Jump to content
Angel Eyes

Prediction: Jaime’s fate

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

So this grew out of a post on the Comeuppance for Jaime and Cersei thread, with addendums from the Jaime’s Hand thread:

  • Jaime’s arc revolves around oaths, making, breaking, and keeping oaths. For example he’s disliked in-universe for breaking his Kingsguard oath by killing the Mad King to save King’s Landing, upholding his oath as a knight to protect the innocent. Jaime muses about the various oaths made by knights and how they conflict with each other.
  • As of ADWD, Jaime is with Brienne and they are heading towards Lady Stoneheart. Lady Stoneheart, as Catelyn, made Jaime promise to bring Sansa and Arya back from King’s Landing, a promise she believes he broke because the sword Brienne carries is made from Ice, Ned Stark’s sword.
  • Brienne swore to prove her loyalty to Lady Stoneheart by killing Jaime.
  • Logical result: Because of the promise Lady Stoneheart believes he broke, the promise Brienne made to Lady Stoneheart, the newfound sense of honor Jaime has, his trust in Brienne, the fact that he can’t fight his way out of a problem due to the loss of his hand, and GRRM’s tendency to show the consequences of one’s actions since he’s not one for miracles, Jaime will receive a short drop and a sudden stop. And so ends the short, undistinguished career of Ser Jaime Lannister the Kingslayer.
Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect you are right, although I will miss Jaime's chapters.  He and Brienne have had some of the most interesting reading for me as they have changed over the course of the books.  As well as the questions of oaths you raised, they are both people who don't fit into the roles their society expects of them.  Jaime acts like a second son or cousin of a great lord, not the first son expected to inherit the responsibilities as well as privileges of a great lord; and Brienne of course is expected to be beautiful and gentle and fit the ideal of a woman in Westerosi society.

(Tyrion and Cersei also fit this picture as well, in that they, unlike Jaime, wish to have the power and responsibilities, but accidents of birth have left them unable to fulfill those roles.  In Cersei's case, she doesn't have the abilities she thinks she has either.)

One of the ironies of Jaime's story is that, of all the terrible things he has done that he knows people should condemn him for, he is actually known for the Kingslaying.  For Jaime (and for us as readers with more modern perspectives and having the benefit of seeing through Jaime's memories the atrocities Aerys committed and was going to commit) that is one of his lesser crimes.

But back to your original point: from what we know of Jaime and Stoneheart, I can't really see how he wouldn't swing.  GRRM of course can deliver us a surprise which would convince us otherwise, but from what we know at the moment, I think it would feel a weak cop out if it doesn't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt it. It would feel very underwhelming to me, especially given his more recent growth.

I believe Stoneheart intends to honor Robbs last wish and crown Jon Snow as King in the North. Part of that is that she needs some way to make the nights watch release Jon from his vows. I believe she will make Jaime take the black in exchange for Jon's release. Coincidentally she likely also power to resurrect Jon which is handy given his current predicament.

So I think his fate is to be the 1000th commander of the nights watch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Makk said:

I doubt it. It would feel very underwhelming to me, especially given his more recent growth.

I believe Stoneheart intends to honor Robbs last wish and crown Jon Snow as King in the North. Part of that is that she needs some way to make the nights watch release Jon from his vows. I believe she will make Jaime take the black in exchange for Jon's release. Coincidentally she likely also power to resurrect Jon which is handy given his current predicament.

So I think his fate is to be the 1000th commander of the nights watch.

Well it isn't like the rug hasn't been pulled out from under us before, multiple times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think some readers see GRRM's "actions must have consequences" routine as a hard and fast rule. But he seems to treat it as more of a literary guideline to make his world feel more lived in and resonant. There are a few times when characters did not experience the logical end points of their actions. Danaerys should have been sent back to the Dosh Khaleen, but a magical deus ex machina saved her in the form of dragons. Tyrion spent a lot of time in ACoK slapping Joffrey around, making enemies of Pycelle and members of the Kingsguard and threatening Cersei. It looked like his trail in ASoS was his comeuppance for all of that, but Jaime saved him from the chopping block. 

There are a few reasons to think Jaime's story doesn't end with Lady Stoneheart killing him. For one thing, Brienne's oath to Catelyn included a provision that Cat would never ask Brienne to dishonor herself. Wouldn't Brienne leading a friend to his death bring dishonor to Brienne? It's a loophole that could be used to save Jaime's life. Also, Jaime has unfinished business with Cersei and Tyrion. Ending his story so quickly in Winds leaves a few story threads unresolved, which doesn't seem George's style. 

Jaime has more story left. Killing him off so quickly in Winds would register as more of a cop out than a resolution of a character ark. This is a story, after all. George has been known to kill off his characters mercilessly, but usually only when they have reached the literary end of the line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 3/19/2021 at 2:43 PM, Nathan Stark said:

I think some readers see GRRM's "actions must have consequences" routine as a hard and fast rule. But he seems to treat it as more of a literary guideline to make his world feel more lived in and resonant. There are a few times when characters did not experience the logical end points of their actions. Danaerys should have been sent back to the Dosh Khaleen, but a magical deus ex machina saved her in the form of dragons. Tyrion spent a lot of time in ACoK slapping Joffrey around, making enemies of Pycelle and members of the Kingsguard and threatening Cersei. It looked like his trail in ASoS was his comeuppance for all of that, but Jaime saved him from the chopping block. 

There are a few reasons to think Jaime's story doesn't end with Lady Stoneheart killing him. For one thing, Brienne's oath to Catelyn included a provision that Cat would never ask Brienne to dishonor herself. Wouldn't Brienne leading a friend to his death bring dishonor to Brienne? It's a loophole that could be used to save Jaime's life. Also, Jaime has unfinished business with Cersei and Tyrion. Ending his story so quickly in Winds leaves a few story threads unresolved, which doesn't seem George's style. 

Jaime has more story left. Killing him off so quickly in Winds would register as more of a cop out than a resolution of a character ark. This is a story, after all. George has been known to kill off his characters mercilessly, but usually only when they have reached the literary end of the line.

If Catelyn is still in there, why is she asking Brienne to do something that would dishonor herself? She’s not going to be swayed from having Jaime dead, Brienne’s already tried to bargain for his life.

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/13/2021 at 5:35 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So this grew out of a post on the Comeuppance for Jaime and Cersei thread, with addendums from the Jaime’s Hand thread:

  • Jaime’s arc revolves around oaths, making, breaking, and keeping oaths. For example he’s disliked in-universe for breaking his Kingsguard oath by killing the Mad King to save King’s Landing, upholding his oath as a knight to protect the innocent. Jaime muses about the various oaths made by knights and how they conflict with each other.
  • As of ADWD, Jaime is with Brienne and they are heading towards Lady Stoneheart. Lady Stoneheart, as Catelyn, made Jaime promise to bring Sansa and Arya back from King’s Landing, a promise she believes he broke because the sword Brienne carries is made from Ice, Ned Stark’s sword.
  • Brienne swore to prove her loyalty to Lady Stoneheart by killing Jaime.
  • Logical result: Because of the promise Lady Stoneheart believes he broke, the promise Brienne made to Lady Stoneheart, the newfound sense of honor Jaime has, his trust in Brienne, the fact that he can’t fight his way out of a problem due to the loss of his hand, and GRRM’s tendency to show the consequences of one’s actions since he’s not one for miracles, Jaime will receive a short drop and a sudden stop. And so ends the short, undistinguished career of Ser Jaime Lannister the Kingslayer.

Your conclusion is logical.  Lady Cat is not one to listen to reasons.  But Jaime is a main character.  George Martin will not kill him until the last book, if at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/20/2021 at 10:04 PM, Wisconsin said:

Your conclusion is logical.  Lady Cat is not one to listen to reasons.  But Jaime is a main character.  George Martin will not kill him until the last book, if at all. 

Being a main character does in no way guarantee making it to ADOS. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/17/2021 at 4:59 AM, oldbus said:

I suspect you are right, although I will miss Jaime's chapters

Agreed. Ser Jaime will probably be the recipient of a tall tree and a short rope.

 

On 3/17/2021 at 8:18 PM, Makk said:

So I think his fate is to be the 1000th commander of the nights watch.

I couldn't tell you why, but I just don't think this is going to happen. I couldn't see him being Lord Commander just because some zombie lady walks up and tells the Black Brothers " Hey guys, take this guy as Lord Commander". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bobby B's Hamma said:

Being a main character does in no way guarantee making it to ADOS. 

Very true. Just look at Ned Stark, the central character of a single book which he doesn’t live through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Jaime didn't uphold his oath to protect innocent life when he killed Aerys. He sat his lazy arse down on the throne as soon as his own safety was insured and did nothing to help Rhaegar's children.

Edited by Walter White

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Walter White said:

Jaime didn't uphold his oath to protect innocent life when he killed Aerys. He sat his lazy arse down on the throne as soon as his own safety was insured and did nothing to help Rhargar's children.

If you read ASOS he thinks that "his blood is in both of them". Which is not the best reason for allowing two children to die, but you didn't fight a war to seat another mad king on the Iron Throne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

If you read ASOS he thinks that "his blood is in both of them". Which is not the best reason for allowing two children to die, but you didn't fight a war to seat another mad king on the Iron Throne.

I sincerly doubt every Targaryen has been an evil arsehole seeing as We meet Aemon who's one of the kindest characters and even Aerys apparently wasn't so bad in his younger years. Franky it seems like Jaime pulling an excuse out of his arse to excuse his bad behavior which is typical for him.

Edited by Walter White

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He did save King's Landing..........

He would have burnt alive with everyone else had he not thus it's hardly a selfless act.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He still saved half a million people. If that's not selfless, I don't know wtf is. Pardon my French.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He still saved half a million people. If that's not selfless, I don't know wtf is. Pardon my French.

Even Joffrey or Ramsay would do the same seeing as it protects their own lives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/23/2021 at 11:27 AM, Walter White said:

Jaime didn't uphold his oath to protect innocent life when he killed Aerys.

Aerys was going to burn down the city, but nobody knows why and Jaime thinks that nobody would care why. What people think they know in-universe is that Jaime broke his oath as a Kingsguard by killing King Aerys. 

And what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...