Mace Tyrell is a fool

[saltedmalted]

Why does he go around crowning other would-be-kings when he could reap rewards by simply staying out?

Mace could crown himself if that is what his pride demands. Many people say that he couldn't do so because he had no "claim" but what claim did Renly have?

Crowning Joffrey also makes little sense from a rational cost-benefit point of view. The Lannisters were facing certain defeat unless Mace chose to bail them out.

Why should Mace save the Lannisters when he could get great leverage by just sitting at home?

[The hairy bear]

12 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Mace could crown himself if that is what his pride demands. Many people say that he couldn't do so because he had no "claim" but what claim did Renly have?

At least Renly was related to both previous ruling dynasties (Baratheons and Targs), and he had a great a significant amount of royal blood. This may sound silly by our modern standards, but among medieval nobility those things mattered, and for a Westerosi the Baratheon lineage would just be superior to the Tyrell lineage.

And in terms of supports, Renly had managed to convince another great lord to push forward his claim as a king. A claim from Mace alone would be much more easily dismissed.

12 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Crowning Joffrey also makes little sense from a rational cost-benefit point of view. The Lannisters were facing certain defeat unless Mace chose to bail them out.

A scenario where the Stannis crushes the Lannisters would be the last thing Mace would want. Stannis has a personal enmity towards Mace (since the siege of Storm's End during the Rebellion), and is widely known to be resentful and vindictive. On top of that, he is trying to impose a new religion by the means of burning the relics of the current one, which happens to has it's central see in the Reach.

So, if Stannis becomes king, at best aces will be shunned from court and detached of any political influence at best. Or he'd be beheaded for treason at worst. Of course, it would be in Mace's best interests to prevent Stannis to come anywhere near the throne, specially if he is able to negotiate an alliance with another faction that offers his family royal marriages and seats on the Closed Council.

12 minutes ago, saltedmalted said:

Why should Mace save the Lannisters when he could get great leverage by just sitting at home?

If you stay out of the war until someone becomes the victor, you'll probably find out that he is grateful with the ones that have actually helped him to win the throne. His supporters will be the ones who are favored at court, given prestigious appointments, etc.

[saltedmalted]

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

At least Renly was related to both previous ruling dynasties (Baratheons and Targs), and he had a great a significant amount of royal blood.

Even if you believe the blood argument Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis will still come ahead of Renly. 

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Stannis has a personal enmity towards Mace (since the siege of Storm's End during the Rebellion), and is widely known to be resentful and vindictive.

Stannis is far too weak to challenge the Tyrells. Mace didn't even know about Stannis' intentions when he declared for Renly.

He didn't know about the incest so backing Renly was rebelling against Robert's heirs.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

On top of that, he is trying to impose a new religion by the means of burning the relics of the current one, which happens to has it's central see in the Reach.

Renly's crowning and Stannis' acceptance of R'hllor are independent events.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Renly had managed to convince another great lord to push forward his claim as a king. A claim from Mace alone would be much more easily dismissed.

The great lord is Mace Tyrell himself. It cannot be used to justify Mace's actions.

I agree that Mace's claim would not go unchallenged, but the same is true for Renly. If you are going to fight for a disputed crown why do it for anybody but yourself?

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

A scenario where the Stannis crushes the Lannisters would be the last thing Mace would want. Stannis has a personal enmity towards Mace (since the siege of Storm's End during the Rebellion), and is widely known to be resentful and vindictive.

Stannis despite gaining the allegiance of Stormlanders couldn't have defeated Mace. After battling the Lannisters and maybe the Starks Stannis wouldn't have the strength to fight unhurt forces of the Reach.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

On top of that, he is trying to impose a new religion by the means of burning the relics of the current one, which happens to has it's central see in the Reach.

As I pointed above religion couldn't have effected Mace's judgement.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

So, if Stannis becomes king, at best aces will be shunned from court and detached of any political influence at best.

If Stannis becomes king the throne would be completely worthless. The throne has lost the allegiance of a majority of Westeros.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Of course, it would be in Mace's best interests to prevent Stannis to come anywhere near the throne, specially if he is able to negotiate an alliance with another faction that offers his family royal marriages and seats on the Closed Council.

Mace could have waited for Stannis and the Lannisters to bleed each other. The winner would be very weak, Mace could easily step in and take over.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

If you stay out of the war until someone becomes the victor, you'll probably find out that he is grateful with the ones that have actually helped him to win the throne.

After the end of RR 4 great houses came together to make a formidable alliance. Fighting such an alliance was not a good idea from a cost-benefit POV.

The strategic scenario prior to BotB is different. Neither Stannis nor Joffrey can create a great alliance capable of stopping Mace.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

His supporters will be the ones who are favored at court, given prestigious appointments, etc.

The throne's power extends to the Crownlands and no further. Why should Mace care about a throne without power?

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Why does he go around crowning other would-be-kings when he could reap rewards by simply staying out?

Mace could crown himself if that is what his pride demands. Many people say that he couldn't do so because he had no "claim" but what claim did Renly have?

Crowning Joffrey also makes little sense from a rational cost-benefit point of view. The Lannisters were facing certain defeat unless Mace chose to bail them out.

Why should Mace save the Lannisters when he could get great leverage by just sitting at home?

Of course the craziest scheme is the first one where Mace, Renly, and Loras were throwing Margaery at Robert so he’d set Cersei aside and marry Margaery. Tywin would be pissed and the financial backlash would be bad, Joffrey might kill his half-siblings, stuff like that.

[saltedmalted]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tywin would be pissed and the financial backlash would be bad

Putting Cersei aside would create a major crisis which would give Robert a freehand to void the debt owed to Casterly Rock.

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Joffrey might kill his half-siblings, stuff like that.

Joffrey would have to suffer from a hunting accident.

[Loose Bolt]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

A scenario where the Stannis crushes the Lannisters would be the last thing Mace would want. Stannis has a personal enmity towards Mace (since the siege of Storm's End during the Rebellion), and is widely known to be resentful and vindictive. On top of that, he is trying to impose a new religion by the means of burning the relics of the current one, which happens to has it's central see in the Reach.

So, if Stannis becomes king, at best aces will be shunned from court and detached of any political influence at best. Or he'd be beheaded for treason at worst. Of course, it would be in Mace's best interests to prevent Stannis to come anywhere near the throne, specially if he is able to negotiate an alliance with another faction that offers his family royal marriages and seats on the Closed Council

I assume that Stannis victory at King's Landing would not have been enough to secure his crown.

For instance last thing that Littlefinger wants is a king who really cares about what he had done. Or he might have survived reign of Robert. But I assume that Stannis would want to know where all gold of the IT had gone and I think that Stannis would be less tolerant toward pimps than his late brother. So if lord Baelish survives fall of KL he would run to Vale and try to make sure that Vale would cause as many problems for Stannis as possible.

Dorne, Ironborn, North and Riverlands would almost certainly not kneel to Stannis either.

Stannis cannot invade Westerlands either so unless he somehow find some local puppet lord who would fight in his name best he could hope about their policy would be neutrality.

So even after that victory only thing that Stannis had gained would be Crownlands and very unconfy chair.

 

 

[Groo]

4 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Why does he go around crowning other would-be-kings when he could reap rewards by simply staying out?

Mace could crown himself if that is what his pride demands. Many people say that he couldn't do so because he had no "claim" but what claim did Renly have?

Crowning Joffrey also makes little sense from a rational cost-benefit point of view. The Lannisters were facing certain defeat unless Mace chose to bail them out.

Why should Mace save the Lannisters when he could get great leverage by just sitting at home?

Remember that most of the Stormlands went for Renly and his initial alliance was so large because it was the Reach and the Stormlands united. Mace wouldn't have had that on his own. Later, Joffrey meant an alliance with the Lannisters and the Westerlands. Mace wouldn't have had that on his own either. Geography matters too. An alliance between the North and Dorne, for example, isn't that useful for either. They're too far apart to easily support each other. Mace's alliances have been with powerful neighbors where mutual support is realistic and adds to their strength.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Why does he go around crowning other would-be-kings when he could reap rewards by simply staying out?

Mace could crown himself if that is what his pride demands. Many people say that he couldn't do so because he had no "claim" but what claim did Renly have?

Crowning Joffrey also makes little sense from a rational cost-benefit point of view. The Lannisters were facing certain defeat unless Mace chose to bail them out.

Why should Mace save the Lannisters when he could get great leverage by just sitting at home?

Mace is an utter fool. We can see that every time he opens his mouth. Lady Olenna is the real power in Highgarden. She makes all the decisions. So, to answer your questions as to why Lady O made the decisions she did:

The Tyrells have the strength to take the Iron Throne by themselves and install Mace as king, first of his name, but then they would have to conquer each of the great houses one by one in order to make the throne worth having. That would mean another war with Dorne (and look what happened the last time a Tyrell went adventuring in Dorne), as well as with Lannisters, Arryns, Tullys, Starks and whatever houses they lack in the stormlands. The far easier path is to align with Tywin and marry Margaery to Joffrey. In this way, they get a Tyrell heir to the Iron Throne within a year, perhaps two or three within the next few years, and then they can get rid of Joffrey any time and install Margaery as queen regent for the next decade or more. And no, she was never planning to kill Joffrey at the wedding. That would be stupid. She and Littlefinger were trying to kill Tyrion by poisoning his pie, but Joffrey ate it instead.

Meanwhile, Tywin will soon go off warring in the north where there is a good chance he will die in battle, and there will be Tyrell loyalists with him to perhaps help this along. At the same time, Cersei is married off to her next husband, so she's out of the picture, Jaime is KG, sworn to obey the king or his regent, and Tyrion is not likely to wield half the power of Tywin because he's a dwarf -- and pretty soon it appears that he died in the Blackwater anyway.

So by aligning with the Lannisters now, they get the quick and easy path to the Iron Throne and they can work to undermine the Lanns from the inside through treachery rather than the most costly and riskier method of confronting them openly on the battlefield.

[saltedmalted]

31 minutes ago, Groo said:

Remember that most of the Stormlands went for Renly and his initial alliance was so large because it was the Reach and the Stormlands united. Mace wouldn't have had that on his own.

I am not advocating for Mace to go for the throne. In my opinion going for the throne all by himself makes more sense than crowning Renly.

The best move would be to sit tight and let all the rest kill each other.

31 minutes ago, Groo said:

Later, Joffrey meant an alliance with the Lannisters and the Westerlands. Mace wouldn't have had that on his own either.

Why do the Tyrells need an alliance with the losing Lannisters?

31 minutes ago, Groo said:

Mace's alliances have been with powerful neighbors where mutual support is realistic and adds to their strength.

Mace's alliances were forged in a time of war. These weren't passive pacts, he would have to fight to seat somebody else on the throne. 

The Reach is the most powerful realm it doesn't need to tie itself to somebody's war.

25 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

That would mean another war with Dorne (and look what happened the last time a Tyrell went adventuring in Dorne)

Dorne accepted Joffrey's coronation. Doran isn't going to attack just because Mace replaces Joffrey.

As long as things between KL and Sunspear the same the Martells won;t care who sits on the throne. I am sure they would be happy that the Lannisters got defeated.

I repeat: taking the iron throne is not the best choice but it is better than fighting to put somebody else on it.

25 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The far easier path is to align with Tywin and marry Margaery to Joffrey. In this way, they get a Tyrell heir to the Iron Throne within a year

This is circular reasoning. Without the Tyrells the Iron Throne is meaningless. The Lannisters have nothing to give because they are losing.

By joining the Lannisters the Tyrells are taking on the burden of fighting Joffrey's enemies.

 

After Robert's death the throne's authority became illusionary.

[The hairy bear]

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Mace is an utter fool. We can see that every time he opens his mouth. Lady Olenna is the real power in Highgarden. She makes all the decisions.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that assertion. I think Olenna's open misandry and the show's ridiculous portrayal of Mace is clouding the perception of Mace as a character.

I don't think we'd be able to single out any statement from Mace that can be considered foolish.

And while Olenna is certainly able to exert a significant degree of influence towards his son, it also seems obvious that there will also be times where he won't follow her suggestions.

 

2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Even if you believe the blood argument Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis will still come ahead of Renly.

My point was never that Renly wouldn't be seen as an usurper. Of course he'd be.

My point is that Westerosi nobles would be more predisposed to accept an usurper that comes from House Baratheon (basically a cadet Targaryen branch, with several royal marriages) than one from House Tyrell (which is still widely seen, even in the Reach, as a bunch of upjumped stewards)

2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

I agree that Mace's claim would not go unchallenged, but the same is true for Renly. If you are going to fight for a disputed crown why do it for anybody but yourself?

But Renly at least had the support of two great houses. mace would be alone.

Another thing that you are taking for granted is that Mace wanted to be king himself. I honestly think that this wasn't the case. His main goal was to position his house as the foremost of the great houses, with a close relationship with the crown and worthy of royal marriages. I don't think he's the fool you claim, and he's aware that if someone rises too fast, there's the risk that he falls down just as quickly.

[saltedmalted]

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

My point is that Westerosi nobles would be more predisposed to accept an usurper that comes from House Baratheon

Lannisters will not accept him, Dorne holds no love for the Baratheons.

Starks and Tullies wouldn't accept Renly, neither would the Vale.

This leaves the Stormlands as the only place where Renly can expect loyalty. 

Renly isn't Robert. Ned Stark and Jon Arryn are gone, Hoster Tully is on his deathbed.

Mace joining the STAB alliance made sense when Robert was alive. After Robert's death the throne and Baratheon blood lost most of its power.

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But Renly at least had the support of two great houses. mace would be alone.

Why should Renly be king instead of Mace? Highgarden is more powerful than Storm's End.

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think he's the fool you claim, and he's aware that if someone rises too fast, there's the risk that he falls down just as quickly.

I think Olenna is an overhyped loudmouth, but her opinion about Mace is correct.

 

After Robert's death Mace could have done the following things:

1) Stay in Highgarden, declare for nobody.

Gather your swords if you must. This is roughly what the Vale did. It has vey low risk of going wrong.

2) Declare yourself independent of the Iron Throne.

This choice is riskier compared to 1), but with the STAB alliance in tatters Highgarden cannot be challenged. Making an alliance with Robb Stark is also possible.

3) Declare for Joffrey or Renly

This carries far more danger than 1 or 2, with few upsides.

4) Crown yourself as the new king of the 7K:

Riskiest choice of them all but it has greater rewards than 3. 

 

In my opinion 1 or 2 were the only good choices.

 

[chrisdaw]

Mace is as you say a fool. He wants to climb the Westeros power ladder and doesn't understand the difference between show power and real power. He could be very powerful and influential from HG with limited risk but he lacks the intelligence to exercise his power, his understanding of the world is superficial and so he craves titles and recognitions. Beyond his desire to climb, he is tractable. None of anything is his idea, he's not that smart or capable, his plans are just someone else's plans that they've sold him by explaining how it furthers his own desires.

[Buried Treasure]

15 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

I am not advocating for Mace to go for the throne. In my opinion going for the throne all by himself makes more sense than crowning Renly.

The best move would be to sit tight and let all the rest kill each other.

....

I repeat: taking the iron throne is not the best choice but it is better than fighting to put somebody else on it.

 

Consider that when the Tyrells first backed Reply, it probably wasn't for the Crown.

Renly had to fight the Lannisters. He fled the city to avoid being killed in Cersei's custody, and wouldn't attend Court when summoned on fear of death. It was rebellion or exile for him.

Probably Renly's original intention in calling the banners was to overthrow Cersei and install himself as Joffrey's regent. He'd proposed a similar plan to Ned before leaving the city. He didn't know about the incest & believed Joff to be Robert's heir, and winning custody of him would have neutralised the Lannisters.

Renly did not proclaim himself King until after he had gathered his great army, because that is what made him decide to be king. His success calling the banners got to his head. He practically said as much to Cat - look at how many people are following me, doesn't that make me most worthy to be king?

Backing Renly for Regency was low risk for a lot of potential power. The only enemies is made was the Lannisters. If they lost then it would have been possible to bend the knee and be pardoned, as it was not treason against Joff himself. And if they won, when it came time to call on other regions for fealty and taxes, they would have been able to claim legitimacy and stability as they were ruling through Robert's lawful heir.

[saltedmalted]

26 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

Backing Renly for Regency was low risk for a lot of potential power. The only enemies is made was the Lannisters.

The STAB alliance was shattered by then. There is no benefit in controlling Joffrey.

 

[Buried Treasure]

2 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

The STAB alliance was shattered by then. There is no benefit in controlling Joffrey.

 

That alliance of Houses hadn't been relevant since they put Robert on the throne. What matters is the 15 years of fealty and taxes that the entire kingdom gave to Robert, and would have been expected to owe to his heir.

Renly was only the 2nd king to declare. In the period a Renly regency was possible, the last third of AGOT, Joffrey was widely seen as the legitimate king and expected to reign. The Starks were in rebellion over Ned's capture, but their goal was to secure Ned's release not dethrone Joff. The importance of oaths is a pervasive theme throughout the books, to which itis shown many lords and knights are genuinely committed, and their oaths of fealty to Robert and his heirs has not yet been challenged.

 

Throughout that last third of AGOT, there are various reports of Renly hosting a large army at Bitterbridge. Yet there are no rumours of Renly being crowned until he sent out ravens near the end of the book. The stormlords and Reach- men that flocked to Renly's banner can't have known they were headed to a would-be king, or rumours would have spread.

It was practically a tourney, and most of them probably didn't want to miss out on their generation's Harrenhal, or Woodstock. They probably didn't even consider that they were committing treason against King Joffrey - they were supporting the king's uncle against the king's mother to determine the power dynamics of the new reign. And once Renly did decide to be king and proclaimed himself king, well... there were probably a few doubters but they were already in his army so could hardly ride away.

[saltedmalted]

5 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

What matters is the 15 years of fealty and taxes that the entire kingdom gave to Robert, and would have been expected to owe to his heir.

Renly ran away from KL after the coup, the IT has lost control of Westeros. No authority and no taxes.

5 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

Renly was only the 2nd king to declare. In the period a Renly regency was possible, the last third of AGOT, Joffrey was widely seen as the legitimate king and expected to reign.

I am discussing events after Renly left KL. There will not be a regency.

5 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

The importance of oaths is a pervasive theme throughout the books, to which itis shown many lords and knights are genuinely committed, and their oaths of fealty to Robert and his heirs has not yet been challenged.

Rober's heirs pissed all over those oaths. Lords owe fealty to their LP first. 

5 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

Throughout that last third of AGOT, there are various reports of Renly hosting a large army at Bitterbridge. Yet there are no rumours of Renly being crowned until he sent out ravens near the end of the book.

He wasn't gathering to gain the regency. Cersei knows he was plotting against her, there can be no easy takeover with Renly incharge.

5 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

They probably didn't even consider that they were committing treason against King Joffrey - they were supporting the king's uncle against the king's mother to determine the power dynamics of the new reign.

This isn't realistic. Such a large host does not gather for frivolities. 

Mace should have known better or he was an even bigger fool than I imagine.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Dorne accepted Joffrey's coronation. Doran isn't going to attack just because Mace replaces Joffrey.

As long as things between KL and Sunspear the same the Martells won;t care who sits on the throne. I am sure they would be happy that the Lannisters got defeated.

I repeat: taking the iron throne is not the best choice but it is better than fighting to put somebody else on it.

This is circular reasoning. Without the Tyrells the Iron Throne is meaningless. The Lannisters have nothing to give because they are losing.

By joining the Lannisters the Tyrells are taking on the burden of fighting Joffrey's enemies.

 

After Robert's death the throne's authority became illusionary.

Why wouldn't they accept Joffrey's coronation? They accepted Robert's. And by the time the Lannister-Tyrell alliance was being discussed, the Lannister-Martell alliance was already in place.

Of course they would care if a Tyrell took the Iron Throne. Dorne and the Reach are ancient enemies with centuries of bad blood between them. Marcher houses like the Oakhearts hang tapestries depicting the atrocities committed by Dorne and the revenge revisited upon them. There is no way Sunspear would just meekly give fealty to a Tyrell. But they don't have to attack either. They just declare themselves and independent kingdom once again and say to Mace, come after us, see what happens.

By aligning with the Lannisters and marrying Margaery to Joffrey, they are not putting someone else on the throne, they are putting their own man, or woman. Margaery could produce a brood of heirs within a few years, then kill Joffrey and rule as regent for the next decade or more. And after her will be her son, who, if they are smart, will think of himself as a Tyrell, not a Lannister -- just as Joffrey thinks of himself as a Lannister.

Yes, the Tyrells are in the driver's seat in this alliance -- a fact that is completely beyond Mace's comprehension. The Tyrells have the army; they don't need Tywin in order to smash Stannis at the city. But then we revert back to your original question: why join this alliance? The answer is because Tywin offers the quickest and easiest path to put a Tyrell on the Iron Throne and have it stick across the entire kingdom. Otherwise, they have to fight and die and fight and die and fight and die for years if not decades to achieve the same thing. It took AtC six years to subdue six of the 7K, and he had dragons. Even if the Tyrells defeat the Lannisters in the field, how are they supposed to take Casterly Rock, the Eyrie, Storm's End, Winterfell, Sunspear . . . ? See how quickly their 80k army is reduced to scraps trying to take all these strongholds.

By aligning now, both Tyrell and Lannister can secure most of the kingdom. Between the two of them, they already have the loyalty of Sunspear and most of the stormlords, and we can be sure that Littlefinger is promising the Eyrie as well. That only leaves the riverlands and the north, which they can easily defeat with their superior numbers, plus they have a combined navy that is second to none. Once the realm is secure, the Tyrells can then work to destroy house Lannister from the inside, which in the end leaves them in control of the Iron Throne and the single largest army and navy in the land. Even the Lannister become a client house once again -- and it was Tywin's sudden rise to hegemonic power that they (meaning Lady Olenna) has feared all along because it threatens the hegemony that Highgarden has enjoyed since the Dawn Age.

The throne's authority has always been illusory. Refer to Varys' riddle: power is an illusion; it exists where men think it exists, it's a shadow on the wall. Nobody outside the Reach will think the Mace is the legitimate king because he has no bloodline. Robert and Renly, and Stannis, at least have Targ blood, which was enough after they had taken the throne by conquest with the support of four of the seven great houses. Nobody is going to bend the knee to Mace alone. He must conquer every house, one by one, in order to rule. Aligning with the Lannisters instantly brings more than half the realm to their side with no bloodshed. That is more than enough to secure the kingdom, not just the throne. It's the kingdom that matters.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure I'd agree with that assertion. I think Olenna's open misandry and the show's ridiculous portrayal of Mace is clouding the perception of Mace as a character.

I don't think we'd be able to single out any statement from Mace that can be considered foolish.

And while Olenna is certainly able to exert a significant degree of influence towards his son, it also seems obvious that there will also be times where he won't follow her suggestions.

Really? Nothing Mace said strikes you are foolish? Not even

Quote

"No, it's plain, the boy must abandon the riverlands, join his forces to Roose Bolton's once more, and throw all his strength against Moat Caillen. That's what I would do."

Really Mace? Throw all your forces against one of the most impenetrable structures in the kingdom?

Quote

"And if we accept this alliance?" inquired Lord Mathis Rowan. "What terms does he propose?"

"That we recognize his kingship and grant him everything north of the Neck."

Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky."

"Truly," agreed Mace Tyrell. "That's what I would do. Let King Balon finish the northmen whilst we finish Stannis."

First, here we see Mace doing what he does throughout the book, simply agreeing with the last thing said. What is there in the north that a sane man would want? Oh, I dunno, how about virtually limitless supplies of stone, ore, wood, fur and everything else required to support a medieval army -- not to mention a port on the Narrow Sea that is only a quick sail away from the most prosperous trading city on Esso's west coast, something that neither the Reach nor the Westerland possesses.

And as Tywin points out later, all Balon wants is half the kingdom in exchange for doing what he's already doing, killing northmen.

Quote

"Perhaps you'd best leave the fighting to fighters," said the Lord of Highgarden . . .

. . . who has never won a battle in his life and meekly dipped his banners to Ned Stark despite having the larger army and a Targaryen king at the ready on Dragonstone.

And when he finds out Oberyn Martell is coming to KL:

Quote

How do they come? They have not asked leave to cross my lands."

Duh, you pompous fool, he doesn't need to cross your lands. He's coming up the Boneway, past Blackhaven and through the Kingswood. To cross your lands he's have to go a hundred miles or more out of his way.

And then, of course, he meekly backs down when Tywin tells him to.

And this is just one conversation. Look at him again at Tywin's funeral, blustering and babbling about Garth not become MoC until his mother swoops in and tells him to shut his gob. And at the end of Dance, where he is sitting in his utterly ridiculous hand-shaped chair:

Quote

"Storm's End. He cannot take Storm's End. Not if he were Aegon the Conqueror. And if he does, what of it? Stannis holds it now. Let the castle pass from one pretender to another, why should that trouble us? I shall recapture it after my daughter's innocence is proved."

As Kevan notes right away, you can't recapture something you haven't captured before. Aegon couldn't take it with his dragons, and yet you will this time? And who cares who holds Storm's End? Gee, maybe because it's a massive stronghold and whoever has it is in perfect position to launch an assault against King's Landing?

He would also just steamroll the High Septon and declare Margaery innocent, putting the crown against the faith right when they need the church the most.

And then, tales of Danaerys Targaeryen, "mad as her father" whom Mace went to war to support, with three dragons. But who cares? She's in Essos. Why should she bother with Westeros?

The man is an abject idiot. He does nothing of importance without his mother's permission, particularly when it comes to marriages and alliances. Don't be fooled for a minute by her story of opposing the Renly match and submitting to Mace's insistence. That match was her decision, but it went south so she lies to Sansa to put it all on Mace. Virtually every word out of Lady O's mouth is a lie, including this business about being confused by the "disturbing tales" about Joffrey. She already knows all there is to know about the little lion. She is actually after a very different truth here, about someone she does not know at all.

[The Wolves]

He should have stayed out of the war. His family, daughter, and house and people would have been mostly safe but he got into the war for power and that ugly chair. Mace was stupid. 

[saltedmalted]

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Why wouldn't they accept Joffrey's coronation? They accepted Robert's. And by the time the Lannister-Tyrell alliance was being discussed, the Lannister-Martell alliance was already in place.

Martell-Lannister alliance was supposed to wash out the past, or so the Lannisters believe. Mace should know better than that.

Tyrion's offer was a sign of true desperation, not the making of a great alliance. Dorne has not forgotten Elia.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course they would care if a Tyrell took the Iron Throne. Dorne and the Reach are ancient enemies with centuries of bad blood between them.

You are downplaying Martells hatred of the Lannisters. OTOH you are also creating a feud with Highgarden when it doesn't really exist. 

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There is no way Sunspear would just meekly give fealty to a Tyrell. But they don't have to attack either. They just declare themselves and independent kingdom once again and say to Mace, come after us, see what happens.

Doran did not do that even when Joffrey was getting wrecked by everyone. 

I admit that conquering all parts of Westeros isn't realistic for Mace which is why I don't consider going for the IT a realistic choice.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

By aligning with the Lannisters and marrying Margaery to Joffrey, they are not putting someone else on the throne, they are putting their own man, or woman.

The throne is worthless on its own. Tommen and Joffrey would end up kings of nothing unless Mace intervened.

What can the Lannisters give to his family?

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Margaery could produce a brood of heirs within a few years, then kill Joffrey and rule as regent for the next decade or more. And after her will be her son, who, if they are smart, will think of himself as a Tyrell, not a Lannister -- just as Joffrey thinks of himself as a Lannister.

Why should he help the Lannisters and entangle his house into their feuds? Mace has no problem with the North and the Riverlands.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The answer is because Tywin offers the quickest and easiest path to put a Tyrell on the Iron Throne and have it stick across the entire kingdom.

You keep ignoring that the Iron Throne does not control Westeros. 

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Otherwise, they have to fight and die and fight and die and fight and die for years if not decades to achieve the same thing.

The Lannisters were already fighting an dying. Mace chose to share Joffrey's enemies. 

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

how are they supposed to take Casterly Rock, the Eyrie, Storm's End, Winterfell, Sunspear . . . ? See how quickly their 80k army is reduced to scraps trying to take all these strongholds.

How was Joffrey supposed to "take" the Eyrie, Storm's End, Winterfell, Sunspear?

How will Tywin Lannister's scraps conquer Westeros?

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

By aligning now, both Tyrell and Lannister can secure most of the kingdom.

The Tyrells will have to do most of the conquering, the Lannisters are spent.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Once the realm is secure, the Tyrells can then work to destroy house Lannister from the inside,

The Lannisters are getting destroyed right now. 

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The throne's authority has always been illusory. Refer to Varys' riddle: power is an illusion; it exists where men think it exists,

Yes, and after Robert's death the illusion had been broken. 

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

His family, daughter, and house and people would have been mostly safe but he got into the war for power and that ugly chair. Mace was stupid. 

I won't feel any pity for the misfortune which will befall the Tyrells. They chose their fate.