Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 The wildings were RAIDERS, dammit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Mourning Star said: Do they even have sheaths? I think if they have armor, they can have sheaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said: The wildings were RAIDERS, dammit. As opposed to "ranging" hahaha Just now, Jaenara Belarys said: I think if they have armor, they can have sheaths. But do they? We have no idea what their customs are and yet you leap to them being instigators... despite knowing that Waymar arrived on the seen intent to kill the very wildlings the Others had already killed, unsheathed his sword and challenged him. You leap to unwarranted assumptions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Did we read different books, or did you read it, and ignore it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Just now, Jaenara Belarys said: Did we read different books, or did you read it, and ignore it? You can either try to keep learning or choose willful ignorance, that's up to you. Bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 The only way to deal with WWS is to do what Visenya is doing in my profile picture, minus the ship, plus some wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 *WWs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: The only way to deal with WWS is to do what Visenya is doing in my profile picture, minus the ship, plus some wights. Remember that is an old sentiment long used by people to dehumanize the "other", and I think can safely be categorized as evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Sheridan Comanche Chief Tosawi reputedly told Sheridan in 1869, "Tosawi, good Indian," to which Sheridan supposedly replied, "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead." In Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, Dee Brown attributed the quote to Sheridan, stating that "Lieutenant Charles Nordstrom, who was present, remembered the words and passed them on, until in time they were honed into an American aphorism: The only good Indian is a dead Indian. Sheridan denied he had ever made the statement. Biographer Roy Morris Jr. states that, nevertheless, popular history credits Sheridan with saying "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." This variation "has been used by friends and enemies ever since to characterize and castigate his Indian-fighting career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 The White Walkers are not the Native Americans. The Native Americans had a well developed civilization, which I respect since they're very clever and creative, the white walkers we know nothing about. You could talk to the Native Americans. You cannot talk to the white walkers. The Native Americans attacked settlers since the settlers were effectively breaking and entering, which is understandable. The white walkers just want to wipe out the human race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Please note: I mean that attacking people who are breaking and entering is understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 And, btw, I've read about that quote of Sheridan's. It's not cool. Breaking a written agreement with a civilization is disgusting, and I don't like it. But there is no written agreement with the white walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Come on, I'm waiting for a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 25 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: He shouldn't have been there at all. He shouldn't have been in command, but demanded it. He shouldn't be hunting people beyond the wall. He should have turned back. This does not answer anything I was asking, but if that pleases you, I mostly agree. 26 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: Hell, he could have tried to speak to them with more than a challenge. Lots of reasons. Yea, sure. Dead Ser Waymar should've been talking to Will too, I suppose. Your solution here is unreachable. The main problem is that Ser Waymar and the Other can only understand each other visually. Gestures, I mean, and making a conclusion regarding what the two have seen regarding the other one. Ser Waymar eventually had nothing that could harm an Other, yet the Other went to him while armed with his weapon. You can also say that the Others were offended territorycally, but there were wildling camps around there, rangers have been ranging there before too, and the Watch found dead rangers (including the one that eventually aimed for Jeor Mormont) only miles away from Castle Black. And, on top of all this, Ser Waymar's broken sword was eventually found by wildlings. One can imagine they found it where Ser Waymar faced the Other. So that's just a big nope. 38 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: And again, and individual interaction isn't the same as a large scale conflict. No it's not, but it shows intentions. 38 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: And again, I'm not an other whisperer, I do not speak for them, we barely have any idea of what motivates them, but I think it's wild to assume the only answer is obliteration of us or them. None of us are, and I'm not saying you're siding with them. But we can logically assume their intentions by what we currently know about them. And Ser Waymar and his companions weren't the provocative ones in this conflict, I think I made it clear why. 38 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: Do they even have sheaths? No. But even if he shows up armed, putting down his weapon on the ground would show his intentions to Ser Waymar. He didn't do such a thing, and it wasn't over his limits either. 39 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: Do we know what happened with the Wildlings... who the Night's watch themselves were trying to hunt down? Yes. Raiders, because wildlings killing rangers, crossing the Wall and raiding southern lands was eventually a problem back then. I have a guess what happened to those people. If those wildlings simply left that place back to gather around Mance, other wildlings wouldn't have gone there. But they eventually did, and found Ser Waymar's broken sword. 44 minutes ago, Mourning Star said: It was Waymar who showed up, drew his sword and challenged them. Trying to paint the Other as the instigator is wild. Where? Where other rangers and wildlings also showed up before and after too? Come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said: The main problem is that Ser Waymar and the Other can only understand each other visually. Gestures, I mean, and making a conclusion regarding what the two have seen regarding the other one. Ser Waymar eventually had nothing that could harm an Other, yet the Other went to him while armed with his weapon. Exactly. If the white walker wanted peaceful interaction then and there, he could've laid down his weapon, sheathed it, done whatever to signal friendly intentions. None of this happened. Prince Daeron is correct also in saying that the white walker was still attacking when Waymar had no way to fight back. However, yes, the white walker could've seen him as a threat to put down with necessary force. 3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said: Yea, sure. Dead Ser Waymar should've been talking to Will too, I suppose. Your solution here is unreachable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 And I hate to say it, but this situation is an us or them situation. Also, Daeron. I'm pretty sure if they have swords and armor, they'd probably have sheaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 21 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: And I hate to say it, but this situation is an us or them situation Not necesarilly. This is entirely baseless, but I do think the fate of the Others will depend on human individual's decision, and the right call will be letting them survive. They are a radical humanoid species (they bring cold and windstorm with themselves, altough the storm not in every case), so I don't think they have a future in a common civilisation, but that does not exclude any other solutions to this problem. I mean, we are told the tale of the Night's King. It might be that his current portration is innacurate because the guy eventually reached what humanity couldn't, if his wife actually was a female White Walker and managed to give her his seed. All this still won't be preventing an armed conflict, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 The most likely outcome is going to be the complete extermination of the white walkers. It hasn't happened, but it probably will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 32 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said: Yea, sure. Dead Ser Waymar should've been talking to Will too, I suppose. Your solution here is unreachable. What solution? Not being there? Seems like that would have worked great. Trying to communicate? Absolutely worth a shot. Running away? Worked! As for the larger conflict, obviously it has little to nothing to do with one incident between individuals, this is just the snapshot we were given as readers. The solution to any conflict starts with opening communication and trying to understand the other side. Quote The main problem is that Ser Waymar and the Other can only understand each other visually. Gestures, I mean, and making a conclusion regarding what the two have seen regarding the other one. Ser Waymar eventually had nothing that could harm an Other, yet the Other went to him while armed with his weapon. The Other didn't come at him until he drew his sword... "It stood in front of Royce." There is no indication either Waymar or the Other could understand each other. So yes, possibly trying to communicate through gestures may have helped. But again, this is an individual encounter where the real solution was not to be there and not equitable to a large continent wide conflict of peoples. Quote You can also say that the Others were offended territorycally, but there were wildling camps around there, rangers have been ranging there before too, and the Watch found dead rangers (including the one that eventually aimed for Jeor Mormont) only miles away from Castle Black. And, on top of all this, Ser Waymar's broken sword was eventually found by wildlings. One can imagine they found it where Ser Waymar faced the Other. So that's just a big nope. I have literally no idea what point you are trying to make. It seems likely the Others sense of time itself is different from mankind's. But again, we can only speculate, but it is easy to imagine understandable motivations from their point of view. Quote No it's not, but it shows intentions. No it does not. It doesn't even show intentions for the individual let alone the entire group. Mankind presents a very real existential threat to the "elder races", we know they would have an understandable motive to try and wipe out humanity, the us or them mentality being put forth in this very thread. My entire point is that this is the sort of thinking that sparks endless conflict and cycles of vengeance, it's not a solution for lasting peace. Quote None of us are, and I'm not saying you're siding with them. But we can logically assume their intentions by what we currently know about them. And Ser Waymar and his companions weren't the provocative ones in this conflict, I think I made it clear why. No, we really can't logically assume their intentions, let alone their motivations. As shown above Waymar was the one who provoked the fight, far beyond the boarder of authority issuing challenges. Quote No. But even if he shows up armed, putting down his weapon on the ground would show his intentions to Ser Waymar. He didn't do such a thing, and it wasn't over his limits either. Why would the Other do this? More importantly it misses the core of what I was saying. Doing the right thing isn't conditional on the behavior of others. I have no idea what you mean by limits. Quote Yes. Raiders, because wildlings killing rangers, crossing the Wall and raiding southern lands was eventually a problem back then. I have a guess what happened to those people. If those wildlings simply left that place back to gather around Mance, other wildlings wouldn't have gone there. But they eventually did, and found Ser Waymar's broken sword. And rangers kill wildlings... Quote Where? Where other rangers and wildlings also showed up before and after too? Come on. I literally just do not understand what you are trying to say here... Beyond the Wall? Outside the Seven Kingdoms? In the forests man gave to the Singers? Far beyond any semblance of authority or claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Just because Night's King screwed a white walker lady doesn't mean he reached some sort of understanding. It can be inferred from the story, but he could've just been turned into a white walker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Ah, good you have deigned to reply Mourning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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