NBA 2021 - Randle Hearts

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

 The idea of curry guarding jordan or lebron (my two guards) is... Kind of a joke imo.  He's completely overmatched.  

The flipside is you'd build a team of plus defenders around him, which the Warriors did, and his spacing on offense breaks the game and more than make up for his defensive deficiencies, which are largely overstated. He's not a great defender, but he's not terrible either. He holds serve relatively speaking and is the greatest flamethrower ever on offense. I'd put him at PG on an ideal team if LeBron wasn't playing the roll. 

[Maithanet]

33 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I don't think he was a very good shooter then. Not ideal. I think he'd only just started developing his post game then as well? But he was probably still the best individual player then despite that. 

Well yes, Curry is overmatched. But he might make up for it on offense and for everyone other than KD and maybe Bird (not familiar), I'd just play the odds and let them shoot over him. If the others drive by him, the rest of the team rotates to cover. It still exposes them but its not as if the defense collapses. There's still only one ball. 

I'm not saying that you have to have Curry, and am not really interested in an ideal all team time discussion in the first place, but I think you're overly dismissive. Also, 3 points and spacing from that are great and all, but getting someone who could score inside quickly could be better than playing five out.

Lebron shot over 40% from 3 in 2013.  I don't think range is the issue.

As for curry, the team I've put together is designed to have all 5 guys out so there's a clear lane to the basket.  If help comes on a drive, you give up an open 3 with a lethal shooter.  So the idea that curry can't keep his guy in front of him is indeed a very big problem.  I understand the warriors were able to minimize this by having four other plus defenders, but in an all time game, I think defensive weaknesses are going to be exploited.  

I would even go so far as to say that diminishing returns applies more to offense than defense in basketball.  5 great defenders is going to be a lot better than 4 great defenders and 1 mediocre one.  In contrast, 4 great offensive players can carry virtually the entire offensive load so long as the fifth guy isn't completely useless.  

[Proudfeet]

5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Lebron shot over 40% from 3 in 2013.  I don't think range is the issue.

As for curry, the team I've put together is designed to have all 5 guys out so there's a clear lane to the basket.  If help comes on a drive, you give up an open 3 with a lethal shooter.  So the idea that curry can't keep his guy in front of him is indeed a very big problem.  I understand the warriors were able to minimize this by having four other plus defenders, but in an all time game, I think defensive weaknesses are going to be exploited.  

I would even go so far as to say that diminishing returns applies more to offense than defense in basketball.  5 great defenders is going to be a lot better than 4 great defenders and 1 mediocre one.  In contrast, 4 great offensive players can carry virtually the entire offensive load so long as the fifth guy isn't completely useless.  

Huh. I didn't realise he had his career high in percentage then. Possibly corner 3s? I don't have that impression of him. Interesting that it went down steadily after that before it rebounded when it was just starting to rise before that.

I'd play a zone. Even if you're playing five out, you still have to pass the ball to the open guy. As long as you rotate effectively its still doable. I think the difference we have is that you're giving me the impression that defense effectively collapses with Curry in the lineup. I think that it isn't quite that bad and the damage can be limited.

Hey, I'm not the one advocating playing five out with five ball handlers. Putting Curry aside, I think having a Shaq or Yao in there who scores effectively inside is perfectly okay even if they can't chase people around the perimeter.

As an aside, I've never seen Bird or Jordan, but I assume they are perfectly willing and capable at screening. But how's their cutting? My impression of most players that are primary ball handlers in general is that they tend to be passive when off the ball but of course that could also just be energy conservation rather than inability or disinterest.

[DMC]

I'm not sure why there seems to be an assumption here when putting together an all-time team they have to adapt to the 3-point shooting/spacing style of today.  If the competing team had one of the all time bigs - Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Duncan, Olajuwon - a team with Durant/Bird as their "big guys" is going to be just as much at a disadvantage on the flip side (albeit Durant is probably taller than Olajuwon).  I mean, that's effectively the same logic as saying Curry can't guard Jordan.

That being said, any all-time team is really just revolving around putting LeBron and Jordan together - the three you surround them with are just gravy and there are a plethora of legitimate options.  I'd think the more interesting thought exercise is composing two teams and then surrounding each of them with the best options.  Maybe doing a little-mini draft in your head or something.

[DanteGabriel]

17 hours ago, Rhom said:

I love this.  “44 year old Masshole.”  

Gosh I never knew I would find Brad Stevens so relatable.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Proudfeet said:

I think the difference we have is that you're giving me the impression that defense effectively collapses with Curry in the lineup. I think that it isn't quite that bad and the damage can be limited.t.

Note the Warriors' death lineups, which always included Curry, were defensive juggernauts too. Steph is an average defender, not a wet blanket. He just got exposed a lot because literally everyone else on the court with him during their run was a good to elite defender so he was the target of a lot of switches.

[Maithanet]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

I'm not sure why there seems to be an assumption here when putting together an all-time team they have to adapt to the 3-point shooting/spacing style of today.

That being said, any all-time team is really just revolving around putting LeBron and Jordan together - the three you surround them with are just gravy and there are a plethora of legitimate options.  I'd think the more interesting thought exercise is composing two teams and then surrounding each of them with the best options.  Maybe doing a little-mini draft in your head or something.

Yeah, I think a more interesting exercise might be to pick one leader, and then four other guys, with the stipulation that those four cannot have ever been first team all-nba.  So you have jordan plus a bunch of guys like ginobili and rodman, who are great players, but have a few more limitations.  I'm not sure who I'd take for that.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

with the stipulation that those four cannot have ever been first team all-nba.

That would be fun, take some work though to figure out who hasn't been first team all-nba.

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

That would be fun, take some work though to figure out who hasn't been first team all-nba.

Yeah, that's kind of the downside. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

12 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Yeah, I think a more interesting exercise might be to pick one leader, and then four other guys, with the stipulation that those four cannot have ever been first team all-nba.  So you have jordan plus a bunch of guys like ginobili and rodman, who are great players, but have a few more limitations.  I'm not sure who I'd take for that.

Rodman did make 1st team ALL- NBA so he wouldn't work for that example.

It was in the 1991–92 season where Rodman made a remarkable leap in his rebounding, collecting an astounding 18.7 rebounds per game (1,530 in total), winning his first of seven consecutive rebounding crowns, along with scoring 9.8 points per game, and making his first All-NBA Team.

[BigFatCoward]

A quick search discovered an MVP who didn't make all NBA first team (Dave Cowens), you would be pissed off wouldn't you? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

53 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

A quick search discovered an MVP who didn't make all NBA first team (Dave Cowens), you would be pissed off wouldn't you? 

A kicker won MVP in the NFL once, so 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Okay on further look, it seems Rodman was only a reserve on his All Star selections. He was only 1st team for his multiple All-Nba Defense selections.

Splitting hairs possibly, but there's no denying he could be classified as a potent niche or role player within a teams system, which is how he was originally brought up.

He won everywhere he went that's for sure.

[WarGalley]

On 3/20/2021 at 1:30 PM, Maithanet said:

Yeah, I think a more interesting exercise might be to pick one leader, and then four other guys, with the stipulation that those four cannot have ever been first team all-nba.  So you have jordan plus a bunch of guys like ginobili and rodman, who are great players, but have a few more limitations.  I'm not sure who I'd take for that.

That's actually pretty interesting and my first thought was to just think of which teams had dynasties with only 1 all-nba first player. It comes back to the (Durant-less) Warriors if I remember it right as neither Klay nor Green have ever been an all-nba first member (again if you don't count all defensive first nominations like @DireWolfSpirit mentions above). You could do the same with the Jordan Bulls if you swap out Pippen (and again Rodman for defense) and then just plug a similar player profile in (a Kyrie for Pippen might get the job done). I don't know who you would swap Rodman for that has never been all-nba defensive first / defensive MVP.. that's where it gets harder. The Spurs also won a couple(?) of championships inbetween the time David Robinson left and Kawhi joined but then the comparisons start to get really weird given their style of play.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

That's actually pretty interesting and my first thought was to just think of which teams had dynasties with only 1 all-nba first player. It comes back to the (Durant-less) Warriors if I remember it right as neither Klay nor Green have ever been an all-nba first member (again if you don't count all defensive first nominations like @DireWolfSpirit mentions above). You could do the same with the Jordan Bulls if you swap out Pippen (and again Rodman for defense) and then just plug a similar player profile in (a Kyrie for Pippen might get the job done). I don't know who you would swap Rodman for that has never been all-nba defensive first / defensive MVP.. that's where it gets harder. The Spurs also won a couple(?) of championships inbetween the time David Robinson left and Kawhi joined but then the comparisons start to get really weird given their style of play.

Absolutely not, and it's kind of absurd to suggest it. 

[Red Tiger]

13 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

A quick search discovered an MVP who didn't make all NBA first team (Dave Cowens), you would be pissed off wouldn't you? 

Same for Bill Russell. Several times in fact. It's because neither guys were prolific scorers. They whipped the asses of others teams in different ways.

[WarGalley]

52 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Absolutely not, and it's kind of absurd to suggest it. 

Yeah maybe, particularly in trying to fit Kyrie in Pippen's small forward position (and assuming the team plays the triangle offense). But I couldn't think of another player who would fit well playing #2 to Jordan (forgetting Kyrie's ego and public image) while also having never been first team all-nba. 

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

But I couldn't think of another player who would fit well playing #2 to Jordan (forgetting Kyrie's ego and public image) while also having never been first team all-nba. 

So I googled "best small forwards of all time," and here are the top names that never were first team all-nba - Paul Pierce, James Worthy, Adrian Dantley, Alex English, Vince Carter, Carmelo Anthony, Peja Stojakovic.  I'd take any of those over Irving.

[WarGalley]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

So I googled "best small forwards of all time," and here are the top names that never were first team all-nba - Paul Pierce, James Worthy, Adrian Dantley, Alex English, Vince Carter, Carmelo Anthony, Peja Stojakovic.  I'd take any of those over Irving.

A little surprised by Pierce not having 1 all-nba, thought I looked him up. And yeah, I'd probably take most of those now that I look at that list (though I don't know Dantley and English very well).

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

51 minutes ago, DMC said:

So I googled "best small forwards of all time," and here are the top names that never were first team all-nba - Paul Pierce, James Worthy, Adrian Dantley, Alex English, Vince Carter, Carmelo Anthony, Peja Stojakovic.  I'd take any of those over Irving.

Vince Carter could average 100 points a game on the Dreamcast. Just dunk the ball a few times with him then hit a few open threes and he couldn't miss. Ah, the good old days when I was a kid.