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jamesmustain

Robb's best option???

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I suspect that Robb did not really have any good choices left. After all he did not have enough men left to defend Riverlands and so his best chance would have been what he tried to do. Or running back to North and trying to secure the North. But we all know what happened to him at the Twins.

In theory he might have saved his life by leaving his army behind and running to North either via ship from Seaguard or via Neck with help of house Reed. But even in those cases he would have too few men left to protect him and so he would lived only some time longer. Or I assume that he would have been killed anyway either by Ironborn or alliance of Bolton/Dustin/Ryswell.

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Surrender was Robb's only choice at that point, if he wanted to come out of the war alive. He was never going to beat House Lannister, House Tyrell and the Iron Born, all at the same time.

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By this time it's too late isn't it?

What if he personally left with the Myraham and made his way to Whiteharbour, could he have raised another force ( a year or so later) and sorted out the north while his River Lords held in the Riverlands (for years)? Could he have hired a free company or two to return with? Honestly he was done by this point, if it wasn't Jamie it was the Karstarks and if it wasn't the Karstarks it was the Westerling marriage. How rotten was Roose and when did he flip? Even if Robb had managed to sidestep the Red Wedding he still had a traitor in his councils... 

 

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If you want to be harsh then Robb was already in deep trouble the moment he accepted being king of the Riverlands. The Riverlands are surrounded by the Vale, the Crownlands, the Reach, and the Westerlands. Whoever sits the Iron Throne is eventually going to crush an independent Riverlands. With the geography of the Neck, the North could attempt to be independent but not the Riverlands.

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29 minutes ago, Groo said:

If you want to be harsh then Robb was already in deep trouble the moment he accepted being king of the Riverlands. The Riverlands are surrounded by the Vale, the Crownlands, the Reach, and the Westerlands. Whoever sits the Iron Throne is eventually going to crush an independent Riverlands. With the geography of the Neck, the North could attempt to be independent but not the Riverlands.

Thank you, Greatjon! 

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His chances to work out a deal would have been better if he had not been declared "King In The North."  Theon caused a lot of damage to the Starks and the north.  The Starks would have to fight just to get home 

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4 hours ago, Groo said:

Whoever sits the Iron Throne is eventually going to crush an independent Riverlands.

If ASoIaF were realistic then the Iron Throne would have lost all power by the beginning of ACoK.

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Posted (edited)

1. Return North and fortify Moat Cailin.

2. Have Lysa Tully assassinated without any link to the North being behind it. With her removed, the Vale would almost certainly form an alliance with the North.

3. Form an alliance with Dorne in mutual hatred of the Tyrells and Lannisters.

With these three unassailable kingdoms in alliance, the Iron Throne would not be able to afford the immense cost of conquering them all.

Meanwhile, the Vale and North could provide ongoing support to the Riverlands in their continuing resistance to the Iron Throne. 

Over time the central alliance of the Lannisters, Tyrells and Stormlords would have no choice but to give up their attempts at conquest.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Form an alliance with Dorne in mutual hatred of the Tyrells and Lannisters.

 

Doran will act only if the Lannisters are on their last legs.

 

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Robb's best option was probably to do what he did: try to recover the North asap, and entrench himself on a defensive position waiting for the Tyrell-Lannister alliance to break, If not for the Frey treachery, Robb would still be alive and with a very good bargaining position after Joffrey's death and the arrival of the Golden Company.

If only he hadn't trusted the the Freys, he'd be alive and kicking.

13 hours ago, Groo said:

If you want to be harsh then Robb was already in deep trouble the moment he accepted being king of the Riverlands. The Riverlands are surrounded by the Vale, the Crownlands, the Reach, and the Westerlands. Whoever sits the Iron Throne is eventually going to crush an independent Riverlands. With the geography of the Neck, the North could attempt to be independent but not the Riverlands.

To be fair, at the time Robb was crowned it seemed a good bet to assume that the Vale and the Iron Islands would join him. That is an area with enough strength to resist attacks from the Southern kingdoms, specially if Dorne remains neutral.

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think that accepting the crown was such a bad move by Robb. It's not like if either Stannis or Renly prevail, he couldn't do as Torrhen did and surrender his crown.

 

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39 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think that accepting the crown was such a bad move by Robb. It's not like if either Stannis or Renly prevail, he couldn't do as Torrhen did and surrender his crown.

 

After the Greatjon had shouted 'King in the North' I don't even know how Robb could have not accepted the crown. That is, I literally cannot envision how he says no at the gathering. He was made king by acclaim. 

 

If he had decided to back another king earlier in the council, then his only option was Renly. He wouldn't back Joff after Ned's death, and didn't know Stannis was going to declare. If Robb had called Renly his king, I think the war would have continued on largely similar lines. They would have exchanged ravens and Cat would have gotten a warmer welcome at Bitterbridge, but Robb would still have had the same military reasons to go West, and Stannis would have still murdered Renly.

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9 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

After the Greatjon had shouted 'King in the North' I don't even know how Robb could have not accepted the crown. That is, I literally cannot envision how he says no at the gathering. He was made king by acclaim. 

 

If he had decided to back another king earlier in the council, then his only option was Renly. He wouldn't back Joff after Ned's death, and didn't know Stannis was going to declare. If Robb had called Renly his king, I think the war would have continued on largely similar lines. They would have exchanged ravens and Cat would have gotten a warmer welcome at Bitterbridge, but Robb would still have had the same military reasons to go West, and Stannis would have still murdered Renly.

The difference there would be Cat witnessing the murder or not, cause of she did, things would be the same, but if she didn't, Robb's army would march on KL with Stannis and the city might have fell before Tywin arrives.

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31 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

After the Greatjon had shouted 'King in the North' I don't even know how Robb could have not accepted the crown.

He could have simply refused.

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16 hours ago, Groo said:

If you want to be harsh then Robb was already in deep trouble the moment he accepted being king of the Riverlands. The Riverlands are surrounded by the Vale, the Crownlands, the Reach, and the Westerlands. Whoever sits the Iron Throne is eventually going to crush an independent Riverlands. With the geography of the Neck, the North could attempt to be independent but not the Riverlands.

Agreed 

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5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Robb's best option was probably to do what he did: try to recover the North asap, and entrench himself on a defensive position waiting for the Tyrell-Lannister alliance to break, If not for the Frey treachery, Robb would still be alive and with a very good bargaining position after Joffrey's death and the arrival of the Golden Company.

If only he hadn't trusted the the Freys, he'd be alive and kicking.

To be fair, at the time Robb was crowned it seemed a good bet to assume that the Vale and the Iron Islands would join him. That is an area with enough strength to resist attacks from the Southern kingdoms, specially if Dorne remains neutral.

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think that accepting the crown was such a bad move by Robb. It's not like if either Stannis or Renly prevail, he couldn't do as Torrhen did and surrender his crown.

 

I agree that the Vale on their side would have changed things and normally they would have good reason to expect the daughter of Hoster Tully to join their cause. The problem is the Blackfish had already quit the Vale in disgust because Lysa wouldn't support her family and Catelyn couldn't get her to do it either. They were surprised and confused but before Robb was crowned they already knew the Vale wasn't on their side.

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13 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

1. Return North and fortify Moat Cailin.

2. Have Lysa Tully assassinated without any link to the North being behind it. With her removed, the Vale would almost certainly form an alliance with the North.

3. Form an alliance with Dorne in mutual hatred of the Tyrells and Lannisters.

With these three unassailable kingdoms in alliance, the Iron Throne would not be able to afford the immense cost of conquering them all.

Meanwhile, the Vale and North could provide ongoing support to the Riverlands in their continuing resistance to the Iron Throne. 

Over time the central alliance of the Lannisters, Tyrells and Stormlords would have no choice but to give up their attempts at conquest.

This is pretty much it. He needed to go on a defensive strategy in the Riverlands and perhaps try to conserve his stenght and ultimatley withdraw. If his armies are behind Moat Cailin the crown can't really get him.

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1 hour ago, Groo said:

I agree that the Vale on their side would have changed things and normally they would have good reason to expect the daughter of Hoster Tully to join their cause. The problem is the Blackfish had already quit the Vale in disgust because Lysa wouldn't support her family and Catelyn couldn't get her to do it either. They were surprised and confused but before Robb was crowned they already knew the Vale wasn't on their side.

But also not on KL side. 

Robb lost because he was murdered by Walder (and a little bit Ramsay)  and his war only died with him. Lannister, Tyrell, Stannis on Blackwater, meaningless. Sure lots of the Riverlands were on fire, but so was the western and crownlands

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19 minutes ago, Darzin said:

This is pretty much it. He needed to go on a defensive strategy in the Riverlands and perhaps try to conserve his stenght and ultimatley withdraw. If his armies are behind Moat Cailin the crown can't really get him.

The RL were pretty much toast when the Tyrells signed on. Even if the Vale came into the fold and Roose / Walder don't betray him, realistically Robb is looking down the barrel of of 100K strong coalition versus 40-45k. He'd have no way to keep the RL, makes a lot more sense to retreat behind the bloody gate and MC. The only thing preventing a naval incursion of either land is the ersatz navies -- we have no idea of the Vale naval power -- and Stannis holding DS. It's more or less a bluffing game until Robb and / or the Vale negotiates a surrender and bends the knee to Joffrey / Tommen.

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