the worst part was how it basically turned into a big, dumb movie at the end.  I think they also dropped the ball by not having a final twist or a major character appearance.  The show seemed to be building up to something like that and then....nope, it was Wanda All Along.  

As far as Agatha goes, the show deliberately didn't kill her off, so I have to imagine she'll be back at some point in the near future.  I imagine her as a sort of Loki character where she can flip from good to evil as the situation and story dictate.

[felice]

5 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

How did Jimmy pocket the buzzing cell info his back pocket while a solder was directly behind him, on screen, looking right at him? Etc.

The soldier didn't like what Hayward was doing, so deliberately turned a blind eye?

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'm still not a fan of turning off someone's consciousness, a zero suffering coma with an autopilot personality looking after the body to defuse someone you see as genuinely dangerous is more morally complex though, I'll give you that. It certainly wasn't my interpretation though, as I read Wanda's delivery of what the prison would be implied that Agatha would be aware and trapped inside, and that the insipid persona was meant to be an additional punishment on top of the imprisonment.

I assumed Agatha just hated the idea of becoming Agnes for real, and after the transformation she'd have no access to her real memories or magic; it wouldn't be an autopilot, she'd think she was Agnes. It's a pretty awful thing to do, but I'm not sure what alternatives Wanda has? Agatha has vastly more knowledge and experience than Wanda, so is far too dangerous to just let go when she still wants to steal Wanda's magic, she has no way to physically imprison her, and killing her isn't exactly a morally good option.

The Agnes persona does seem suited to getting a babysitting job in the future...

4 hours ago, Sharpes said:

What about the people Vision saw that weren't actively part of the storyline, the ones held in some kind of stasis at the edge of the town?

Presumably they were free to run for the exits as soon as they opened. We only saw a couple of seconds of trucks entering the Hex, it's not strange that no escaping residents happened to be right there at that specific moment.

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Monica really got shafted in these final two episodes. Like the moment she gets her powers, it felt like the writers stopped caring about the character. I also find it funny that she kept the whole "you're really a good person Wanda" thing going, when all I could think of in my head was, "you don't even really know her, the only time you ever spent with her was when she turned you into a meat puppet".

She did deal with Fietro, so not entirely unimportant. And she was a SWORD agent knowingly going into a weird situation (even if she didn't know exactly how weird), not an ordinary person having their regular lives unexpectedly transformed, she seemed to retain more independence than the townsfolk, and she got close to Wanda in the relatively short time she was inside, even delivering her kids, so it's not surprising that she came out of it more sympathetic to Wanda than most of her victims.

[sifth]

8 minutes ago, felice said:

The soldier didn't like what Hayward was doing, so deliberately turned a blind eye?

I assumed Agatha just hated the idea of becoming Agnes for real, and after the transformation she'd have no access to her real memories or magic; it wouldn't be an autopilot, she'd think she was Agnes. It's a pretty awful thing to do, but I'm not sure what alternatives Wanda has? Agatha has vastly more knowledge and experience than Wanda, so is far too dangerous to just let go when she still wants to steal Wanda's magic, she has no way to physically imprison her, and killing her isn't exactly a morally good option.

The Agnes persona does seem suited to getting a babysitting job in the future...

Presumably they were free to run for the exits as soon as they opened. We only saw a couple of seconds of trucks entering the Hex, it's not strange that no escaping residents happened to be right there at that specific moment.

She did deal with Fietro, so not entirely unimportant. And she was a SWORD agent knowingly going into a weird situation (even if she didn't know exactly how weird), not an ordinary person having their regular lives unexpectedly transformed, she seemed to retain more independence than the townsfolk, and she got close to Wanda in the relatively short time she was inside, even delivering her kids, so it's not surprising that she came out of it more sympathetic to Wanda than most of her victims.

Yea, but she was still turned into a meat puppet and had her freewill violated. I just find it strange is all and wish there was more connecting tissue.

[RumHam]

There was no indication the twins could create things right? They hadn't even developed their powers when they found the dog. I'm inclined to think it was a real neighborhood dog who followed the twins home as they said. Possibly because it's owner was being super weird and not bothering to feed it or something. 

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I don’t really get why Monica is in this show to be honest, she really just feels like a tool for the writers to push certain story elements forwards. Her evolution and powers seem completely inconsequential to this series and I guess she was really introduced to advance other shows and movies. 

I think she was clearly in the show to set up Captain Marvel 2 - and serve as essentially the superhero version of a backdoor pilot depicting her origin story.  I'm perfectly fine with that.  This interview suggests originally another character would serve a more limited version of her role and then Fiege/the powers that be put Monica in instead:

Quote

Monica Rambeau seems poised to be a breakout star of the show, especially after Episode 4. Was Monica always a central part of your initial idea, or were characters like her, Jimmy Woo, and Darcy brought in later to fit into the puzzle pieces?

Jac Shaeffer: There was a character like Monica; she served the purpose of Monica in my pitch. But it was a later discovery that we could use Monica Rambeau for that character. And that was so exciting when we put those pieces together. Jimmy and Darcy were always part of the story.

 

24 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm inclined to think it was a real neighborhood dog who followed the twins home as they said. Possibly because it's owner was being super weird and not bothering to feed it or something. 

Or rather, Agatha arranged for the kids to find the dog (even a regular person could pull that off).  Killing the dog seemed to be a way for her to fuck with Wanda, so it'd make sense that she engineered the entire episode..all along.

[Corvinus85]

On Agatha's punishment, I agree that it's cruel, but Agatha was no hero here. Was Ralph a volunteer helping her? He seemed to be under her spell via the enchanted necklace. We know from the flashback that she dealt with dark magic. Maybe she was a victim of the Darkhold, or maybe she wanted that dark power. Agatha's comment about heroes not torturing people applies to both her and Wanda.

Separately, were the day-night cycles faster within the Hex, or did Wanda purposefully made it night at the end? Maybe so she could say goodbye to the boys by tucking them in bed? But the first 3 sitcom episodes happen within a day, though the Hex was created a few days before that, I think.

[DaveSumm]

8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

On Agatha's punishment, I agree that it's cruel, but Agatha was no hero here. Was Ralph a volunteer helping her? He seemed to be under her spell via the enchanted necklace.

Yea but that’s a lateral move, if she hadn’t done that Ralph would have just been under Wanda’s influence instead.