NBA 2021 - Randle Hearts

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm sorry, but no, "everyone" doesn't know that.  That's your horseshit deluded opinion.  As for him not understanding "the modern game," I really couldn't give two shits.  Acting like he couldn't figure out how to guard his man because he's out on the perimeter instead of the post is ludicrous.

Just look at him as he aged. Literally just about everyone understood he was fat and not in great basketball shape. Why are you fighting this? Even the window you provided doesn't account for when his weight really ballooned, and that's when he was winning titles, being known as the most unstoppable big in his era. But that same guy isn't running up and down the court or really guarding anyone in the modern game. Like I've said before, his offensive game would be interesting to see, but he would be a problem on the defensive end. Young Shaq at 280-300 would probably overcome the shortcomings of limited bigs in today's era, but let's not acted like the Shaq when we were kids would probably be the same guy today.

Shaq couldn't move at all on the outside, and Wade gives him shit about how they tried to get him to do it, but he was trash at it, yet at times something was better than nothing. Shaq couldn't guard and plus wing today and would be a repeat victim to backdoor cuts. But more importantly, and as an academic I'm surprised this is your take, but do you really not see a problem with someone who has been paid for a decade to talk about basketball and that individual has learned nothing over that time period? At least with Chuck he's kind of laughing at the fact that he is refusing to know more about the game, but Shaq is serious when he talks about doing things exactly like when he played. Why do you think that is the kind of person who can change as the style of play changes when what he has to offer absent change becomes less valuable?

[DMC]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Just look at him as he aged. Literally just about everyone understood he was fat and not in great basketball shape. Why are you fighting this?

His weight gain has already been clearly explained.  Seriously, all you seem to be interested in doing is calling him fat and stupid when he was a professional athlete for 20 years that played more regular season minutes than all but 27 guys in NBA/ABA history.

[Relic]

Shaq would destroy the league. On the other hand he'd get wrecked by high pick and rolls with bigs that can pop 3s.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

15 minutes ago, DMC said:

His weight gain has already been clearly explained.  Seriously, all you seem to be interested in doing is calling him fat and stupid when he was a professional athlete for 20 years that played more regular season minutes than all but 27 guys in NBA/ABA history.

But his weight gain at the time does not fit in any way with today's game, and by his own words he's shown no interest in changing what he did or how he sees the game. That's the point. He may have been the most dominate big over a small period ever at his peak, but his peak was also limited by his own shortcomings (though it's Kobe's fault they lost to the Pistons and he broke that team up far more than Shaq did). I'm not trying to be mean and call him fat and dumb, but why do you think Shaq, given everything we know, as someone who didn't take great care of himself and was completely uninterested in learning as the game changed would have been even remotely the same player now? Where is the slow, super heavy big who can't shoot, can't shoot FTs and is only an okay defender excelling today? Does that player exist right now?

22 minutes ago, Relic said:

Shaq would destroy the league. On the other hand he'd get wrecked by high pick and rolls with bigs that can pop 3s.

Shaq on offense would be hilarious. But he would also be a disaster in the transition game on top of switching and ball movement would wreck him. 

I'm not saying he couldn't play today because he's a historical outlier, but I'm not convinced it would translate anywhere near to the dominance of 20 years ago unless he personally changed a lot.

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But his weight gain at the time does not fit in any way with today's game, and by his own words he's shown no interest in changing what he did or how he sees the game. That's the point.

I get it.  Your "point" is that Shaq is too fat, lazy, and dumb to "adjust" to today's game.  Which is not only absurd but also, well, lazy and dumb.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

I get it.  Your "point" is that Shaq is too fat, lazy, and dumb to "adjust" to today's game.  Which is not only absurd but also, well, lazy and dumb.

Okay, given we can literally point to him not taking care of himself or evening trying to understand the basics of the game as it changes. But he would have been just fine today approaching his craft that way.

And again, I'm not trying to be mean to Shaq. I like him. I think he's one of the nine best basketball players to ever live. But given what we know about his career and mindset, in today's game, would you take him over Giannis or Embiid? Might you even want someone like Bam over him? Shaq is probably the greatest singular force we've seen before Steph is just the way he breaks the game, but his offensive game may not produce the same output to justify the other deficiencies his game would lead to. Just think about him having to switch to an open shooter. You're probably getting an easy shot or a clear chance to draw a foul on him. I can't see that being sustainable, even if he could average 35/15 in which fouls weren't an issue, and I say that recognizing that he was a decent passer for his player type so more shooters in today's mold could make the offense even that much more better.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Okay, given we can literally point to him not taking care of himself or evening trying to understand the basics of the game as it changes.

The first one isn't true and the second one you're basing off his post-career statements as a TV analyst - in which his primary role is to entertain.

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But given what we know about his career and mindset, in today's game, would you take him over Giannis or Embiid? Might you even want someone like Bam over him?

Yes, yes, and yes.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

The first one isn't true and the second one you're basing off his post-career statements as a TV analyst - in which his primary role is to entertain.

The first one is true because he literally got bloated and fat before our eyes. Why are you fighting this? And to the second point, yes his job is to entertain, but shouldn't he know basic defensive schemes? That have been used for several years now? He was clueless about them. Provides an interesting comparison to who becomes popular in today's political media. 

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Yes, yes, and yes.

Why? Shaq could only guard one position. Embiid can't guard every position, but he's one of the five best defenders in the game and his overall game fits today better. Giannis is an obvious upgrade in today's game. Bam less so, but he fits the mold of what you want right now far more than Shaq. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The first one is true because he literally got bloated and fat before our eyes. Why are you fighting this?

Because his weight gain has already been clearly explained.

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Why?

Because Shaq was obviously better than Embiid and Adebayo.  I'll take him over Giannis too until the later can at least make it to the finals.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

Because his weight gain has already been clearly explained.

WTF, no it hasn't. Damn near every first hand account I've ever heard about his physical shape is that he took poor care of himself and it started to show in the early 2000's and became more abundantly clear as his decline became obvious for everyone to see. It had long ceased been about bulking up and he was obviously becoming noticeably overweight. I don't get why you're denying this. Shaq was fucking awesome. I'd be deeply curious what he would be like today, but only if we got young Shaq and he learned how to shoot just a little bit. Championship where he was starting to get out of shape might be really sad today, given what we saw 20 years ago.

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Because Shaq was obviously better than Embiid and Adebayo.  I'll take him over Giannis too until the later can at least make it to the finals

Better in his era, but you need bigs that can move and adjust to today's game while providing more spacing. IIRC, last year Giannis scored as efficiently as Shaq did, plus he could shoot FTs and a bit from three, while being a better passer and defender, and the rebounding gap was small. I don't know the exact stats on Embiid, but he's have a similarly elite year in which he could be both DPOY and MVP. Bam is obviously a step below, but that kid of player who is a natural 4/5 who can switch out and guard anyone on the wing, that has so much value today. 

Shaq is one of the greatest players ever and I enjoyed watching him even if it came at the expense of my Wolves. But Shaq is a complicated figure to place into today's game and it's fair to point out how he let himself go and how he hasn't invested the time to learn about the game as it has changed.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I don't get why you're denying this.

I don't get why you keep saying things that are obviously wrong, but what are you gonna do?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

42 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't get why you keep saying things that are obviously wrong, but what are you gonna do?

Eat one of Shaq's left over burgers? I don't eat fast food much these days, but if so I hope he went to Five Guys and stopped at White Castle to pick up some good French fries.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Eat one of Shaq's left over burgers?

It's really pathetic how much you want to fat shame Shaq.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's really pathetic how much you want to fat shame Shaq.

If Shaq had taken real care of himself, does he have more than four rings?

That's a question his own teammates wondered about him. I'm not fat shaming him. Frankly Shaq at his biggest was the most fun version of himself. It was hilarious watching him destroy people like a bowling ball moving around marbles. He was Godzilla proving how easy it was for him to crush King Kong. But the point remains he could have been even greater if he worked on some technical things and took better care of himself. I still don't think anyone actually questions that. while also agreeing that he's a top 10 player of all-time. 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm not fat shaming him.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Please explain how a 350 pound Shaq defends in today's game and doesn't get run off of the court? Quit leaning on this silly crutch and address the actual issue. Especially when he has demonstrated no understanding of the modern game. Make an actual argument why you could build a team around him, otherwise stop with this sad argument. Shaq got really out of shape. Nobody denies this. Yet in his prime it actually aided him for a time. But Shaq, by his own statements, has shown that he hasn't learned a lot about the game since he's played and thinks you still build a team around, well, him. Is that actually a good idea? I don't know many people who would do that. If you want to build around a big today you need that player to do a myriad of things that Shaq couldn't do and never really wanted to do, and he doesn't think today's bigs need to do those things either. Good luck with that. It's worked exactly how many times since when? That's not fat shaming, just pointing out you really can't run a team today with a guy of that size if he also isn't going to be able to shoot, ball handle or do anything other than score five feet inside the basket while his defensive pluses get largely erased today and. 

Like seriously, please, explain how Shaq just runs with players today. Guys from his era admit they couldn't move at the pace of today's game ((just see the scores and adjusted pace of play) while also saying they'd fuck dudes from today up if they played in the 80's to mid 90's). Shaq is the most dominate big of his era, maybe ever. That doesn't change the fact that a player in his fashion today is kind of a relic. Bigs that are slow and can't defend multiple positions are not what teams want.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Make an actual argument why you could build a team around him, otherwise stop with this sad argument.

An emoji isn't an argument.  But, you want sad arguments?  How about your repeated one that he "let himself go" and then proceeded to win four rings in seven years.  That's not only sad, it's absurd on its face.  Your repeated argument that he doesn't "understand the modern game?"  Would be very funny if it wasn't so sad.  Dude retired ten years ago, stop acting like the game would be foreign to him because players take a lot more 3s these days.  Steve Kerr traded for him to play with Steve Nash's Suns when he was 35 for fuck's sake.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

36 minutes ago, DMC said:

An emoji isn't an argument.  But, you want sad arguments?  How about your repeated one that he "let himself go" and then proceeded to win four rings in seven years.  That's not only sad, it's absurd on its face.  Y

He let himself go during the Lakers run, which wasn't in your time your time frame, and frankly he wasn't very good by the time he won a title with the Heat. Dallas played terrible defense, doubled him, let Wade cook and honestly the calls in that serious overall were pretty questionable.

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Your repeated argument that he doesn't "understand the modern game?"  Would be very funny if it wasn't so sad.  Dude retired ten years ago, stop acting like the game would be foreign to him because players take a lot more 3s these days.  Steve Kerr traded for him to play with Steve Nash's Suns when he was 35 for fuck's sake.

He didn't understand very basic defensive concepts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5PiPzje7k

ETA: You think I'm calling Shaq dumb, look at Parker as she tries to explain simple things to him.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

He let himself go during the Lakers run

Right, he "let himself go" then went on to win four titles, an MVP, three finals MVPs, seven straight all-NBA first teams, and three all-defensive second teams.  Which is why your argument is absurd on its face.

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

He didn't understand very basic defensive concepts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5PiPzje7k

I don't give a shit what he said on NBA on TNT.  And you seem to be under the impression the pick and roll was invented over the past decade, which is a ridiculously pathetic argument.

[Proudfeet]

12 hours ago, Maithanet said:

The problem is defense.  Guys aren't just going to come to Shaq and grind with him under the basket anymore.  What is he going to do when he is playing the Lakers and he has to go out to the perimeter to cover Davis and Gasol?  Can he do it, or are those guys going to be getting uncontested 3s?  If he does come out, will he give up uncontested layups on the pick and roll?  I'm fairly sure that Shaq would get abused on defense.  There's a reason that super powerful big men have faded away in the NBA.  Now, would that make up for the offensive success he'd have?  I don't know.  I'm sure he'd still be very good, but I'm not sure he could win a championship anymore, even if he did have a Top 10 player as a wingman. 

EDIT:  Speaking purely DEFENSIVELY is Shaq really any better than Roy Hibbert?  I'm not sure, neither of them are any good at changing direction in space.  Offensively it's no comparison (obviously). 

Play zone and switch? Trade buckets? Its Davis and Gasol. Not Lillard and Curry. They aren't pulling up from half court. Brook Lopez isn't terrorising teams. Its Giannis who scores inside from the space Lopez vacates. 

Have you even seen Marc play recently? He's slow as shit too. Can you expect him to go out and cover himself and Davis? He's able to get by with his game sense, hedging between the rim and the shooter, with his team also covering for him, but that's part of the modern game. He can't do everything. And that's the same even for agile bigs like Davis and Gobert. It feels like you're applying a double standard here. Putting Shaq aside, who can meet your requirements of defending the three and the rim at the same time alone? Where's the other defender in the pick and roll?

I think Hibbert's rapid decline is more mental than anything else. He was doing poorly against all teams within the season from what I recall. That's not teams figuring him out. That's him collapsing. Not sure how Shaq compares regardless. Only ever seen Shaq at the tail end of his career.