Prediction: Jaime's fate

[divica]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not looking for excuses to have my way Divica.  I'm suggesting a possibility.  We have no reason to believe anything until we see it on the page.   To me a trial by combat has a certain logic.  You have rejected everything I've said. So we will have to leave it at that.

I haven't rejected. I have said why it looks unlikely to me. And while I agree with you that the BwB acepted a trial by combat, I also asked you how jaime could end up in a similar situation with the current BwB.

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Beric Dondarrion turned back to the Hound. "You stand accused of murder, but no one here knows the truth or falsehood of the charge, so it is not for us to judge you. Only the Lord of Light may do that now. I sentence you to trial by battle."

What can lead people in the BwB to say something like this about jaime?

Is there any doubt that he lead lannister men against the tullys? That he threatned edmure's baby and it was witnessed by a member of the BwB? That he has been helping the freys end the war? That roose gave jaime's regards to LSH during the RW and therefore implicating him? That the current BwB wants revenge and is breaking the old laws in order to acheive it?

I am genuinely asking you why you think a trial by combat is likely. Because some of the arguments you used just aren't that good.

Brienne isn't trusted in the BwB and is seen as a lannister lackey. Her words won't do much to defend jaime and given their separation she will say that jaime was alone with roose for a while and could in fact planed the RW.

How can jaime defend his actions in the riverlands?

Will the BwB acuse him of fathering cersei's children? 

What can be done to defend jaime?

Edit

And look at this.

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"I've admitted to shoving your precious urchin out a window, what would it gain me to lie about this knife?" He tossed down another cup of wine. "Believe what you will, I'm past caring what people say of me. And it's my turn.

and

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"You admit to being your sister's lover?"

"I've always loved my sister, and you owe me two answers. 

are proof of more of jaime's crimes that he himself admited.

[chrisdaw]

The BwBs end after Stoneheart ends, and Stoneheart ends when Arya rejects her as Catelyn Stark and identifies it as an evil remnant that must be destroyed for the good of the people. Probably Jaime and Brienne are simply kept alive until then.

Jaime made his name as a young teen fighting the Kingswood Brotherhood with the Kingsguard and Ser Arthur Dayne. When the BwBs implodes there will be blood, and Gendry is going to be in the thick of it, and Jaime and Brienne there on hand to witness his heroics. Gendry is being set to follow in Jaime's footsteps.

After the good half of the BwBs overcomes the bad half, they're going to have the problem of still being outlaws and the crown wanting their heads. Enter Jaime, to graciously set aside the personal shit they will have done to him in his captivity and pardon their trespasses and reconcile them back to the crown, because that'll be what is in the best interest of the realm.

[Jaenara Belarys]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

The BwB will uphold a judgement in Jaime's favor.

How will this happen? It seems like he'd lose a trial by battle, and he'd have the jury stacked against him during a regular trial. I like Jaime, but appears he's screwed.  

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

How will this happen? It seems like he'd lose a trial by battle, and he'd have the jury stacked against him during a regular trial. I like Jaime, but appears he's screwed.  

That's what I've been saying; what people know or think they know about Jaime (the big one is being an oathbreaker) and his crimes past and present is going to count against him and since he still hasn't worked out how to fight effectively minus his dominant hand, he's likely done for.

[LynnS]

On 5/6/2021 at 11:53 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

How will this happen? It seems like he'd lose a trial by battle, and he'd have the jury stacked against him during a regular trial. I like Jaime, but appears he's screwed.  

Yes, he is screwed.  LSH wants him dead and so does the jury. The only way out for him, that I can see is a trial by combat.  We have the example of Lysa Arryn and Tyrion.  The only reason she agreed to it was because she thought she couldn't lose, that Tyrion couldn't win in combat.  Then he gets a champion and the tables are turned.  The BwB may think the same thing about Jaime; that he can't possibly win without his sword hand.  He can then ask for a champion and I think the only one who would do that for him is Brienne.  Since Brienne is the one who delivers Jaime to LSH, nobody will be expecting her to be his champion.

Of course, it's all conjecture but I don't think this is the end of the story for Jaime.  So how does he get out of it?

[HoodedCrow]

Perhaps Brienne does win as Jaimes champion. They find out about a Tourney at the Vale and steal Sansa or become Santa’s guards for a time.

[Nathan Stark]

I agree Jaime's out is a trial by combat. I do not think Brienne will champion him, however. There's been way too much wordspace devoted to Jaime training with his left for nothing to come of it.

[divica]

On 5/6/2021 at 4:53 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

How will this happen? It seems like he'd lose a trial by battle, and he'd have the jury stacked against him during a regular trial. I like Jaime, but appears he's screwed.  

I keep thinking that brienne will convince him to take the black in order to avoid being killed.

[Mister Smikes]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

The only way out for him, that I can see is a trial by combat.  

Option #1:  He manages to dodge when Brienne tries to stab him in the back, and then runs away real fast, since he cannot outfight her with one hand.

As to those fantasizing about Jaime prevailing in a trial by combat, or any other kind of trial or permitting him to "take the black" -- what are you smoking?  Stoneheart is not Beric -- she's called "Stoneheart" for a reason -- and she's not interested in any kind of "justice" -- not even the pretense of it.  She's not interested in mercy either.  Thoros makes that clear, and if that were not enough -- we've seen it with our own eyes.

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Of course, it's all conjecture but I don't think this is the end of the story for Jaime.  So how does he get out of it?

Option #2 -- The Kiss of Fire.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Option #1:  He manages to dodge when Brienne tries to stab him in the back, and then runs away real fast, since he cannot outfight her with one hand.

As to those fantasizing about Jaime prevailing in a trial by combat, or any other kind of trial or permitting him to "take the black" -- what are you smoking?  Stoneheart is not Beric -- she's called "Stoneheart" for a reason -- and she's not interested in any kind of "justice" -- not even the pretense of it.  She's not interested in mercy either.  Thoros makes that clear, and if that were not enough -- we've seen it with our own eyes.

Option #2 -- The Kiss of Fire.

Oh I know.  Everybody hates him, nobody likes him, he's gonna eat some worms. 

[Mister Smikes]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh I know.  Everybody hates him, nobody likes him, he's gonna eat some worms. 

This has nothing to do with what I said.  And I did suggest option #1 (though frankly I consider option 2 more likely).

Anyhow, it is clearly not true that everyone hates Jaime and nobody likes Jaime.  Lots of people seem to like him (which I admit I find quite mysterious).  But my dislike of Jaime is not why I expect bad things to happen to him relatively soon.  After all, a good story needs villains as well as heroes.  As far as I'm concerned I'm just following the evidence. 

It would be closer to the truth to say that everyone hates Daario and nobody likes Daario.  And this time I agree with them.  But sadly, it does not look to me that Daario is already dead or about to die.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

This has nothing to do with what I said.  And I did suggest option #1 (though frankly I consider option 2 more likely).

When you throw out the 'what are you smoking line', i am tempted not to take you seriously.

I don't know what you are proposing for option #2.  However, I will say up front that I don't argue with anyone who is certain about their predictions.  I just take them as a statement of what someone thinks at the moment.  

[divica]

29 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

As to those fantasizing about Jaime prevailing in a trial by combat, or any other kind of trial or permitting him to "take the black" -- what are you smoking?  Stoneheart is not Beric -- she's called "Stoneheart" for a reason -- and she's not interested in any kind of "justice" -- not even the pretense of it.  She's not interested in mercy either.  Thoros makes that clear, and if that were not enough -- we've seen it with our own eyes.

I completly agree that LSH doesn t want justice or mercy. She wants vengence. But I also think that if people mention that ned would never kill someone that wants to take the black or something like that she will feel pressured to do the right thing. And going to the wall is a punishment.

[Mister Smikes]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When you throw out the 'what are you smoking line', i am tempted not to take you seriously.

You are under absolutely no obligation to take me seriously.  I'm only an anonymous person on the internet with an opinion.

The "what are you smoking" line is merely a colorful way of saying that I cannot see what everyone else seems to see.    I'm sorry that it offended you, but really, that's pretty mild sort of talk.

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know what you are proposing for option #2. 

UnBrienne takes the sword and kills the kingslayer.  Later someone (Thoros?  UnBrienne?  Stoneheart?) gives Jaime the kiss of fire.  UnJaime then goes on to do various things, including strangling Cersei.

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

However, I will say up front that I don't argue with anyone who is certain about their predictions. 

I suggested 2 mutually exclusive options, so I am hardly certain about my predictions.  

 

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

You are under absolutely no obligation to take me seriously.  I'm only an anonymous person on the internet with an opinion.

The "what are you smoking" line is merely a colorful way of saying that I cannot see what everyone else seems to see.    I'm sorry that it offended you, but really, that's pretty mild sort of talk.

UnBrienne takes the sword and kills the kingslayer.  Later someone (Thoros?  UnBrienne?  Stoneheart?) gives Jaime the kiss of fire.  UnJaime then goes on to do various things, including strangling Cersei.

I suggested 2 mutually exclusive options, so I am hardly certain about my predictions.  

 

I accept your clarification and that you meant it in good humor.  I don't discount the possibilities that you offer.  It would be an interesting plot development.

[Mister Smikes]

17 minutes ago, divica said:

I completly agree that LSH doesn t want justice or mercy. She wants vengence. But I also think that if people mention that ned would never kill someone that wants to take the black or something like that she will feel pressured to do the right thing. And going to the wall is a punishment.

It's too bad Harwin wasn't around to explain that Ned would never have hanged a 12-year old boy for the crime of having a squire for an enemy warrior.  And while he was at it, he could have explained that Catelyn Stark would have never done such a thing either.

As I see it, we're way past that point now.   You are ascribing to Stoneheart a level of humanity that she no longer possesses.  If Jaime hopes to survive, he must avoid falling into Stoneheart's power.  And perhaps, while he is at it, he should avoid falling into Zombie Brienne's power as well.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

It's too bad Harwin wasn't around to explain that Ned would never have hanged a 12-year old boy for the crime of having a squire for an enemy warrior.  And while he was at it, he could have explained that Catelyn Stark would have never done such a thing either.

As I see it, we're way past that point now.   You are ascribing to Stoneheart a level of humanity that she no longer possesses.  If Jaime hopes to survive, he must avoid falling into Stoneheart's power.  And perhaps, while he is at it, he should avoid falling into Zombie Brienne's power as well.

Maybe if someone had pointed that Ned or robb would never do something like that. That robb lost some of his men because he killed a guy for killing an inocent kid then LSH would have acted diferently.

I am not saying it is a garantee, just that it is possible that LSH acepts that jaime should take the black instead of killing him. It isn't something too farfetched.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, divica said:

I keep thinking that brienne will convince him to take the black in order to avoid being killed.

Taking the Black would also be an interesting plot development.   I'm just not sure how or when it would happen and if the confrontation with LSH is the time and place.  

[divica]

Just now, LynnS said:

Taking the Black would also be an interesting plot development.   I'm just not sure how or when it would happen and if the confrontation with LSH is the time and place. 

Another interesting thing is that if brienne goes with him then it would bring her into stannis orbit and her revenge. 

And given that the show had brienne killing stannis instead of ramsay (that was really weird) it might be what will happen in the books.

And with jaime's military knowledge and knowing about what happened in the south and how they think he would be an important pov in the north. On the other hand he brings very little to whatever is happeing in KL or the riverlands. 

In KL we don't need someone telling us how crazy cersei is, faegon already has 2 pov's with him and it looks like tarly and the tyrells are going to lead the fight against faegon at this stage.

In the riverlands I just don't see him doing anyhting besides dying or being tortured.

[LynnS]

19 minutes ago, divica said:

Another interesting thing is that if brienne goes with him then it would bring her into stannis orbit and her revenge. 

And given that the show had brienne killing stannis instead of ramsay (that was really weird) it might be what will happen in the books.

And with jaime's military knowledge and knowing about what happened in the south and how they think he would be an important pov in the north. On the other hand he brings very little to whatever is happeing in KL or the riverlands. 

In KL we don't need someone telling us how crazy cersei is, faegon already has 2 pov's with him and it looks like tarly and the tyrells are going to lead the fight against faegon at this stage.

In the riverlands I just don't see him doing anyhting besides dying or being tortured.

  Assuming that Jaime survives in one form or another; I think there is still unfinished business between Brienne, Jaime and LSH. In the form of the vow they took to return Catelyn's girls and for Jaime never to take up arms against the Tully's or the Starks.  I don't think they are released from this vow.  Brienne's position is that a promise made to the dead must be kept and here's 'the dead' standing in front of her.  Jaime still has to do something about the siege at Riverrun if he is to keep his vow.  He's going to be horribly shocked when he meets dead Catelyn.  So what does he do about his army at Riverrun?  Does he offer to take Winterfell back in restitution.  Does he meet up with Stannis who gives him a rough form of justice and sends him to the Wall?  |Does Brienne go with him or take another path?

Edit: LSH knows that Arya is alive, last seen in the Riverlands with the Hound.  In this scenario, it makes sense for Jaime to be dispatched to Winterfell and for Brienne to pick up the cold trail after the hound.  The question is what is the Mad Mouse up to with Sansa and will Brienne cross paths with him again?