Covid-19 #27: A Handful of Stars, A Fistful of Dollars

[Fragile Bird]

9 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

You are right, so while the EU countries only vaccinated younger people the UK vaccinated older people and younger people. But it is still easier to find a rare side effect which is only prevalent in younger people  in the first case (when the numbers are not diluted with old people).

Still I am also wondering - the UK had so many vaccinations they must have seen something?  Either the EMA investigation finds out that everything is fine or if not -the UK regulators should check again more closely and answer some questions.

Didn’t someone upthread say 12 people who got the AZ vaccine got blood clots and 15 who got Pfizer got blood clots? But there were no details about what kind of blood clots.

Canada is administering 500,000 AZ vaccines over the next two weeks, but mainly to people between 60 and 64. (Because 300k of the doses expire on April 2). We’ll know in a month if there’s a problem with blood clots. I haven’t seen any reports from the other two vaccines yet.

Eta: just after I posted a news report came on saying the regulators in Canada have decided the AZ vaccine can be administered to people ove 65.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

37 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Surely the UK vaccinated the old first together with medical staff, did they not? I saw lots of pictures of young nurses getting vaccinated. In fact wasn’t it a young nurse who caused the first controversy, by fainting? 

And people here have talked about spouses and family members in medical fields getting vaccinated. The question is, did they get Pfizer?

most of the very first people vaccinated was the front line medical staff (and some elderly who could get to the hospital vaccination centres) and that was with Pfizer as at the time it was the only one available.  I think it was a week or two after that AZ was approved.  yes we were still doing medical staff but I think most had been done by then,  and they were mostly getting done in large centres which where more likely to use Pfizer due to the batch sizes and freezers needed.

[Which Tyler]

31 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

most of the very first people vaccinated was the front line medical staff

Not true. The very first people vaccinated were care home residents, then staff, not frontline medical staff. Medical staff were in the 2nd priority group (along with over 80s)

AZ Approved in the UK 29th December

Medical staff in general (rather than nursing homes) started being vaccinated properly around 11th January

As of March, UK still hasn't finished vaccinating medical staff

Medical staff being vaccinated based on profession rather than age are being done in the big centres, not GP practices - I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but locally there is 1 doing Pfizer and 4 doing AZ. When I started looking in mid-January, it was 1 and 3.

[ljkeane]

20 minutes ago, Filippa Eilhart said:

one question is: is the UK lumping all blood clots in one category?

No. I posted it before but all the potential adverse reactions reported are published. Here's the list for Astrazeneca and the list for Pfizer.

[Filippa Eilhart]

4 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

No. I posted it before but all the potential adverse reactions reported are published. Here's the list for Astrazeneca and the list for Pfizer.

Thanks.

So the UK had only 3 cases overall of Cerebral venous sinus thrombosis for AZ (1 for Pfizer), while Germany had 7 in a much smaller number of people vaccinated.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

33 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Not true. The very first people vaccinated were care home residents, then staff, not frontline medical staff. Medical staff were in the 2nd priority group (along with over 80s)

AZ Approved in the UK 29th December

Medical staff in general (rather than nursing homes) started being vaccinated properly around 11th January

As of March, UK still hasn't finished vaccinating medical staff

Medical staff being vaccinated based on profession rather than age are being done in the big centres, not GP practices - I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but locally there is 1 doing Pfizer and 4 doing AZ. When I started looking in mid-January, it was 1 and 3.

I know that was what was planned, but I remember there was lots of talk on the News that at first home care residents where skipped as they could not get the Pfizer to the care homes and use the full batches.  The first vaccination centres where run in hospitals so unless they could get the care home residents to the hospitals they where not actually done first.

My SIL a London Ambulance Technician was given her 1st dose on the 22nd December

[Luzifer's right hand]

One year ago the first lockdown started here in Austria. 

Now it looks like the 3rd wave is happening. 

Most people in retirement homes are fully vaccinated now though. 

[Clueless Northman]

38 minutes ago, Filippa Eilhart said:

So the UK had only 3 cases overall of Cerebral venous sinus thrombosis for AZ (1 for Pfizer), while Germany had 7 in a much smaller number of people vaccinated.

Oh, it's that kind of thrombosis? I was expecting other blood clots. Only time I ever took antibiotics was when I had a very nasty case of staphylococcus in the nose, and my doctor freaked out because, even though odds were very low, there was a risk of sinus infection causing cerebral thrombosis. Since it happened shortly after vaccination, I suppose there's some possible correlation for these EU cases, and I also suspect they made sure these weren't caused by any nasal/sinus infections.

[Filippa Eilhart]

14 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

Oh, it's that kind of thrombosis? I was expecting other blood clots. Only time I ever took antibiotics was when I had a very nasty case of staphylococcus in the nose, and my doctor freaked out because, even though odds were very low, there was a risk of sinus infection causing cerebral thrombosis. Since it happened shortly after vaccination, I suppose there's some possible correlation for these EU cases, and I also suspect they made sure these weren't caused by any nasal/sinus infections.

I think other European countries reported other kinds of thrombosis, it's just Germany where this particular kind happened in such extreme.

[rotting sea cow]

13 minutes ago, Filippa Eilhart said:

I think other European countries reported other kinds of thrombosis, it's just Germany where this particular kind happened in such extreme.

No. Norway, Denmark, Austria, Italy and maybe others reported very similar suspicious cases. But, it's true, so far I've only seen a diagnostic in the German Paul-Ehrlich Institut's statement.

[Padraig]

We are trying to square a circle and circle a square at the same time.  You'd go crazy overthinking it.  The UK data (and there is more of that) shows there is no issue at all.  Other countries data show there is something unusual going on. 

Based on that, medical people conclude that it is very likely to be a very strange coincidence.  But it is still very weird.  And weird is not something you want to associate with a huge vaccine program.

Separately, I was reading this article and I was trying to understand why they were making it sound like J&J were only picking their factory now in Europe. :)

[ljkeane]

8 minutes ago, Padraig said:

Separately, I was reading this article and I was trying to understand why they were making it sound like J&J were only picking their factory now in Europe. :)

It's just for the fill and finish part of production apparently.

ETA: Which they were going to have to do in the US before this deal it seems so it should be more efficient than shipping it back and forth across the Atlantic.

[JoannaL]

23 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

It's just for the fill and finish part of production apparently.

ETA: Which they were going to have to do in the US before this deal it seems so it should be more efficient than shipping it back and forth across the Atlantic.

No, there were different reasons. There is the US export stopp and so it was dangerous to export the vaccine to the US for fill-up. The EU tried - until last week, I think- to get an agreement that they would get their vaccine back if it was shipped to the US for fill-up. The US denied. so now they decided to use a fill-up possibility here. Because of these problems with the (rather unreasonable) US the J&J vaccine will hit the EU market three weeks later than planned (with the shipping back and forth it would have been quicker). Thats bad - but it would have been much worse if we couldnt get it back out of the US.

As the article says: "Vaccine production in Europe, and in Germany, increases delivery security"

May I add that I think that the world has gone completely  mad.

[Fragile Bird]

The US would not agree in advance that it wouldn’t seize J&J vaccine made in Europe that was being “fill and finished” in the US?

It’s just endless, isn’t it?

I wonder if any vaccine at all will leave the US this year.

[Fragile Bird]

A couple of days ago I asked a question about the use of the term “Phase 2/3” which no one took up. I now have my answer with regard to Canadian company Medicago’s vaccine. They have just announced they will be starting their Phase 3, looking for 30,000 volunteers in 11 countries.

Their Phase 1 showed 100% of test subjects developed antibodies. Their Phase 2 results will be published in mid-April.

If all goes well, they expect vaccine will be administered before year end.

Eta: they were granted emergency authorization by the FDA to start Phase 3 on Feb. 17. They’ll start with healthy adults and then add people over 65 and people with co-morbidities later. They are also developing a vaccine to address variants.

[rotting sea cow]

10 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

The US would not agree in advance that it wouldn’t seize J&J vaccine made in Europe that was being “fill and finished” in the US?

It’s just endless, isn’t it?

At the same time you have this: Kremlin says pressure on countries to reject Russia's Sputnik V vaccine is unprecedented (reuters) but it's a bit of controversy in Brazil.

Related: Pfizer accused of ‘bullying’ Latin American countries during vaccine negotiations and there are similar reports regarding Johnson&Johnson.

 

10 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I wonder if any vaccine at all will leave the US this year

Yes, they will. By the millions starting from the end of May. At least it's what I think.

[Fragile Bird]

Yes, I remember your previous post, but I think you are overly optimistic. I don’t think anything will leave the US for months, maybe until next year. Certainly not after May.

I hope you are right and I am wrong.

[Clueless Northman]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

The US would not agree in advance that it wouldn’t seize J&J vaccine made in Europe that was being “fill and finished” in the US?

That would be a crazy move. Not unexpected, were Trump still in charge. But if Biden administration was stupid enough to do something like this... Gee, and some Western media and pundits are freaking out that Russia offering Sputnik to EU countries is them bad Russkies trying to divide the West. As if that was the biggest threat. Having the US seize mios of vaccines that were produced in Europe and bound to go back there would be PR gold for Moscow and Beijing, way more than anything they could ever do.

As for J/J production, I suppose it's overall better to have the whole production in Europe. It causes frustrating delays right now, but in the long run, it should reduce the production time a bit.

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, Clueless Northman said:

As for J/J production, I suppose it's overall better to have the whole production in Europe

Yes.  Probably for the best.  Thanks Joanna and ljkeane for clarifying what the factory was for. 

It is very disappointing that an accord couldn't be reached between the EU and US.  I'm trying to rationalise how you could justify treating an "ally" in this way.  I see some logic for the AZ move (even if I would have preferred a different solution).   Even the possible hoarding of ingredients makes sense to a degree, but this seems much more egregious.  Seizing vaccine?  (I suppose you could suggest that Italy did the same to Australia but I would argue that was different).

It left the EU with no real choice.

Although I suppose there will be no more pressure on Biden to give us those AZ vaccines now!  Yay.  Maybe Canada will be lucky.  But I doubt it.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Related: Pfizer accused of ‘bullying’ Latin American countries during vaccine negotiations and there are similar reports regarding Johnson&Johnson.

That was rather pointed.  Pfizer certainly has a big advantage right now.  And that is the advantage of more vaccines coming on line.  I should have clarified that the Italian option I mentioned last week was the 9th option that the EU was in active negotiations with (or had already concluded discussions with).  Not that there was only 9 viable candidates right now (and i'm ignoring Sputnik and the Chinese options in that count).  Some of those 9 will probably end up as regional options.  I know Curevac said it wouldn't try to break into the US market, given the level of saturation there now.   But yes, I'm sure there are dozens of other vaccines also trying to break out.

So Fragile Bird, Medicago will hopefully be a great option for Canada but we may never see it on this side of the water (except if it works better than most).

Edited to give link as background.

[Kalbear]

Europe, I love you and your eurocommie ways, but get your shit together