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Angel Eyes

Prediction: Jaime’s fate

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16 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He can die first and kill later.  Beric and Stoneheart have led the way.

Could be. But IMO, it would be better if it was his own volition.

16 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Anyhow, he can't fulfil the valonquar prophesy until the Red God gives him his hand back, cause he needs "hands" (plural).

Yes hands. One may not be flesh. Anyhow, I'm not sure anyone will give him a functional hand.

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19 minutes ago, divica said:

Even if LSH wanted her to kill jaime she could have taken him to help her to free podric.

Or his corpse.  I think poor Pod's been hanged to death, but even assuming he lives and is being held hostage, it seems Jaime's corpse would work fine as a ransom, given Stoneheart's words.

19 minutes ago, divica said:

If they were sucessful or not I have a lot of doubts because jaime has been missing for weeks. But it isn't impossible that jaime got to LSH alive.

All kinds of random conceivable things are conceivable.  But assuming Jaime manages to avoid being slain by Brienne's sword, I cannot think of a single reason he would then want to go see Lady Stoneheart.  

19 minutes ago, divica said:

Brienne could even not be able to kill him and take him to LSH so that she can hear jaime and see he changed.

If she can't or won't kill him, how is it likely she can and will force him to go see Stoneheart?  Maybe he ran away from her and is hiding in the woods.  Or maybe she warned him that Stoneheart was after his head, and they disappeared together somewhere.  Or maybe they fought, he got injured, fell into the river, and will wake up naked on the Quiet Isle.  All sorts of things are conceivable, including Brienne somehow or for some reason bringing Jaime alive before Stoneheart.  But what I do not get is why anyone assumes this will happen, or is even likely.

Brienne either kills Jaime and keeps her oath, or lets him go and violates her oath.  Bringing him alive to Stoneheart as some kind of middle ground option makes no sense, and logically result in the same thing.  Stoneheart has no mercy.  She does not care whether Jaime has changed or not.  Brienne saved the lives of everyone in the orphanage by a tremendous act of valor.  This was nothing to Stoneheart.  She did not care.  

19 minutes ago, divica said:

Neither scenario seems impossible...

Most fans treat the "Jaime meets Stoneheart" scenario as a done deal, when I can see no reason to suspect it is even likely.  But okay fine.  It's not impossible.

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11 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Or his corpse.  I think poor Pod's been hanged to death, but even assuming he lives and is being held hostage, it seems Jaime's corpse would work fine as a ransom, given Stoneheart's words.

I meant that brienne could try to persuade jaime to help her save pod without having to kill him or LSH. Although I admit that it is very likely that there are several BwB wating for brienne and jaime a couple miles away from the lannister camp in order to verify if she kills him or do the job themselves if she fails. So they would need to start cooperating pretty early and become even more damned in the eyes of the BwB.

17 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

All kinds of random conceivable things are conceivable.  But assuming Jaime manages to avoid being slain by Brienne's sword, I cannot think of a single reason he would then want to go see Lady Stoneheart

Brienne could knock him out or lead him into a trap where he has to surrender and is captured. He doesn't need to go willingly to the slaughter.

19 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

If she can't or won't kill him, how is it likely she can and will force him to go see Stoneheart?  Maybe he ran away from her and is hiding in the woods.  Or maybe she warned him that Stoneheart was after his head, and they disappeared together somewhere.  Or maybe they fought, he got injured, fell into the river, and will wake up naked on the Quiet Isle.  All sorts of things are conceivable, including Brienne somehow or for some reason bringing Jaime alive before Stoneheart.  But what I do not get is why anyone assumes this will happen, or is even likely.

Brienne either kills Jaime and keeps her oath, or lets him go and violates her oath.  Bringing him alive to Stoneheart as some kind of middle ground option makes no sense, and logically result in the same thing.  Stoneheart has no mercy.  She does not care whether Jaime has changed or not.  Brienne saved the lives of everyone in the orphanage by a tremendous act of valor.  This was nothing to Stoneheart.  She did not care.  

Brienne could capture jaime and make a last ditch effort to show to LSH that he has changed and wasn't involved in the RW. As long as briene brings a captured jaime to LSH she still has hope that things will solve themselves. It makes some sense that briene wants to save everyone and bringing jaime to LSH to show that she was telling the truth is the only way to do it.

And while the reader can think that LSH just wants to kill people doesn't brienne thinks that way. She can still believe she is the cat that she knew and if she can prove to her that jaime is a good person and inocent then she will let them go.

27 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Most fans treat the "Jaime meets Stoneheart" scenario as a done deal, when I can see no reason to suspect it is even likely.  But okay fine.  It's not impossible.

I think most people just don't believe jaime is dead.

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21 minutes ago, divica said:

I meant that brienne could try to persuade jaime to help her save pod without having to kill him or LSH.

Well I don't expect them to try to rescue Pod in a military style stealth raid.  But that makes more sense than walking up to them and putting themselves at their mercy

21 minutes ago, divica said:

Brienne could knock him out or lead him into a trap where he has to surrender and is captured. He doesn't need to go willingly to the slaughter.

Yeah, but why the hell would she?  What is she thinking?  "He's dead either way, but at least if I do it this way, I am also breaking my oath."

21 minutes ago, divica said:

Brienne could capture jaime and make a last ditch effort to show to LSH that he has changed and wasn't involved in the RW. As long as briene brings a captured jaime to LSH she still has hope that things will solve themselves. It makes some sense that briene wants to save everyone and bringing jaime to LSH to show that she was telling the truth is the only way to do it.

Exactly how stupid is she?

21 minutes ago, divica said:

And while the reader can think that LSH just wants to kill people doesn't brienne thinks that way. She can still believe she is the cat that she knew and if she can prove to her that jaime is a good person and innocent then she will let them go.

Brienne knows everything we know.  The only thing she might not know (that we know), is that (in addition to being completely merciless, and violators of guest right) they are also oath-breakers.  After you deliver the ransom, they just hang the hostage anyway, and hang the person who delivered the ransom (that's what happened with Merrit Frey and Petyr Pimple).  But she does know, at least, that Stoneheart is perfectly willing to hang innocent and good people.   If Jaime goes before Stoneheart, he is doomed, even if Brienne is deluded enough to imagine that Jaime is innocent and good.

21 minutes ago, divica said:

I think most people just don't believe jaime is dead.

If they don't want Jaime to be dead, then why on earth would they want him to go before Stoneheart?  Just have Brienne and Jaime run off together.

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3 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well I don't expect them to try to rescue Pod in a military style stealth raid.  But that makes more sense than walking up to them and putting themselves at their mercy

I also think that if there aren't at least a couple of soldiers that jamie trusts with them that this wouldn't make sense. But from what we know so far it is still a posibility.

5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Yeah, but why the hell would she?  What is she thinking?  "He's dead either way, but at least if I do it this way, I am also breaking my oath."

She would think that "Maybe if I bring jaime to her we can convince her that he is inocent. If I kill him now then I am not even trying to save jaime and pod. I have to try!".

8 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Brienne knows everything we know.  The only thing she might not know (that we know), is that (in addition to being completely merciless, and violators of guest right) they are also oath-breakers.  After you deliver the ransom, they just hang the hostage anyway, and hang the person who delivered the ransom (that's what happened with Merrit Frey and Petyr Pimple).  But she does know, at least, that Stoneheart is perfectly willing to hang innocent and good people.   If Jaime goes before Stoneheart, he is doomed, even if Brienne is deluded enough to imagine that Jaime is innocent and good.

 

8 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Exactly how stupid is she?

I wouldn't call her the sharpest knife in the box. After all, the vale is a pretty obvious place for sansa to go and she decides to spend her time in the riverlands...

And brienne can know all that but still believe that LSH is cat. That she has good in her. That she can solve this and save jaime and pod. OR she can try to convince LSH to send jaime to the wall instead of killing him. As a lady she knows that criminals can chose to take the black instead of being killed. She might want to solve this by sending jaime to the wall in order to save his life and get pod back.

13 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

If they don't want Jaime to be dead, then why on earth would they want him to go before Stoneheart?  Just have Brienne and Jaime run off together.

Because it all points to jaime facing LSH because brienne is pressured to obey LSH because of the hostages.

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On 4/26/2021 at 7:09 PM, divica said:

Actually, didn t she order brienne to get jaime for her?

And I don't think LSH wants jaime to take the black. It will be brienne sugestion in order to save jaime's life. And what can LSH if someone choses to take the black instead of facing his trial? If only to prove to those that follow her that she still has some honor she has to send jaime there.

There is no way that LSH will send jaime to KL once again. She thinks he is responsable for the red wedding! And she won't keep him prisoner because that didn't work the first time...

To me it is either death or the wall. I don't see any alternative given that jaime is missing for some time already...

Well it isn't like Lady Stoneheart's asking Brienne to get Jaime for a nice chat over a cup of tea and biscuits.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well it isn't like Lady Stoneheart's asking Brienne to get Jaime for a nice chat over a cup of tea and biscuits.

Obviously not. But when she orders someone to kill someone can always shout "HE WANTS TO TAKE THE BLACK!"

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Nobody seems to have mentioned Jamie's prophetic wierwood stump dream, in which his light fades while Brianne is still defending him. 

I'm inclined to feel that Jamie's death, however it happens, will tie back to this dream, to the implied romance of Jamie and Brianne, and to the connection between the King's Guard and the dead. 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, divica said:

She would think that "Maybe if I bring jaime to her we can convince her that he is inocent. If I kill him now then I am not even trying to save jaime and pod. I have to try!".

This looks to me like we are going around in circles.

STONEHEART:  Take the sword and kill the kingslayer, or be hanged as a traitor.

BRIENNE:  No, you don't understand, Jaime is good and noble and magnificent and kinda hot.

STONEHEART:  Sword or Noose !  Choose!  Choose!

BRIENNE:  But he's changed.  I can't choose.  I won't choose.

STONEHEART:  Hang them!

BRIENNE:  (Surely she can't mean that.  How could she be so mean?)

(Exit Stoneheart)

BRIENNE:  Hey, Lem, I'll bribe you to let us go.

LEM:  Bugger off.  (Yanks rope)

BRIENNE:  ... gurgle ... splurgle ... ach  ....  SWORD!

LEM:  Did she say "sword"?

JACK:  Yeah, I think she said "sword".

LEM:  I wonder if we should tell Stoneheart.

(LATER)

JACK:  Yeah, Stoneheart says cut her down.

(Lem cuts rope).

BRIENNE:  Gurgle! Splurgle!  Ach!  Cough!

(Enter Stoneheart)

STONEHEART:   Did you say "sword"?

BRIENNE:  Yes, I said sword.

STONEHEART:  So you're going to take the sword and kill the kingslayer?

BRIENNE:  No.  You don't understand.  He's changed.  He's good, and noble, and magnificent, and kinda hot.

STONEHEART:  Hang them!

BRIENNE:  Wait, no.  I'll do it.

(LATER)

BRIENNE:  Here you are.  I've brought you Jaime.  All tied up.

STONEHEART:   Why is he still alive?

BRIENNE:  Well, I thought that if you...

STONEHEART:  Take the sword and kill the kingslayer or be hanged as a traitor.  Choose.  Choose.

BRIENNE:  No.  You don't understand.  He's changed.  He's good, and noble, and magnificent, and kinda hot.

JAIME:  That I am.  Completely unrepentant too.  Look at my magnificent grin.

STONEHEART:  Hang them!

BRIENNE:  ... gurgle ... splurgle ... ach ... SWORD!

STONEHEART:  That's okay.  I'll just have Lem do it.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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On 3/13/2021 at 5:35 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So this grew out of a post on the Comeuppance for Jaime and Cersei thread, with addendums from the Jaime’s Hand thread:

  • Jaime’s arc revolves around oaths, making, breaking, and keeping oaths. For example he’s disliked in-universe for breaking his Kingsguard oath by killing the Mad King to save King’s Landing, upholding his oath as a knight to protect the innocent. Jaime muses about the various oaths made by knights and how they conflict with each other.
  • As of ADWD, Jaime is with Brienne and they are heading towards Lady Stoneheart. Lady Stoneheart, as Catelyn, made Jaime promise to bring Sansa and Arya back from King’s Landing, a promise she believes he broke because the sword Brienne carries is made from Ice, Ned Stark’s sword.
  • Brienne swore to prove her loyalty to Lady Stoneheart by killing Jaime.
  • Logical result: Because of the promise Lady Stoneheart believes he broke, the promise Brienne made to Lady Stoneheart, the newfound sense of honor Jaime has, his trust in Brienne, the fact that he can’t fight his way out of a problem due to the loss of his hand, and GRRM’s tendency to show the consequences of one’s actions since he’s not one for miracles, Jaime will receive a short drop and a sudden stop. And so ends the short, undistinguished career of Ser Jaime Lannister the Kingslayer.

Bloodraven, who sided with the red dragon against the brother he loved, sent Jaime's fallen Kingsguard brothers to hammer home Jaime's crime when he betrayed Aerys, notwithstanding Jaime's defense that Aerys planned to burn King's Landing. Rhaegar reminded him that he left his wife and children in Jaime's hands. Bloodraven seems to be preparing Jaime to raise up Jon, Rhaegar's heir, as king.

Quote

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

Jaime I, Feast

Jaime identifies with the Warrior...

Quote

Why would Cersei need the Warrior? She has me.

Jaime II, Feast

And the Warrior protects children...

Quote

 

The Warrior stands before the foe,

protecting us where e'er we go.

With sword and shield and spear and bow,

he guards the little children.

 

Samwell II, Storm

Jaime wants to make good on his failed duty to protect Rhaegar's children...

Quote

 

"... So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it."

"There could be."

"How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says."

"My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."

"Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically.

"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone."

For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks.

 

Jaime I, Dance

Jaime doesn't believe that Rhaegar has any living children. But the George strongly hinted that Jamie will be a kingmaker...

Quote

"They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon." Jaime closed the White Book. "They called him Kingmaker."

Jaime II, Feast

But perhaps Jaime will believe Aegon's claim? Here is a telling quote from Barristan on his path to redemption after taking Robert's pardon...

Quote

"That was when I knew that to redeem myself I must find the true king, and serve him loyally, with all the strength that still remained me."

Daenerys II, Dance

And here's Jaime telling Lancel what he thought of Robert...

Quote

"Robert was no true king."

Jaime IV, Feast

And note the colors he was wearing...

Quote

When he descended for the feast that night, Jaime Lannister wore a doublet of red velvet slashed with cloth-of-gold, and a golden chain studded with black diamonds. He had strapped on his golden hand as well, polished to a fine bright sheen. This was no fit place to wear his whites. His duty awaited him at Riverrun; a darker need had brought him here.

Jaime IV, Feast

Black on Red, like the Blackfyre dragon...

Assuming Jaime is Cersei's valonqar, this quote would tie in nicely with Jaime unwittingly supporting the black dragon...

Quote

Black had never been a happy color on her. With her fair skin, it made her look half a corpse herself.

Cersei II, Feast

Of course, I don't think Aegon could allow Jaime to enter his service. I think Jaime will be allowed to take the black as The Ned wanted and as this foreshadows...

Quote

The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black.

Catelyn X, Game

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Bloodraven, who sided with the red dragon against the brother he loved, sent Jaime's fallen Kingsguard brothers to hammer home Jaime's crime when he betrayed Aerys, notwithstanding Jaime's defense that Aerys planned to burn King's Landing. Rhaegar reminded him that he left his wife and children in Jaime's hands. Bloodraven seems to be preparing Jaime to raise up Jon, Rhaegar's heir, as king.

Jaime I, Feast

Jaime identifies with the Warrior...

Jaime II, Feast

And the Warrior protects children...

Samwell II, Storm

Jaime wants to make good on his failed duty to protect Rhaegar's children...

Jaime I, Dance

Jaime doesn't believe that Rhaegar has any living children. But the George strongly hinted that Jamie will be a kingmaker...

Jaime II, Feast

But perhaps Jaime will believe Aegon's claim? Here is a telling quote from Barristan on his path to redemption after taking Robert's pardon...

Daenerys II, Dance

And here's Jaime telling Lancel what he thought of Robert...

Jaime IV, Feast

And note the colors he was wearing...

Jaime IV, Feast

Black on Red, like the Blackfyre dragon...

Assuming Jaime is Cersei's valonqar, this quote would tie in nicely with Jaime unwittingly supporting the black dragon...

Cersei II, Feast

Of course, I don't think Aegon could allow Jaime to enter his service. I think Jaime will be allowed to take the black as The Ned wanted and as this foreshadows...

Catelyn X, Game

One important thing to note.

Varys kills pycelle and kevan that are 2 of the few characters in KL that might have seen baby aegon and be capable of saying if faegon is real or not.

However this also aplies to jaime. If jaime aproached faegon or KL I wouldn t be surprised if varys tried to kill him.

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Jaime's arc might be the broadest of the characters, covering a wealth of themes. The points GRRM has set out to show about these themes through Jaime are nowhere near being realised and could not be through the limited interactions available within Stoneheart's little band.

Though broad, the primary path of Jaime's arc is selfishness to servitude. He will live to further serve the realm, at the brutal cost of all self.

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On 4/29/2021 at 11:15 AM, namfoodle said:

Nobody seems to have mentioned Jamie's prophetic wierwood stump dream, in which his light fades while Brianne is still defending him. 

I'm inclined to feel that Jamie's death, however it happens, will tie back to this dream, to the implied romance of Jamie and Brianne, and to the connection between the King's Guard and the dead. 

well I think that dream has overtones of undead warriors what with the flaming sword and that fact that Jaime's cave experience is like going to Hades after death and being judged by some of those there - Rhaegar and the old KG.

I am have assumed that Brienne is going to take Jaime to Lady S for trial or simple execution. I can't see why she'd kill him herself. Harder to drag a dead body back to the BWB cave in many ways - too many questions - although I suppose she could take his head! I think she made a decision that Pod was the only innocent person there and she could not bear to see him hang.

However I agree possible she is dead already as she may have said the correct word with her dying breath, leading Lady S to command Thoros to revive her.

I am kind of wedded (or engaged) to the idea that there is going to be a chain of revival: Beric - Catelyn- Jaime  - Brienne - corresponding to the tempering of AAs sword in fire - water - the breast of a lion - the breast of a beloved (house sigils and other symbolic stuff connect each character to each method). Someone put this idea up years agp and I keep mentioning it cause I like it. He regarded Thoros as AA, I just see it as echoing the sequence.

In regards to the sword of AA, Beric's is the only flaming sword we have seen so far in the books and it seems pretty clear that in fact the flame of the sword is the product of the blood and fire magic in the person who wields it, not a property of a particular sword. Ice/Oathkeeper is the most interesting sword in the books - having gone from north to south, been remade so that now it looks fiery rather than Icy etc etc. When Brienne is going to the Whispers carrying Oathkeeper there is all sorts of chatter about 'magic swords'.

 

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11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Jaime's arc might be the broadest of the characters, covering a wealth of themes. The points GRRM has set out to show about these themes through Jaime are nowhere near being realised and could not be through the limited interactions available within Stoneheart's little band.

Though broad, the primary path of Jaime's arc is selfishness to servitude. He will live to further serve the realm, at the brutal cost of all self.

I agree. I have no idea how the current mini-plot with Lady Stoneheart will be resolved, but I do believe that Jaime's character will go on to resolve larger plot issues. He is set up to take out Cersei, help Aegon sit the Iron Throne, and take the Black. 

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11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Though broad, the primary path of Jaime's arc is selfishness to servitude. He will live to further serve the realm, at the brutal cost of all self.

What? That is your take from jaime's story?

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/1/2021 at 1:38 AM, divica said:

What? That is your take from jaime's story?

Yes, "The king eats, the Hand take the shit", that's what Jaime's arc is mostly about. It is the counter-point to honour, pointing out the dishonourable act is often what is best for the realm. It is an exploration of the type of person who would do these acts, and a defence of them, demonstrating that they're servants and what indecent acts they do can come at great personal cost.

Jaime murdering Aerys makes the point. It was a great service, one the honourable best men in the realm around him were not willing to do but that Jaime was. He has that in him where many others in his position do not, a willingness for personal sacrifice for a higher purpose.

The judgement from the act broke Jaime and he turned selfish, he stopped caring for everything and everyone else besides Cersei, Tyrion, House Lannister and fighting/pride. And he could afford to do it because Tywin lived, and Tywin took responsibility for everything. Now Tywin has died and Jaime has lost (is losing) everything that accompanied him in his selfish hole. There's no-one else to protect the realm from the next Aerys situation, either Jaime steps up or the realm suffers.

Jaime will be the defining Hand of the King of the series. Like Aerys, the taking of the Riverlands and sorting out of the Brackens/Blackwoods, he will continue to take the line of best fit for the realm at the personal cost of his honour. And the shit he's done will be nothing compared to the shit he's going to do. Tyland Lannister is your blueprint for Jaime's arc.

Edited by chrisdaw

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53 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes, "The king eats, the Hand take the shit", that's what Jaime's arc is mostly about. It is the counter-point to honour, pointing out the dishonourable act is often what is best for the realm. It is an exploration of the type of person who would do these acts, and a defence of them, demonstrating that they're servants and what indecent acts they do can come at great personal cost.

Jaime murdering Aerys makes the point. It was a great service, one the honourable best men in the realm around him were not willing to do but that Jaime was. He has that in him where many others in his position do not, a willingness to sacrifice his honour for a higher purpose.

The judgement from the act broke Jaime and turned him selfish, he stopped caring for everything and everyone else besides Cersei, Tyrion, House Lannister and fighting/pride. And he could afford to do it because Tywin lived, and Tywin took responsibility for everything. Now Tywin has died and Jaime has lost (is losing) everything he selfishly sunk into in running from judgement. There's no-one else to protect the realm from the next Aerys situation, either Jaime steps up or the realm suffers.

Jaime will be the defining Hand of the King of the series. Like Aerys, the taking of the Riverlands and sorting out of the Brackens/Blackwoods, he will continue to take the line of best fit for the realm at the personal cost of his honour. And the shit he's done will be nothing compared to the shit he's going to do. Tyland Lannister is your blueprint for where Jaime is headed and so the backbone of the arc.

A good warrior/man of honor doesn't make a good Hand. Ned Stark proved that point by failing to prevent a war; he tried to do the right thing by telling Cersei he knew and by telegraphing his movements the way he did, he sealed his fate.

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i think all this reasoning based on the current specific factual situation in the books - that brienne has apparently been sent out to kill him, and she has found him and he has gone with her  - is a fool's errand.

the meta-narrative overrides these details. the next step in Jamie's story will not be his death at the hands of Brienne or Stoneheart. somehow or other he will escape, play some role in resisting the others, witness and perhaps play a role in cersei's death, and then die in the last half of a dream of spring.

he is too important a character, whose redemption arc is too deeply embedded in the ethos of the overall story, to die in the first 1/4 or so of wow.

if bran is the true central protagonist of the entire story - and he is - then Jamie is the original antagonist who set the story in motion by pushing Bran out of the window. they have to meet again. bran has to confront Jamie and Jamie has to confront what he did and seek some kind of resolution from bran for his deeds. the Bran-Jamie conflict has to be directly resolved.

i say this cognizant that GRRM almost specializes in what you might call "indirect vengeance." e.g. Janos Slynt's betrayal of ned is avenged by jon, even though jon has no idea slynt betrayed ned. amory lorch murders the targaryen daughter, and earns a spot on arya's death list for killing yoren. yet he meets his end from the bear at harrenhall, on roose bolton's orders, due to vargo hoats betrayal. there are other betrayals.

nevertheless, Bran and Jamie will meet again, and Jamie will serve some purpose in the fight against the others.

his story is not close to being over.

 

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3 hours ago, Brother Seamus said:

i think all this reasoning based on the current specific factual situation in the books - that brienne has apparently been sent out to kill him, and she has found him and he has gone with her  - is a fool's errand.

the meta-narrative overrides these details. the next step in Jamie's story will not be his death at the hands of Brienne or Stoneheart. somehow or other he will escape, play some role in resisting the others, witness and perhaps play a role in cersei's death, and then die in the last half of a dream of spring.

he is too important a character, whose redemption arc is too deeply embedded in the ethos of the overall story, to die in the first 1/4 or so of wow.

if bran is the true central protagonist of the entire story - and he is - then Jamie is the original antagonist who set the story in motion by pushing Bran out of the window. they have to meet again. bran has to confront Jamie and Jamie has to confront what he did and seek some kind of resolution from bran for his deeds. the Bran-Jamie conflict has to be directly resolved.

i say this cognizant that GRRM almost specializes in what you might call "indirect vengeance." e.g. Janos Slynt's betrayal of ned is avenged by jon, even though jon has no idea slynt betrayed ned. amory lorch murders the targaryen daughter, and earns a spot on arya's death list for killing yoren. yet he meets his end from the bear at harrenhall, on roose bolton's orders, due to vargo hoats betrayal. there are other betrayals.

nevertheless, Bran and Jamie will meet again, and Jamie will serve some purpose in the fight against the others.

his story is not close to being over.

 

Well, it just so happens that a lot of characters (including Jaime) wind up suffering the logical consequences of their actions, you can understand where the notion comes from.

  • Catelyn kidnaps the son of a ruthless lord under false information she didn't bother to verify, the lord takes offense and sends his forces into her homeland for a rape, pillage and burn session.
  • Sansa wants to be with the wrong boy, she is imprisoned and abused.
  • Jaime mouths off one too many times, he loses his hand.
  • Robb pisses off his bannermen, he gets assassinated.
  • Ned tells Cersei he knows her secret, she's able to plan accordingly and gets arrested for treason.
  • Cersei gives power to a bunch of fanatics who don't answer to her, she winds up imprisoned and shamed.
  • Oberyn takes too much time killing one opponent who's doped up on painkillers, the opponent powers through to bust open his head.
  • Quentyn gambles on being able to control dragons as a sunk cost fallacy, he becomes roast frog

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Brother Seamus said:

i think all this reasoning based on the current specific factual situation in the books - that brienne has apparently been sent out to kill him, and she has found him and he has gone with her  - is a fool's errand.

the meta-narrative overrides these details.

Maybe, just maybe, these details are a clue that your ideas about the "meta-narrative" do not match those of GRRM.

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the next step in Jamie's story will not be his death at the hands of Brienne or Stoneheart. somehow or other he will escape, play some role in resisting the others, witness and perhaps play a role in cersei's death, and then die in the last half of a dream of spring.

The only part that seems plausible to me is that he can perhaps play a role in Cersei's death, as (perhaps) foreshadowed by the valonquar prophesy.  But of course he can do that as a undead hell zombie with an animated golden hand.

As for resisting the Others, it seems to me more likely that he will help them, directly or indirectly, by becoming himself one of the undead minions of Death.  Perhaps he will become an undead Azor Ahai, wielding a red hot flaming sword in his animated golden hand, and sacrificing the lives of all and sundry for the sake of the "greater good".

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he is too important a character, whose redemption arc is too deeply embedded in the ethos of the overall story, to die in the first 1/4 or so of wow.

 GRRM said that his original plan was to tell the entire story from the POV of the 6 povs who survived book 1.   I see no proof that his plan has changed all that much.  I think the extra POVs are introduced for limited and temporary purposes.  I think you are making assumptions about those purposes that are not necessarily correct.  And I don't think Jaime has replaced Dany, Tyrion and the Starks as the new central protagonist.  I suspect his POV has ended, and we will learn about what has happened to him -- or about what he has become -- from other more-central protagonists.

Also, GRRM told a French newspaper back in 2013 that he expected TWOW to have 13 or so POVs (including some who will not make it to the end).  Which sure as hell sounds like, out of the 20 surviving POVs, some will be dropped.  I sure sounds as though at least some fans who regard their new favorite POV character as too important to lose are going to be disappointed.

Also, there is no particular need for Jaime do die in the first quarter of TWOW.  Jaime expected a day's ride with Brienne.  But now WEEKS have lapsed, and he is missing.  Whatever happened we missed it, and if he has died, he is dead already.

Also, what "redemption arc"?   Jaime is completely unrepentant.  

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if bran is the true central protagonist of the entire story - and he is -

That's a mighty big assumption.

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then Jamie is the original antagonist who set the story in motion by pushing Bran out of the window.

He's completely unrepentant too.  And yet I keep hearing talk about "redemption".  Sandor is plausibly on some kind of redemption arc.  Jaime is not.

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they have to meet again. bran has to confront Jamie and Jamie has to confront what he did and seek some kind of resolution from bran for his deeds. the Bran-Jamie conflict has to be directly resolved.

On the other hand, maybe Jaime does not HAVE to be redeemed.  Perhaps he can stay a villain.  That being the case, I do not see that any of the above is helpful or necessary.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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