WandaVision 3: Here Be Magic (Spoilers)

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Yea but that’s a lateral move, if she hadn’t done that Ralph would have just been under Wanda’s influence instead. 

That feels a bit like arguing that it would be morally acceptable to enslave someone if they had already been a slave.

[A True Kaniggit]

So Agatha can grant powers? I doubt Ralph just happened to have super speed. 

[polishgenius]

I just binge-watched most of it so I didn't have all the speculation and sky-high expectations a lot of y'all did, and I have to say, I didn't have an issue with most of what they did. Pietro's casting was fine, a funny nod- maybe I'd be disappointed if I had spent weeks expecting a multiverse reveal, I was fuming at Far From Home, but as it was it was fine. Agatha being the villain, likewise fine. I'd have been more surprised if they had brought in a wider MCU villain or if Dr Strange had showed up.
The way magic works was silly and the big 'splodey battle between them was pretty poor, but storywise it worked for me.

I do have to say though that the first three episodes were a chore for me, and the reason it took me so long to start the rest.


 

On 3/5/2021 at 12:24 PM, Werthead said:

that seems a bit Phoenix Saga-ish, something that has failed to work on-screen twice now. Maybe they can do a better job of it, but still.

To be fair the reason it failed twice is because both times they rushed a story that needs loads of time into one movie. I mean I'm not enamoured of 'Scarlet Witch' as a phoenix-force type figure overall but I don't see why they couldn't make it work for what it is given the right time and setup.

 

21 hours ago, karaddin said:

it's not a proportional punishment and it's not moral, but the show framed it as fitting the crime.

I'm not really sure that it did. There's been some speculation in the topic about whether there is a setup here for SW as a villain - I don't see how else you could read it. She might not immediately break bad in Multiverse of Madness but with that scene I think they were pretty definitely planting the seed that she's got a bad- cruel- side and that it will come out. Especially since they had her go read the Darkhold. Actually I think there's a pretty good chance that they will end up splitting off the personalities entirely, hinted at already with Wanda making herself coffee while Scarlet Witch does the Darkhold stuff.

[SpaceChampion]

So thoughts I've had I haven't seen elsewhere:

1. Wakanda's barrier shield fell in Infinity War, and then Vision died.  On some level maybe Wandra blames herself for not using her powers more adeptly and kept that barrier intact herself.  So when she arrives in Westfield, she unconsciously created a shield to block out the rest of the world and that led to her drawing on her TV sitcom memories to fill the alternate reality inside.
2. The Scarlet Witch isn't prophesied to "end the world", she's "unleashing chaos".   I think it's clear chaos = multiverse.
3. Fake Pietro got his speed powers the same way Real Pietro did.  A witch gave them to him/them.  Wanda gave Pietro speed powers, not Loki's sceptre.  What does speed have to do with Mind anyway?  Maybe a ret-con, or maybe they planned it that way all along.
4. Fake Pietro could not have been from another universe, because Wanda didn't unleash chaos yet.
5. I'm sure Hayward will pop up again in Secret Wars, as a Skrull infiltrator.

 

[karaddin]

@polishgenius I could certainly be misreading the tone of the text at that point if that act is meant to read as villainous, but as evidenced by others in this thread plenty of people did see it as "well what else are you going to do about her". 

I'm wary of turning her into a villain (temporary or not) after an extended series like this focusing on her grief as it's too easy to botch that theme and have it come across as "going through trauma makes you a bad person".

[SpaceChampion]

23 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

Well, I don't think they are going to use Skrulls for Secret Invasion considering they kind of made them the good guys in Captain Marvel(there are a ton of other shape shifters that have infiltrated the comics over the decades they could use) but I agree with Hayward probably showing up again down the line. You wonder if he was so adamant about rebooting Vision because he knows about some threat we don't. I mean he's probably just a one note Marvel villain, but you wonder.

I thought it was clear Talos' group were fugitives, and there are plenty of other Skrull factions scattered throughout the galaxy.

[DMC]

Hayward is a very boring ass character.  I hope we never see him again.  He reminds me of these words of wisdom:  "If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

[Kalbear]

 

[kairparavel]

1 hour ago, Karlbear said:

 

 

[DaveSumm]

7 hours ago, williamjm said:

That feels a bit like arguing that it would be morally acceptable to enslave someone if they had already been a slave.

With the caveat that, by doing so, you could free them all together. Again, it’s really only Agnes’s selfish motive that is the distinction here. Her actions would be largely the same if her goal was just to end the sitcom, which as we saw, is something that the residents would die to see. They’re that miserable. Any one of them would’ve volunteered Ralph’s job if they knew it was working toward ending things.

[mormont]

On the subject of Wanda's morality: folks talk all the time about how much they love morally grey characters and they wish the MCU had more of them. Well, now we have one.

I don't know what Wanda will be doing next - heel turn or redemption arc or both. But I do know that now, when we see her do something good, we'll be thinking of those poor terrified townsfolk asking her if she likes the plotline. And if she does something bad, we'll be thinking of her with Tommy and Billy and Vision telling her grief is love persisting.

ETA - it's worth remembering, by the way (as the series took pains to remind us) that MCU Wanda volunteered to join HYDRA for revenge. Her moral compass has never been her strong suit. I'm not sure why people seem to want her to be this kindly, heroic figure. Maybe it's because she's a mother?

[polishgenius]

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

@polishgenius I could certainly be misreading the tone of the text at that point if that act is meant to read as villainous, but as evidenced by others in this thread plenty of people did see it as "well what else are you going to do about her". 

Yeah clearly if that's what they were going for they needed to make it starker but I just don't see why they'd deliberately have someone point out she's being cruel, along with a prophecy of her evil and threat which doesn't pay off in-series, if they're not gonna come back to that. And, like, regardless of her motive what she did in this series is pretty unambiguously an evil thing to do. Initially unconcsiously, but when she learned the truth she resisted letting it go till confronted right in her face with the damage.

 

 

6 minutes ago, mormont said:

Well, now we have one.

Yeah all in all it's some pretty great development for her.

[john]

I found the choices Wanda made, to the extent that we were aware of them, to be consistently fairly defensible, I’m sure that was the point. She joined Hydra as a child, doesn’t count. Plus she thought they were freedom fighters, hundreds of people joined Hydra including high ranking politicians, there’s lots of ways out of that.

She didn’t respond to Hayward’s needling (well she smashed some glass but that’s small potatoes in a world where people are always solving their problems with their fists) and we got a reminder of how she lay for two days staring at an unexploded Stark bomb (with the retcon that she switched it off herself which makes it even worse) and later forgave Tony Stark. Don’t think I could’ve done that.

4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

And, like, regardless of her motive what she did in this series is pretty unambiguously an evil thing to do. Initially unconcsiously, but when she learned the truth she resisted letting it go till confronted right in her face with the damage.

Well yeah, when else are you going to let it go? She didn’t think she was doing any harm up until that point. I also have to figure there was some element of her being caught up in the spell herself, cause otherwise it makes no fucking sense, who is enjoying playing out roles in sitcoms repeatedly, it was more like a lucid dream than anything. Everybody else in world is going to see her as unambiguously evil but I don’t think the viewer is supposed to.

They seem to be setting up a situation where she’s going to realise her kids are alive in some reality (cause multiverse) and crack it open to get at them, regardless of the ensuing chaos. Still pretty understandable. I’d be happy enough if they were embracing the storytelling of making her an actual villain but I’m not sure they are.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, john said:

She didn’t think she was doing any harm up until that point.

 

There were loads of signs that she was doing damage before then. She just refused to listen or look to find out what the damage was. The moment she ran out to threaten the Sword dude she had clues, Vision talked to her and her response to 'you can't control me like you control them' was to blank it, when he himself preferred to die to get word out rather than be part of it she drew him back in but sulked and blocked him from getting back.


I don't think she is, or meant to be, unambiguously evil, but I don't think her actions in the show are meant to be particularly defensible either.

[john]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

There were loads of signs that she was doing damage before then. She just refused to listen or look to find out what the damage was.

Yeah, she blanked it. That’s not very condemnatory, that’s normal human behaviour. The line from Vision, she wasn’t dismissing it, she was confused by it. I just don’t think anything in here makes her more morally grey than your average avenger.

[polishgenius]

1 minute ago, john said:

That’s not very condemnatory, that’s normal human behaviour.

Yeah but actions matter. Denial is normal human behaviour but denial that you were a bit of a dick to Lucy that one time is a bit different to denying that locking children into their rooms and refusing their parents the ability to hold or see them is bad and maybe you should stop.

 

3 minutes ago, john said:

she wasn’t dismissing it, she was confused by it.

 

Her response was 'can't I?'. That wasn't confused that was a threat.

[RumHam]

Quote

"I’ve been at Marvel too long to say a definite no or yes to anything, in regards to another season of WandaVision," Kevin responded, later adding that season 2 will be "dictated by the story." ... The fun of the MCU is all of the crossover between series and films. Sometimes [a show] will go into a season 2, and sometimes it will go into a movie and then back into a series.

Quote

“Maybe someday, we’ll chart out five seasons of a show,” he concluded. “But we’re focusing on delivering seasons the best we can, one at a time, so far.”

https://tvline.com/2021/02/24/wandavision-season-2-renewed-cancelled-disney-plus/

So it seems like they have no plans to do a second season but it's possible Wanda could end up back on a Disney+ show down the line. 

It's interesting that none of the shows they're working on seemed to be designed to continue on until they become unprofitable.

[john]

42 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah but actions matter. Denial is normal human behaviour but denial that you were a bit of a dick to Lucy that one time is a bit different to denying that locking children into their rooms and refusing their parents the ability to hold or see them is bad and maybe you should stop.

She also at one point claims she couldn’t control (or vanish?) groups of children when Vision is asking about not seeing them on his way to work or something. That’s not normal denial, that’s not understanding what’s going on denial. The point where she finds out about parents not seeing children is when she stopped.

I think we’re seeing different levels of nuance, for me the whole thing is informed by what she says to Agatha, that the difference between them is that what she did was deliberate. I don’t think it’s supposed to be any kind of in depth psychological study. I guess my only issue is the idea that this is new grounds for the MCU. Wanda is a well meaning but hard to control threat, that’s the same as virtually all their heroes.

52 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Her response was 'can't I?'. That wasn't confused that was a threat.

Ok, guess I misremembered that bit. Still, in the heat of an argument, not exactly an admission of ongoing ill intention.

[mormont]

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

There were loads of signs that she was doing damage before then. She just refused to listen or look to find out what the damage was. The moment she ran out to threaten the Sword dude she had clues, Vision talked to her and her response to 'you can't control me like you control them' was to blank it, when he himself preferred to die to get word out rather than be part of it she drew him back in but sulked and blocked him from getting back.

I don't think she is, or meant to be, unambiguously evil, but I don't think her actions in the show are meant to be particularly defensible either.

There's certainly no doubt that Vision was more unambiguously good, heroic and selfless than Wanda in this series - but then again, to a great extent if not wholly Vision appears to have been a creation of Wanda's mind, so what does that tell us about Wanda? Is there an argument that Vision was, all along, Wanda's subconscious conscience manifesting itself?

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, mormont said:

Is there an argument that Vision was, all along, Wanda's subconscious conscience manifesting itself?

Heh, say that ten times fast.  I think that's a compelling argument, yeah.