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Jamie’s Hand


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Just wondering what other people’s thoughts are on the reason, or cause, for Jamie’s hand being cut off. Please vote or poop on any you like but definitely add your own no matter how absurd you feel it may be.
 

1. Was it just for shits and giggles?

2. To neuter Jamie as a swordsman?

3. Tywin arranged the removal to release Jamie from the Kingsgaurd?

4. An added disfigurement to pass him off as the real Jamie, once the imposter was seen to be an inadequate swordsman when he was “captured” during his fight with Brienne.

5. Not being allowed to rape Brienne the Bloody Mummers just wanted to pass around and use Jamie’s hand for “Weird Shit!” 

6. Something with the Gods? Jamie has his sword hand cut off and Tyrion his nose. All that Jamie ever was was his hand. (His words or close to it.) Nose = Knows.
      “If the gods are good, he'll look like his          
        uncle
 and think like his father.” 

7. Punishment for stealing or poaching. Wrongfully taking Jory’s life.

8. Lord Leech took his hand for X? reasons, and required Jamie to be dead feverish in need of leeching (to open his eye) and strong wine with herbs for the inflammation. hippocras? (Pssst... we all know that’s not wine he’s sipping right?)

9. Or something like the hand was reaped by a sharp, shivering, silver, scythe that makes him roar. 

The fat Dothraki put aside his knife to unsheathe a huge curved arakh, the wickedly sharp scythe-sword the horselords loved.

no sellsword would make him scream.

Sunlight ran silver along the edge of the arakh as it came shivering down, almost too fast to see. And Jaime screamed.

10. The Dothraki was aiming for the chains and just had a Whoopsy. “My bad!, thought that was gonna look really cool. You know striking chains off with a sword?! Wait, let me try again. Geeesh fine I’ll use the key
 

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Are you just trying to come up with as many absurd ideas as possible, or do you really want to discuss this?

The maiming of Jaime's arm is part of a massive set of symbols around hands: the Hand of the King, Garth Greenhand, the Jaffer Flowers wited hand that attacks Jon Snow, lobstered gauntlets, "hands of gold are always cold ...," the Glover sigil, Ser Jorah giving gloves to the Widow of the Waterfront, Arya's fingerless gloves, Davos having his fingers cut off, Qhorin Halfhand, Coldhands, and handmaidens, among other references. 

The hand Jaime loses is his sword arm and also his kingslayer arm used to stab Aerys in the back and to push Bran off the tower of the old keep. Losing it may represent the beginning of a redemption arc for Jaime - his sinister (I use that word ironically) hand has been removed so he can focus on honor and oathkeeping. On the other hand (so to speak) Jaime soon begins to develop his skill at sword-fighting with his left hand. Is he simply repeating the mistakes he made earlier in his life? Jaime notes that the gold hand he designs for himself is good for holding a wine glass. 

After the maiming, the severed hand is strung up and hung around Jaime's neck so we know the Bloody Mummers aren't passing it around. It seems to disappear once Jaime is placed under the care of Qyburn. Knowing Qyburn's weird talents at reanimating Ser Gregor Clegane, it is worrisome that he might have some plan to use Jaime's hand in a way that would not allow the dead flesh to rest in peace. 

The fact that the hand was cut off with a scythe-like blade is probably part of the harvest cycle that I am finding as a basis for much of the symbolism and action in the books. Jaime's hand is harvested as wheat would be cut by a scythe. This may put Jaime into the category of a sacrificial king, similar to the John Barleycorn symbolism associated with Bran and Jon Snow. 

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9 hours ago, Seams said:

On the other hand

Ha! :) 
 

Jaime notes that the gold hand he designs for himself is good for holding a wine glass. “

Haven’t thought of that.

#5 and #10 are jokes. I wanted put some fun in the thought process. #1 is just, it was done because they could. #4 came to mind when Lady Smallwood? Said Jamie is in my bed and to exhausted to come to the gate. Ment to be a jest but what if...Rorge and Tyrion both noseless...

There is so much symbolism with hands, fingers, gloves and Holds, as Jamie would say, “It’s to much”. I’m seriously looking for the purpose/reason his hand was taken and what other people see it as. I’m confident it’s a mix of many things as everything is so layered. Im searching for that one answer if there is one.

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Vargo liked cutting limbs off of people. Their is also a possibility that he did it because he suspected that roose would turn cloak, so he decided to harm tywins golden son. This way the blame goes to Roose Bolton because vargo is Boltons man.

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Jaime's story very much centers around justice, and oaths... and breaking them.

From his entrance into the Kingsguard as an assurance of his fathers loyalty, to his Kingslaying, to his capture and swearing oaths to Cat, to giving Oathkeeper to Brienne, to the Bracken/Blackwood conflict and lifting the siege of Riverrun.

Tyr, the Norse god of oaths, justice, and the sword, for whom Tuesday is named, swore an oath to Fenrir the Wolf when they bound him to the ground with Gleipnir. Tyr placed his hand in the wolf's mouth as assurance it would be released. He breaks this oath, and Fenrir bites off his hand at the wrist (which is why we call it a wrist or "wolf joint"). Afterwards, Tyr fights left handed. Come Ragnarok Fenrir will swallow Odin and the Sun itself.

Jaime pushed Bran out of the window, binding him to the earth, and ends up losing his hand at the wrist.

"So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."

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10 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

swore an oath to Fenrir the Wolf when they bound him to the ground with Gleipnir.

I’ve considered the first chain breaking or binding to be the strange thing seen over Winterfell. Not sure if GRRM is doing the two failed attempts before Gleipnir like in the Norse tail or a breaking of 3 bindings across Westeros.

A gate loomed up, a black iron snake coiled tight about bar and post. When he crashed against it, the gate shuddered and the snake clanked and slithered and held. 

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone

 Lightning down a chain a la Bram Stokers book the White Worm.

Maybe Frankensteining something up? Man I’d love that. “It’s alive!”

 

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14 hours ago, Seams said:

This is an old meditation on hand and arm symbolism, with special emphasis on the Lannisters. I never followed up on it as I had intended but there might be something of interest here. 

Awesome thank you.

“At one point, I tried to keep track of references to Jaime’s maimed appendage and found that it is sometimes referred to as an arm and sometimes as a hand. It is also called a stump sometimes, which is interesting to consider alongside the reaching and grabbing tree branches in the prologue scene. There is probably a pattern to the references, and I would need to do another re-read to sort out the arm / hand code.” 

I may have found a pattern of sorts. GRRM may use a meter or foot with chapters.

 Ex. Ned2 cat2 with Arya as the break in pattern. 

Aria:  A written or spoken passage or text    likened to a dramatic or emotional operatic solo

Arya being the lone wolf so maybe her song has its placement. Her involvement or actions to content pattern are different. I always thought Sansa was breaking people free because of Sandors bird song moment.
I’m probably wrong on all accounts but interesting if correct.

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Ignoring any ways the author ties it in with larger themes, Vargo cut Jaime's hand off because

1. its his hobby. he likes to cut peoples' hands and feet off, Qyburn says so.

2. He is doing his best to stop Roose from being able to make a deal with Tywin. He has burned his boats by defecting from Tywin (in return for Harrenhal!!) and realises he cannot switch sides again but that others may. Roose says as much to Jaime when negotiating his release. He needs Jaime to exculpate him from involvement in Vargo's actions. Jaime would already realise what is afoot from the Frey's whinging about Robb and Roose's guarded answer to it. Not that he would expect the Red Wedding i think (always naive about his Father) but he must see Robbs alliance has begun to crumble.

3. He and his men are hideous shits and of course the more privileged he is and the better his swordsmanship the more satisfaction it gives them to cut it off

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14 hours ago, Castellan said:

1. its his hobby. he likes to cut peoples' hands and feet off, Qyburn says so.

I loved Vargo as a character. He was so “dess-spicabley” intriguing. I like the idea that he just enjoys hobbling people or has podophobia. Gods i hope it has nothing to do with the meter.

And what’s up with his coin necklace? It appears he’s as far traveled as Euron...

All men must have a hobby but does he have a reason for this amusement. Is he a slaver, Collecting runaways? 
 

If he maimed Jamie to prohibit Roose from flipping sides why not just kill Jamie. Parade his corpse bellow a Bolton banner. If ransom why harm him and devalue his capture unlike his defense of Brienne. 
 

Bah, I’m rambling. Thank you I appreciate your posting and I like #1. A hobbling hobby.

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On 3/9/2021 at 8:44 AM, Seams said:

This is an old meditation on hand and arm symbolism

I know you got something good. Gimme gimme! You found or knew about that sable phrase that wraps all of sable up. (Stoopid Rangers! :) If it wasn’t for my contempt of Rangers in fantasy I’d like to believe I would have discovered it.) Now I’m searching for a similar phrase for a few more gates in the Wall and hands. If there is one.

 

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On 3/8/2021 at 5:01 AM, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Just wondering what other people’s thoughts are on the reason, or cause, for Jamie’s hand being cut off. Please vote or poop on any you like but definitely add your own no matter how absurd you feel it may be.
 

1. Was it just for shits and giggles?

2. To neuter Jamie as a swordsman?

3. Tywin arranged the removal to release Jamie from the Kingsgaurd?

4. An added disfigurement to pass him off as the real Jamie, once the imposter was seen to be an inadequate swordsman when he was “captured” during his fight with Brienne.

5. Not being allowed to rape Brienne the Bloody Mummers just wanted to pass around and use Jamie’s hand for “Weird Shit!” 

6. Something with the Gods? Jamie has his sword hand cut off and Tyrion his nose. All that Jamie ever was was his hand. (His words or close to it.) Nose = Knows.
      “If the gods are good, he'll look like his          
        uncle
 and think like his father.” 

7. Punishment for stealing or poaching. Wrongfully taking Jory’s life.

8. Lord Leech took his hand for X? reasons, and required Jamie to be dead feverish in need of leeching (to open his eye) and strong wine with herbs for the inflammation. hippocras? (Pssst... we all know that’s not wine he’s sipping right?)

9. Or something like the hand was reaped by a sharp, shivering, silver, scythe that makes him roar. 

The fat Dothraki put aside his knife to unsheathe a huge curved arakh, the wickedly sharp scythe-sword the horselords loved.

no sellsword would make him scream.

Sunlight ran silver along the edge of the arakh as it came shivering down, almost too fast to see. And Jaime screamed.

10. The Dothraki was aiming for the chains and just had a Whoopsy. “My bad!, thought that was gonna look really cool. You know striking chains off with a sword?! Wait, let me try again. Geeesh fine I’ll use the key
 

I think the explanation in the book is pretty solid. Vargo thinks, but doesn't know, that Roose might switch sides now that Tywin has won on the Blackwater. So taking the hand accomplishes several things. First, it makes Jaime less of a threat as his hostage. It is also a way to curry favor with Karstark, who has offered a lordship and his daughter's hand for anyone who brings him the kingslayer, and it drives a wedge between Roose and Tywin if that were to become necessary.

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