Prediction: Jaime's fate

[WhatAnArtist!]

If Martin was intent on having a realistic and logical conclusion to Jaime's arc, based on what we've seen on Stoneheart and the aDwD chapter, he'll be brought before Stoneheart, found guilty of his crimes, and hanged from a tree. An extremely bleak and nihilistic ending, to be sure, but it would have a certain poetic feel to it - hanged just as he was starting to truly turn his life around and be a better man, and hanged not for any of the crimes he really did commit, but for the one he actually did not. As much as I truly love Jaime as a character, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with this ending. It would certainly be more unexpected and impactful than him going back to King's Landing and killing Cersei. Everyone and their cat is predicting this will happen, and it's never seemed particularly interesting or original to me. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

If Martin was intent on having a realistic and logical conclusion to Jaime's arc, based on what we've seen on Stoneheart and the aDwD chapter, he'll be brought before Stoneheart, found guilty of his crimes, and hanged from a tree. An extremely bleak and nihilistic ending, to be sure, but it would have a certain poetic feel to it - hanged just as he was starting to truly turn his life around and be a better man, and hanged not for any of the crimes he really did commit, but for the one he actually did not. As much as I truly love Jaime as a character, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with this ending. It would certainly be more unexpected and impactful than him going back to King's Landing and killing Cersei. Everyone and their cat is predicting this will happen, and it's never seemed particularly interesting or original to me. 

You don't think that Jamie and Cersei have unfinished business? I sort of see Cersei as Jamie's Darth Vader. Jamie can't be truly redeemed without confronting Cersei one way or the other. Just ditching out on her and dying in the field in my mind leaves him somewhat untested and as such unredeemed.  He wouldn't be the first character to die with that lack though.

 

[WhatAnArtist!]

10 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

You don't think that Jamie and Cersei have unfinished business? I sort of see Cersei as Jamie's Darth Vader. Jamie can't be truly redeemed without confronting Cersei one way or the other. Just ditching out on her and dying in the field in my mind leaves him somewhat untested and as such unredeemed.  He wouldn't be the first character to die with that lack though.

 

I understand the thematic reasons of why there "needs" to be a confrontation between Jaime and Cersei, from a traditional storytelling perspective, but at the same time I feel that if Martin were to end every storyline with the most obvious conclusion because it's what fits thematically, there'd be no surprises left in the story. Catelyn and Robb's storylines ended very abruptly and without any closure; they never even encountered any of the people that wanted to defeat - Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey - and were unceremoniously murdered by a minor character who had only showed up once before. 

I don't expect the storyline to actually end the way I said - I was merely outlining what the most purely realistic and logical way it would end based on the events as they currently are, not what fans predict. But I'm sure that if Jaime was going to be killed by Stoneheart it would have been included at the end of Dance, so.... yeah, I wouldn't worry about that happening, I'm sure he'll go to King's Landing and confront Cersei and it'll either end with him killing her, as every fan predicts, or them dying together, as the show had things happen. I can't say either conclusion particularly interests me, but I'm not the writer so it's not up to me.

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/5/2021 at 12:49 PM, WhatAnArtist! said:

If Martin was intent on having a realistic and logical conclusion to Jaime's arc, based on what we've seen on Stoneheart and the aDwD chapter, he'll be brought before Stoneheart, found guilty of his crimes, and hanged from a tree.

I agree that there is no way Stoneheart will let Jaime live, if Jaime falls into her power.  

I do not think it logical that it will get to that point, though.   Brienne's oath was to "take the sword and slay the kingslayer".  Either she keeps the oath, and slays him with her own sword; or she breaks the oath, and lets him go.   (Or maybe she tries to have it both ways, by slaying Jaime, then raising him with the kiss of fire, and then letting him go).  Brienne bringing Jaime before Stoneheart is the worst of both options, as it makes Brienne an oathbreaker and it leaves Jaime just as dead.

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An extremely bleak and nihilistic ending, to be sure, but it would have a certain poetic feel to it - hanged just as he was starting to truly turn his life around and be a better man, and hanged not for any of the crimes he really did commit, but for the one he actually did not. As much as I truly love Jaime as a character, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with this ending. It would certainly be more unexpected and impactful than him going back to King's Landing and killing Cersei. Everyone and their cat is predicting this will happen, and it's never seemed particularly interesting or original to me. 

For once, I agree with the popular position: that Jaime will return to KL and strangle Cersei.  Though I don't blame you for not finding it particularly interesting.

[Angel Eyes]

17 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I agree that there is no way Stoneheart will let Jaime live, if Jaime falls into her power.  

I do not think it logical that it will get to that point, though.   Brienne's oath was to "take the sword and slay the kingslayer".  Either she keeps the oath, and slays him with her own sword; or she breaks the oath, and lets him go.   (Or maybe she tries to have it both ways, by slaying Jaime, then raising him with the kiss of fire, and then letting him go).  Brienne bringing Jaime before Stoneheart is the worst of both options, as it makes Brienne an oathbreaker and it leaves Jaime just as dead.

There's no way Lady Stoneheart is letting Jaime live.

[WhatAnArtist!]

19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

There's no way Lady Stoneheart is letting Jaime live.

Yep. The idea that Stoneheart would repeat the exact same mistake she made in Clash by releasing Jaime again is hilarious. The entire point of Stoneheart is that she has none of the mercy or empathy of Catelyn, and does not forgive or forget. If Stoneheart captures Jaime and then trusts him again to fulfil some promise in King's Landing, it will be the dumbest thing Martin has ever written. I have more faith in him than that. 

[remiel6]

There is a best of both worlds option. Stoneheart can kill Jamie, Thoros brings him back to life, to fulfill his vow. Brienne and Jamie first travel to Bravos to get Arya, then Jamie deduces, perhaps from Arya's knowledge of poisons that Littlefinger was involved in Joffreys death and thus Sansa is with him. My guess would be that Brienne uses what she knows of Sandor and they both go to investigate if Arya died at the town with the fake Sandor, where Arya got on the boat. They then find something there that takes them to Bravos. 

Still think Arya kills the Freys though, likely many others. 

My guess is Jamie dies after both girls are returned to Winterfell. Perhaps by Saving  Bran which would bring his story full circle. 

[bigdickbaj]

Im a bit late to this topic but for some reason I have this intricate theory where Lady Stoneheart will capture Jaime and Jaime will tell her that Arya is in Winterfell she will go there and find Stannis as he wins it, or someone he leaves there and then will go to the wall and find neither Arya nor Sansa but a Jon who was resurrected by the Red Woman( I don't think he will be ressurected by stoneheart, too much time between his death and her possibly travelling although Kevan did say that it had been about a month since Jaime disappeared and thus they could be on their way and she can ressurect Jon either way it changes my theory in a minor fashion) and then will force Jaime to take the black from Jon's advice who will join her group. Then Jaime and others will be sent to range over the wall and he will stumble onto Bran over the wall and either die protecting him or bring him back.

[WhatAnArtist!]

On 11/7/2021 at 9:15 AM, bigdickbaj said:

and Jaime will tell her that Arya is in Winterfell

But Jaime knows that the "Arya" in Winterfell isn't the real Arya. Or do you mean that he'd intentionally mislead Stoneheart?

On 11/7/2021 at 9:15 AM, bigdickbaj said:

Then Jaime and others will be sent to range over the wall and he will stumble onto Bran over the wall and either die protecting him or bring him back.

I don't think the Night's Watch ranges as far north as Bran is. Bran and co. are basically in the Land of Always Winter, unmapped territory; that's too far for the Watch to range, who usually limit themselves to the Haunted Forest.

[Brother Seamus]

On 5/5/2021 at 3:24 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Maybe, just maybe, these details are a clue that your ideas about the "meta-narrative" do not match those of GRRM.

The only part that seems plausible to me is that he can perhaps play a role in Cersei's death, as (perhaps) foreshadowed by the valonquar prophesy.  But of course he can do that as a undead hell zombie with an animated golden hand.

As for resisting the Others, it seems to me more likely that he will help them, directly or indirectly, by becoming himself one of the undead minions of Death.  Perhaps he will become an undead Azor Ahai, wielding a red hot flaming sword in his animated golden hand, and sacrificing the lives of all and sundry for the sake of the "greater good".

 GRRM said that his original plan was to tell the entire story from the POV of the 6 povs who survived book 1.   I see no proof that his plan has changed all that much.  I think the extra POVs are introduced for limited and temporary purposes.  I think you are making assumptions about those purposes that are not necessarily correct.  And I don't think Jaime has replaced Dany, Tyrion and the Starks as the new central protagonist.  I suspect his POV has ended, and we will learn about what has happened to him -- or about what he has become -- from other more-central protagonists.

Also, GRRM told a French newspaper back in 2013 that he expected TWOW to have 13 or so POVs (including some who will not make it to the end).  Which sure as hell sounds like, out of the 20 surviving POVs, some will be dropped.  I sure sounds as though at least some fans who regard their new favorite POV character as too important to lose are going to be disappointed.

Also, there is no particular need for Jaime do die in the first quarter of TWOW.  Jaime expected a day's ride with Brienne.  But now WEEKS have lapsed, and he is missing.  Whatever happened we missed it, and if he has died, he is dead already.

Also, what "redemption arc"?   Jaime is completely unrepentant.  

That's a mighty big assumption.

He's completely unrepentant too.  And yet I keep hearing talk about "redemption".  Sandor is plausibly on some kind of redemption arc.  Jaime is not.

On the other hand, maybe Jaime does not HAVE to be redeemed.  Perhaps he can stay a villain.  That being the case, I do not see that any of the above is helpful or necessary.

You seem to be reading a different set of books.

Of course, GRRM can do whatever he wants, he can totally fuck up the story, but killing Jaime off before the end makes no sense and will not happen.

And Bran being  is the main character and Jaime being on a redemption arc are too obvious to warrant discussion. You either see it or you willfully ignore it. No point in arguing about it.

It would be cool if we could place wagers on this stuff. Put our money where our mouths are somehow. They have those big wagering companies overseas - a big one is in Ireland - where you can place a bet on who will win elections, all kinds of stuff. They block bettors from the US but I am assuming there is a way around it if you're determined enough.

What do you say? Hypothetically, if there were a way to do it, would you bet $20 Jaime dies before the last 1/4 of the last book, measured by page count? I'd put that much on the bet that he makes it, maybe a lot more.

I'd also put money on the proposition that Jaime dies fighting the others. If you gave me odds - since this is a hyper-specific prediction -  I'd bet he dies defending Bran.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:06 AM, WhatAnArtist! said:

I don't think the Night's Watch ranges as far north as Bran is. Bran and co. are basically in the Land of Always Winter, unmapped territory; that's too far for the Watch to range, who usually limit themselves to the Haunted Forest.

They don't.....it's that guy's headcanon. 

Where have you been, WhatAnArtist? It's been a month

[Angel Eyes]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:29 PM, Brother Seamus said:

You seem to be reading a different set of books.

Of course, GRRM can do whatever he wants, he can totally fuck up the story, but killing Jaime off before the end makes no sense and will not happen.

And Bran being  is the main character and Jaime being on a redemption arc are too obvious to warrant discussion. You either see it or you willfully ignore it. No point in arguing about it.

And yet GRRM has seen fit to pull the rug out from under people because it wasn't expected.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

Can't see even Stoneheart killing Jaime.

The Brotherhood had a spy in Jaime's mist and definitely know Jaime is about to get the prisoners from the Twins. My guess is that Stoneheart will make Jaime free the prisoners and hand them back to her and the Brotherhood as well as exterminate House Frey or else the lives of Brienne and her entourage will be forfeit. Jaime will definitely try to free the prisoners taken during the Red Wedding and kill as many Freys as he can. How that ends up is anyone's guess.

[Angel Eyes]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:16 PM, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

Can't see even Stoneheart killing Jaime.

The Brotherhood had a spy in Jaime's mist and definitely know Jaime is about to get the prisoners from the Twins. My guess is that Stoneheart will make Jaime free the prisoners and hand them back to her and the Brotherhood as well as exterminate House Frey or else the lives of Brienne and her entourage will be forfeit. Jaime will definitely try to free the prisoners taken during the Red Wedding and kill as many Freys as he can. How that ends up is anyone's guess.

Why can't you see it? She wanted to hang Brienne for wearing a sword with Lannister-related metalwork and Podrick for being a Lannister squire. Plus she's already interpreted Jaime as having broken his word because of the sword.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

On 6/30/2022 at 9:01 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Why can't you see it? She wanted to hang Brienne for wearing a sword with Lannister-related metalwork and Podrick for being a Lannister squire. Plus she's already interpreted Jaime as having broken his word because of the sword.

My guess is that the Brotherhood convinced Stoneheart that keeping him alive will have some usefulness. As I said before Jaime is on his way to get the hostages from the Twins. They get the hostages back from Jaime, they'll be free to wreck havoc against the Iron Throne.

[chrisdaw]

My guess is Stoneheart being the inhuman personification of revenge and evil will intend years of continuous torture for Jaime.

[Jan Snieg]

My predictions are that Brienne will take Jaime to BWB, he will choose battle by combat as the only way to have any chances of survival. Brienne will be chosen as the champion and she will sacrifice herself saving Jaime and furfilling his change.

[Elizaveta]

I know it's highly optimistic, but I hope he ends up with Brienne and they have a happy ending. Ofc it's GRRM so it's likely gonna be the opposite of that

[BlackLightning]

On 10/14/2021 at 9:48 PM, Mister Smikes said:

For once, I agree with the popular position: that Jaime will return to KL and strangle Cersei.  Though I don't blame you for not finding it particularly interesting.

No I don't think Jaime will kill Cersei.

I think Euron or Arya will kill Cersei.

On 7/3/2022 at 8:48 PM, chrisdaw said:

My guess is Stoneheart being the inhuman personification of revenge and evil will intend years of continuous torture for Jaime.

I mostly agree.

I don't think Catelyn is going to kill him right away. She'll thoroughly enjoy torturing him but Jaime, as it stands, is far too useful alive than dead.

I don't believe that the Lady Stoneheart Saga is this mindless, vengeful ghost. I think that she is GRRM's version of La Llorona: for those not familiar, La Llorona (Spanish for "The Weeping Woman") is a Mexican/Amerindian story about the ghost of a tortured woman who roams the countryside, mostly near bodies of water, mourning her dead children (who she drowned) and killing other people's children out of envy and jealousy. The reasons why she drowned her children and how many children she had varies from telling to telling and from place to place. In some versions, she had one that she drowned and, in others, she drowned all of her children. I'm personally familiar with the version that she had five children and that they all died.

As for why she killed her children, the version I am most familiar with is that she killed her children in an desperate attempt to protect them from her husband...who happened to not be the father of children. Another version I had heard of is that she did it to maintain her honor and please her husband. And then there's this one version where it was a complete accident. In all versions, the woman is cursed and becomes some sort of witch-demon of the lakes, rivers and streams who mainly preys upon other people's children but isn't entirely opposed to carrying adults off to hell.

Sound familiar?

It's a HUGE folk tale in Mexico and Central America...but it also happens to be pretty popular in the American Southwest. I know this story fairly intimately because I used to live there. Guess who happens to be a longtime resident of the Southwest? I'll give you a hint...he's from Bayonne, New Jersey and is the author of Fire and Blood.

That said, this is GRRM and the story is A Song of Ice and Fire where gods and men play games of thrones...so, I don't think that Catelyn is merely a Westerosi version of La Llorona. I think that she is more than that....that Catelyn is playing the long game.

Why do I say that?

Because she went out of her way to recover Robb's crown (and when we see her with it, she's caressing it and looking at something longingly), she's looking for Arya (and doing a much better job of it than Brienne), and the Brotherhood has gone from a fairly powerful band of outlaws into an organized underground network of guerrilla fighters and spies under her leadership.

Which is where Jaime comes in.

Lady Stoneheart wants to avenge the Red Wedding. To that end, not only does she mean tot destroy the Freys but she means to destroy the Lannisters and the Boltons as well. The Boltons are way too far away and winter is coming so Stoneheart has been forced to put them on the backburner. While most of the Lannisters are tucked away in Casterly Rock, the lion's share of Lannister power (pun intended) is in the Riverlands and their allies rule in Riverrun, Harrenhal and Darry.

Don't you think it weird that Tom of Sevenstreams (who is a key member of Catelyn's Brotherhood without Banners...we saw that in Merrett Frey's epilogue) volunteered to not only pay Edmure Tully a visit in his prison tent during the siege of Riverrun...but also to join the Frey-Lannister household in Riverrun?

Catelyn has made some big mistakes but she has never been anything less than intelligent.

She's playing a game of thrones for the Kingdom of the North and the Trident and Jaime is a key piece. So, I think she will set out to use Jaime as a tool to make Houses Frey and Lannister go extinct. Courtesy of another Red Wedding perhaps? And speaking of weddings, isn't Daven Lannister - Jaime's favorite cousin - getting married? To a Frey?

Fascinating.

 

That said, Catelyn may only come up with this idea later. She might fully intend to kill him only for Bran to use the trees or the ravens to intercede on Jaime's behalf and/or change her mind.

 

Once Brienne brings Jaime to her, I think Catelyn might send her away on some other mission. Most likely north to Stannis Baratheon (Stannis is actually the biggest threat to Catelyn's plans) but maybe east to the Vale...as the whole situation pertaining to Littlefinger, his bastard daughter, Marillion, the Arryns and the upcoming tourney is too fascinating to ignore.

[Gilbert Green]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:29 PM, Brother Seamus said:

It would be cool if we could place wagers on this stuff. Put our money where our mouths are somehow. They have those big wagering companies overseas - a big one is in Ireland - where you can place a bet on who will win elections, all kinds of stuff. They block bettors from the US but I am assuming there is a way around it if you're determined enough.

I have always liked the idea of friendly wagers on our theories.  But I see no way to make it practical.  Especially the money part.

One thing that could be done is to post predictions on alt.fan.grrm.  The newsgroup is dead as a stone.  Which is sad.  But in some ways it makes it more convenient as a way to record predictions for posterity.  And any predictions posted there cannot be edited, altered or deleted after being proven wrong.