War Won't Save The World

[CamiloRP]

55 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

8000 years to build up their strength? Don't make me laugh. 

Never claimed 8000 years, Westerosi history isn't that well documented, maybe the Others rose up many times before. Also, we don't know their biology so we don't know how fast they can recover their numbers. Or maybe, there was a pact that kept the peace, a pact humans recently broke, as I theorize here

 

59 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

 Thank you. 

That was never my point tho, which you should know by now, tho I guessed you haven't been thought reeding comprehension at school yet.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

That was never my point tho, which you should know by now, tho I guessed you haven't been thought reeding comprehension at school yet.

Oh, no. Your point is that they should sit back and sing Kumbaya while the Others slaughter them all. 

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Never claimed 8000 years, Westerosi history isn't that well documented, maybe the Others rose up many times before. Also, we don't know their biology so we don't know how fast they can recover their numbers. Or maybe, there was a pact that kept the peace, a pact humans recently broke, as I theorize here

 

The Nightfort has been abandoned for 200 years. Why would they wait so long? 

[divica]

In regards to this, I would like to ask a question. Do the books describe the wights state of decomposition? Because while the show had skeletons without muscle moving around I don't know if that works in the books. And if the wights need to have some muscle and flesh atached to their bones then there is a limit to the number of years a dead body can work as a wight.

On the other hand there are descriptions about the others using ice creatures and those things could be alive indefinetly.

Another problem is that we don't know how ww are born or how long they survive. 

So even if there were 8000 years of peace then only the preparations done in the last years may have any use for the conflict.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

In regards to this, I would like to ask a question. Do the books describe the wights state of decomposition? Because while the show had skeletons without muscle moving around I don't know if that works in the books. And if the wights need to have some muscle and flesh atached to their bones then there is a limit to the number of years a dead body can work as a wight.

 

I forget....maybe this has answers? 

 

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I forget....maybe this has answers? 

 

This isn't exactly what I was talking about. We know that wights rot because jeor sent a hand of the wight jon killed to KL as proof and when it got there it was decomposed. At least I am pretty sure this happened in the books.

 

What I meant to ask is if in order for a body to be wightified it needs muscles atached to bones. Because we know that in order for bodies to move they need muscle. And even in the cold after some years the flesh of dead things decomposes if they are moving around. That would mean that wights would have a expiration date. You can't have dead things exposed to the elements and expect them to last indefinetly!

[Jaenara Belarys]

11 minutes ago, divica said:

This isn't exactly what I was talking about. We know that wights rot because jeor sent a hand of the wight jon killed to KL as proof and when it got there it was decomposed. At least I am pretty sure this happened in the books.

 

Sorry for wasting time . 

12 minutes ago, divica said:

What I meant to ask is if in order for a body to be wightified it needs muscles atached to bones. Because we know that in order for bodies to move they need muscle. And even in the cold after some years the flesh of dead things decomposes if they are moving around. That would mean that wights would have a expiration date. You can't have dead things exposed to the elements and expect them to last indefinetly!

Probably not forever. It'd have to be pretty darn magical in order for it to be bare bones movement. 

[divica]

Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

Sorry for wasting time . 

Probably not forever. It'd have to be pretty darn magical in order for it to be bare bones movement. 

Then unless the ww are hiding bodies inside ice for thousands of years in order to preserve them it is irrelevant if they are at peace for 8000 years. Anything they have done beyhond a few hundred years just isn't relevant in regards to wights. 

On the other hand it will be very interesting to know more about the ww, how long they live and how they are born...

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, divica said:

On the other hand it will be very interesting to know more about the ww, how long they live and how they are born...

Imagine: an ice nursery filled with little white walker babies. lmao. 

 

1 minute ago, divica said:

Then unless the ww are hiding bodies inside ice for thousands of years in order to preserve them it is irrelevant if they are at peace for 8000 years. Anything they have done beyhond a few hundred years just isn't relevant in regards to wights. 

 

White Walker Refrigeration Co. 

[CamiloRP]

On 5/14/2021 at 6:59 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Oh, no. Your point is that they should sit back and sing Kumbaya while the Others slaughter them all. 

Nope, not at all, learn to read. I don't support inaction, inaction against evil, is just evil, but I do know that GRRM is a hippie, who wrote many stories in which war dooms humanity, not saves it. And I know he named the 'monsters' in his story with an anthropology word used to described discriminated against people who are viewed as naturally bad.

 

Quote

The Nightfort has been abandoned for 200 years. Why would they wait so long? 

You don't know that they did, the Freefolk say they been attacking them for a long time.

[Nadden]

On 3/16/2021 at 9:16 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

He said "Dance with me" because the Other had his sword out in the open. I have my copy of  A Game of Thrones in my room, do you want me to get it and check?

A few things…..The ruins on the shield of house Royce give the letters to spell Royce. Research will give you the meaning of those Anglo-Saxon ruins. Take a look;) 

“Dance with me then” ……Anagram- “white chanted men” or “White men chanted” or “Men chanted white” or “Chanted white men”

And Waymar is fore filling part of the a Lightbringer  prophecy. The first forging. His brothers fore fill the other two.

The wildling camp is just a green dream that Will is having.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

Could this be a scenario like WWII where even the most despicable factions (Stalin’s USSR for example) are willing to unite over a cause to defeat a serious evil (Nazi Germany) even when they themselves are horrible in their own ways? And then after said war the two sides would go back to hating and distrusting each other (like the Cold War)? WWII wasn’t exactly a “good vs evil” war too considering how opportunistic and genocidal some of the Allies have been (Churchill allowed millions of Bengalis to die in a famine and opposed Indian independence).

[CamiloRP]

8 hours ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

Could this be a scenario like WWII where even the most despicable factions (Stalin’s USSR for example) are willing to unite over a cause to defeat a serious evil (Nazi Germany) even when they themselves are horrible in their own ways? And then after said war the two sides would go back to hating and distrusting each other (like the Cold War)? WWII wasn’t exactly a “good vs evil” war too considering how opportunistic and genocidal some of the Allies have been (Churchill allowed millions of Bengalis to die in a famine and opposed Indian independence).

Yeah, Churchill was famously a massive asshole, and lets not even talk about Stalin. And the US after 'liberating' people from concentration camps essentially marched the LGBT people back in.

 

I don't think this would be the case for the story tho, basically because of points 2 through 8 in the OP.

[SeanF]

On 6/14/2021 at 3:55 AM, CamiloRP said:

Yeah, Churchill was famously a massive asshole, and lets not even talk about Stalin. And the US after 'liberating' people from concentration camps essentially marched the LGBT people back in.

 

I don't think this would be the case for the story tho, basically because of points 2 through 8 in the OP.

You have to be a bit of a bastard to win a war. Nice guys like Aenys I just get trampled on.  Worse, the people who are dependant on them get trampled on.

Even if the war for the dawn ends in negotiation, the Others have to suffer sufficiently to make them want to sue for peace.

[CamiloRP]

13 hours ago, SeanF said:

You have to be a bit of a bastard to win a war. Nice guys like Aenys I just get trampled on.  Worse, the people who are dependant on them get trampled on.

Even if the war for the dawn ends in negotiation, the Others have to suffer sufficiently to make them want to sue for peace.

I don't know if it's 100% necessary, and the Others' suffering would only create more human suffering, even if in the end there's peace. Thanks to Craster we know the Others are willing to accept something other than murder everyone and move on, and even in Craster's case, the price payed was too low. 

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

On 6/13/2021 at 7:55 PM, CamiloRP said:

Yeah, Churchill was famously a massive asshole, and lets not even talk about Stalin. And the US after 'liberating' people from concentration camps essentially marched the LGBT people back in.

 

I don't think this would be the case for the story tho, basically because of points 2 through 8 in the OP.

Also WWII wasn't as much as a "good VS evil" fight despite what some people make of it. Although the Allies did stop the Holocaust in its tracks before it could've claimed more people (but by the time they did so too many people died) they never really cared about stopping it in the first place.

So maybe in this story the Others will have serious grievances that'll make them demand that they regain their homeland again? Maybe they weren't the ones who started the War of the Dawn and were in some ways victims of injustice? That's what I like to think?

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't know if it's 100% necessary, and the Others' suffering would only create more human suffering, even if in the end there's peace. Thanks to Craster we know the Others are willing to accept something other than murder everyone and move on, and even in Craster's case, the price payed was too low. 

I don't think that humanity as a whole should pay the price that was demanded of Craster.  War is preferable to that.

2 hours ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

Also WWII wasn't as much as a "good VS evil" fight despite what some people make of it. Although the Allies did stop the Holocaust in its tracks before it could've claimed more people (but by the time they did so too many people died) they never really cared about stopping it in the first place.

So maybe in this story the Others will have serious grievances that'll make them demand that they regain their homeland again? Maybe they weren't the ones who started the War of the Dawn and were in some ways victims of injustice? That's what I like to think?

Thucidydes nailed it. States fight wars for reasons of honour, self-interest, and fear.  Very few people fight wars for reasons of pure selflessness.  That doesn't make it wrong to fight wars, necessarily.  The motives of the Nazis and the Japanese leadership were unquestionably evil;  it wasn't only the Holocaust; the Hunger Plan, Generalplan Ost, The Three Alls, were equally awful.  The motives of the Allies were a mix of good and bad, but I don't think there's much doubt about which side needed to win that war.  The world would be a much worse place than it is today, had the Axis prevailed. 

I'm pretty certain that the Others have reasons for their actions, and in all likelihood, have some genuine grievances.  Martin has modelled them off Tad Williams' Norns, who likewise have real grievances against men, but they are still a major threat to the world. 

[CamiloRP]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that humanity as a whole should pay the price that was demanded of Craster.  War is preferable to that.

Unagreable conditions are a starting point, besides, you don't know what they do to the babies, Craster's wives seem to think they adopt them, and isn't that better for the boys than what Craster would do?

[Mystical]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

Thucidydes nailed it. States fight wars for reasons of honour, self-interest, and fear.  Very few people fight wars for reasons of pure selflessness.  That doesn't make it wrong to fight wars, necessarily.  The motives of the Nazis and the Japanese leadership were unquestionably evil;  it wasn't only the Holocaust; the Hunger Plan, Generalplan Ost, The Three Alls, were equally awful.  The motives of the Allies were a mix of good and bad, but I don't think there's much doubt about which side needed to win that war.  The world would be a much worse place than it is today, had the Axis prevailed.

Well India would have been screwed even more if the war had continued. Churchill said 'eff them, who cares' and took their resources from them during WWll to supply his troops. At least 4 million people in India died as a result (starvation mostly). None of the sides, Axis or Allies, in the war were good guys. At most you can say one side is maybe the lesser the evil.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Mystical said:

Well India would have been screwed even more if the war had continued. Churchill said 'eff them, who cares' and took their resources from them during WWll to supply his troops. At least 4 million people in India died as a result (starvation mostly). None of the sides, Axis or Allies, in the war were good guys. At most you can say one side is maybe the lesser the evil.

The Allies were definitely the much better guys in WWII.  Millions of us would almost certainly not be alive today had the Axis won, and millions more of us would be living in conditions of unimaginable privation and tyranny.  On almost level of human development, the world is a far more prosperous place (and more free) than it was in 1940, and it is inconceivable that would be the case had the Axis won.   I for one would not have the nerve to look any veteran of that war in the eye, and tell him he was hardly better than a Nazi.  That's the worst kind of revisionism.

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, Mystical said:

Well India would have been screwed even more if the war had continued. Churchill said 'eff them, who cares' and took their resources from them during WWll to supply his troops. At least 4 million people in India died as a result (starvation mostly). None of the sides, Axis or Allies, in the war were good guys. At most you can say one side is maybe the lesser the evil.

He was one bad racist motherf. 

Calling Gandhi half naked fakir is no issue compared to the WW2 policies in the colonies especially Indian subcontinent, namely India, Pakistan, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and so. 

And I thought the forced conscription and compulsory logistics manufacturing in WW1 was bad. 

1917. Take a bow Sam Mendes