Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 In all the encounters that are mentioned, directly or indirectly, it involves Others and wights attacking humans. This was not provoked by humans so far as we know. And it's noted in World of Ice and Fire, that the True Tongue, which the children of the forest speak mostly was only learned by a few people. This implies that the language is relatively hard to learn. If it's that hard to learn from a civilization that is not attacking you willy-nilly, imagine how hard it would be to learn a language from something that's trying to kill you. It wouldn't be hard. It would be impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 And at the betrothal and early parts of the marriage, Daenerys was basically used a slave to garner soldiers for the Khal Rhae Mhar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Just now, Jaenara Belarys said: In all the encounters that are mentioned, directly or indirectly, it involves Others and wights attacking humans. This was not provoked by humans so far as we know. And it's noted in World of Ice and Fire, that the True Tongue, which the children of the forest speak mostly was only learned by a few people. This implies that the language is relatively hard to learn. If it's that hard to learn from a civilization that is not attacking you willy-nilly, imagine how hard it would be to learn a language from something that's trying to kill you. It wouldn't be hard. It would be impossible. Counterpoint... mankind invaded Westeros, how is that not an obvious provocation? Even if you believe the language of the Singers is different from that of the Others, it's clear that Men were able to learn their language during the war in order to make a peace. It's not impossible. Quote Regardless, the children of the forest fought as fiercely as the First Men to defend their lives. Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact. Giving up all the lands of Westeros save for the deep forests, the children won from the First Men the promise that they would no longer cut down the weirwoods. All the weirwoods of the isle on which the Pact was forged were then carved with faces so that the gods could witness the Pact, and the order of green men was made afterward to tend to the weirwoods and protect the isle. The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Coming of First Men There is no doubt that learning a language is hard... let alone during a war. But, nobody said anything about the right thing being easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Waiting........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 The white walkers attacked first. We know that from Old Nan's stories, which as you've noted have a tendency to be correct, that the white walkers attacked, overrunning cities, castles and armies. People or creatures that are "nice", if you will, don't attack cities and hunt down women in forests! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 37 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: Nor is defending yourself a solution to the conflict. What solution should've been Ser Waymar thinking of? It wasn't the rangers who seeked a contact with the Others. If we are standing beside the Others in that situation, why didn't they think trough what might happen if they show themselves? Why would they make an appearance, knowing what that provokes? Not to talk about what one can call a solution. Wiping out the Others IS a solution, altough one can argue it's not the right thing to do, and I think that too. Tywin murdering Aegon and Rhaenys was a solution for showing loyalty, clearly not the best one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Just now, Daeron the Daring said: Tywin murdering Aegon and Rhaenys was a solution for showing loyalty, clearly not the best one. I agree with this. Just now, Daeron the Daring said: What solution should've Ser Waymar think of? It wasn't the rangers who seeked a contact with the Others. If we are standing beside the Others in that situation, why didn't they think trough what might happen if they show themselves? Why would they make an appearance, knowing what that provokes? And this is EXACTLY correct. Imagine all the stories Ser Waymar, Will and Gared have heard about white walkers. Do you think that Ser Waymar is thinking that they're going to bake cookies? NO! They killed him, Waymar rose again and killed Will, and we don't know how in seven hells Gared freaking escaped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Just now, Daeron the Daring said: What solution should've Ser Waymar think of? It wasn't the rangers who seeked a contact with the Others. If we are standing beside the Others in that situation, why didn't they think trough what might happen if they show themselves? Why would they make an appearance, knowing what that provokes? “We should start back” is literally the first line of the entire series. It was absolutely Waymar who sought out the Others there, beyond the wall, and challenged one to fight, "Dance with me then". Just now, Daeron the Daring said: Not to talk about what one can call a solution. Wiping out the Others IS a solution, altough one can argue it's not the right thing to do, and I think that too. It is the Tywin solution, which I agree is not moral. Just now, Daeron the Daring said: Tywin murdering Aegon and Rhaenys was a solution for showing loyalty, clearly not the best one. Exactly, I'm not saying it can't be done, or even that there isn't a practical logic to it, I'm saying it was morally wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 If let's say for the sake of conversation, that the white walkers were provoked. Then the attacks are understandable from my opinion, using my stated theory of using necessary force to put down a threat. This doesn't mean you should try to exterminate all humans. Kill the humans who attacked you, not some lady running away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 He said "Dance with me" because the Other had his sword out in the open. I have my copy of A Game of Thrones in my room, do you want me to get it and check? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 And Waymar was not "seeking" out a white walker. He was investigating a wilding raider camp, not white walkers. You know this, don't dance around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 8 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: We should start back” is literally the first line of the entire series. It was absolutely Waymar who sought out the Others there, beyond the wall, and challenged one to fight, "Dance with me then". You, however, did not answer my question. They were looking for raiders, and they eventually found an abandoned wildling camp, with recent human presence? How did they provoke the others then with their presence? What happened to the wildlings? Why would the Other show himself to Ser Waymar if he clearly knows the guy will attack him? That is provocative behaviour, or at least choosing violence over evading an armed conflict. The Other showed up with a weapon, so I'll ask you again: What Ser Waymar should have been doing in that given situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Darnit. I just noticed, I mispelled Belaerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Just now, Daeron the Daring said: You, however, did not answer my question. They were looking for raiders, and they eventually found an abandoned wildling camp, with recent human presence? How did they provoke the others then with their presence? What happened to the wildlings? Why would the Other show himself to Ser Waymar if he clearly knows the guy will attack him? That is provocative behaviour, or at least choosing violence over evading an armed conflict. The other showed up with a weapon, so I'll ask you again: What Ser Waymar should have been doing in that given situation? Prezackly. This is my point. Very good, Prince Daeron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said: If let's say for the sake of conversation, that the white walkers were provoked. Then the attacks are understandable from my opinion, using my stated theory of using necessary force to put down a threat. This doesn't mean you should try to exterminate all humans. Kill the humans who attacked you, not some lady running away. Welcome to war... I'm not sure what your point is. Not only is all of mankind not in Westeros, or originally from Westeros, but at no point did I suggest the Others were acting morally. 2 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: He said "Dance with me" because the Other had his sword out in the open. I have my copy of A Game of Thrones in my room, do you want me to get it and check? After demanding the command, he hunted down the party despite being beyond the wall and everyone from his companion to Craster telling him not to. Quote The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch. The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope. They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence. A Game of Thrones - Prologue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Just now, Mourning Star said: In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. You have just proved our point. The Other's weapon was drawn. In any and all civilizations up to modern times, a drawn weapon is interpreted as hostile intentions. Thank you for your help, good ser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said: You, however, did not answer my question. They were looking for raiders, and they eventually found an abandoned wildling camp, with recent human presence? How did they provoke the others then with their presence? What happened to the wildlings? Why would the Other show himself to Ser Waymar if he clearly knows the guy will attack him? That is provocative behaviour, or at least choosing violence over evading an armed conflict. The Other showed up with a weapon, so I'll ask you again: What Ser Waymar should have been doing in that given situation? He shouldn't have been there at all. He shouldn't have been in command, but demanded it. He shouldn't be hunting people beyond the wall. He should have turned back. Hell, he could have tried to speak to them with more than a challenge. Lots of reasons. And again, I'm not an other whisperer, I do not speak for them, we barely have any idea of what motivates them, but I think it's wild to assume the only answer is obliteration of us or them. And again, and individual interaction isn't the same as a large scale conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Again, drawn weapon. I agree that he was not fit for command, that he was an arrogant turdbird, and that he should've listened to the veteran's, but he did not, in any way SEEK OUT the white walkers. His orders to track down a wilding raider band, maybe kill them and return hence to Castle Black. He was provoked by the white walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: You have just proved our point. The Other's weapon was drawn. In any and all civilizations up to modern times, a drawn weapon is interpreted as hostile intentions. Thank you for your help, good ser. Do they even have sheaths? Do we know what happened with the Wildlings... who the Night's watch themselves were trying to hunt down? You keep leaping to unwarranted conclusions. It was Waymar who showed up, drew his sword and challenged them. Trying to paint the Other as the instigator is wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: He shouldn't be hunting people beyond the wall. This is incorrect. Despite being unfit for command, he was still ordered to go beyond the Wall and hunt the wildings down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpeg.12ed2018b1b8619e85b47fcee9d9c8c9.jpeg)
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.