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Lady Winter Rose

Ned Stark was fairly starkly replaced by Davos Seaworth

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When you think of it, it probably isn't an unique thought.

Ned Stark was killed in Book One, but his noble spirit has lived on. Despite being dead into death, Davos Seaworth is very much low key replacement for Ned Stark role in the books: when you think more closely, both are individual characters, with noble soul, strong connection to the Baratheon kings as friendly advisor or more indept friend, humble to the bones, and truth loving men.

Of course, I don't think they are same man, just that they fullfill practically same slot into the book

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Yup, I've thought this too. Both are so firmly in Stannis' corner to the point of absurdity, not considering his flaws as fatal to his pursuit of the throne.

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Yup, I've noticed this as well. Ned and Davos might be two very different characters, but in terms of personality, they are very similar. I love them both, so dam much.

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Call me naive, but I think another honorable man willing to do the very hard right thing in ASOIAF lends itself to the real good, which I tend to think the point is.  Davos being a low born criminal in the first place is a brilliant stroke of story telling here, particularly in the shadow of Ned's bright honorable light.  It would be a very different story without the likes of Davos or Brienne or Sam.  In a way, each of the good and bad characters we run across in pages is incarnated or revealed in a new or newly visited character.  It is not often a sudden transfer of character traits such as in the case of Septon Meriblad leading to Elder Brother or even in the immediate after math of the death of say Ned that Davos is introduced, but the more subtle transitions like Maester Aemon from Maester Luwin or Selmy from Jorah.  The good guys, rare though they be, are critical for the telling of this tale.  

 

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They are very similar. And one of the similarities they have is how they try to save children. Davos saved Edric Storm's life, which might have cost him his life. Ned tried to save Cersei's brood from Robert's anger, but it ended up costing him his life in the end.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yup, I've thought this too. Both are so firmly in Stannis' corner to the point of absurdity, not considering his flaws as fatal to his pursuit of the throne.

Meanwhile theyre as religious as Stannis' god is jealous. Thats interesting.

With Ned we see this as a main flaw, dragonspawn and getting surprised over Rhaego. Davos though is different and able to save Edric from his king. 

I think Davos will become a far greater hand then Ned, probably at Stannis' expanse

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

They are very similar. And one of the similarities they have is how they try to save children. Davos saved Edric Storm's life, which might have cost him his life. Ned tried to save Cersei's brood from Robert's anger, but it ended up costing him his life in the end.

I think it was about underestimating Cersei/preventing a war as much as the kids. This love of all children lives is a facade Ned tells others, maybe himself, as Theons upbringing can attest

Edited by Hugorfonics

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Meanwhile theyre as religious as Stannis' god is jealous. Thats interesting.

With Ned we see this as a main flaw, dragonspawn and getting surprised over Rhaego. Davos though is different and able to save Edric from his king. 

I think Davos will become a far greater hand then Ned, probably at Stannis' expanse

I think it was about underestimating Cersei/preventing a war as much as the kids. This love of all children lives is a facade Ned tells others, maybe himself, as Theons upbringing can attest

I don’t recall Ned ever treating Theon badly. He basically had him grow up with his children.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sifth said:

I don’t recall Ned ever treating Theon badly. He basically had him grow up with his children.

Basically. 

 

As if ten years in Winterfell could make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father's good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had.

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.

.

Its not that Ned treated Theon badly (although making him stand by Ice for the kings judgment is a wild thing to do to a child hostage) its that he was prepared to kill a innocent child which he pretends hes against

.

This was never my home. I was a hostage here. Lord Stark had not treated him cruelly, but the long steel shadow of his greatsword had always been between them. He was kind to me, but never warm. He knew that one day he might need to put me to death.

.

Eta

Edited by Hugorfonics

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15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its not that Ned treated Theon badly (although making him stand by Ice for the kings judgment is a wild thing to do to a child hostage) its that he was prepared to kill a innocent child which he pretends hes against

Theon may believe that, but everything that we know about Ned goes contrary to what Theon thinks. Ned took Jon with the consequences that we know, thinks frequently about Rhaegar's murdered children. His friendship with Robert broke down because of it. He has a fight with Robert over his plans to have Dany and her unborn child murdered, tries to get the Lannister children out of King's Landing and away from Robert. 

I think Ned would have done everything in his power to spare Theon's life if it came to it. 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Theon may believe that, but everything that we know about Ned goes contrary to what Theon thinks. Ned took Jon with the consequences that we know, thinks frequently about Rhaegar's murdered children. His friendship with Robert broke down because of it. He has a fight with Robert over his plans to have Dany and her unborn child murdered, tries to get the Lannister children out of King's Landing and away from Robert. 

I think Ned would have done everything in his power to spare Theon's life if it came to it. 

Well when it came to Dany he gave up his power so you may be right, but I dont think so. Ned would have done his duty, even if it means killing kids. Thats at least how his son and peers remember him

.

So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?"

Ask Janos Slynt. "Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark."

Edited by Hugorfonics

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6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Davos being a low born criminal in the first place is a brilliant stroke of story telling here, particularly in the shadow of Ned's bright honorable light.  It would be a very different story without the likes of Davos or Brienne or Sam.

 

Davos seems more unique than them. All the other main POVs are nobles, which is striking considering the self-consciously modern critique of aristocracy in the series.

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16 hours ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

When you think of it, it probably isn't an unique thought.

Ned Stark was killed in Book One, but his noble spirit has lived on. Despite being dead into death, Davos Seaworth is very much low key replacement for Ned Stark role in the books: when you think more closely, both are individual characters, with noble soul, strong connection to the Baratheon kings as friendly advisor or more indept friend, humble to the bones, and truth loving men.

Of course, I don't think they are same man, just that they fullfill practically same slot into the book

That they both can speak to their "kings" and express disagreement is all they really have in common.  Ned killed Sansa's dog even when he knew she wasn't the guilty animal.  Davos saved the life of an innocent boy even though his king wanted to give him to the flame.  Ned was willing to let Robert murder a pregnant teenager. 

Ned was a man who understood his place in the world.  Those rules and customs is what keeps the ruling families in power.  His family is a beneficiary of those rigid rules and social order.  Thus, he will follow them to the letter.  Davos enjoyed no such position.  He will break rules as he sees fit if they conflict with his opinion.  It doesn't mean he's better.  Inconsistency leads to injustice.  But I wanted to point out one of the major differences between these two fellows. 

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1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

That they both can speak to their "kings" and express disagreement is all they really have in common.  Ned killed Sansa's dog even when he knew she wasn't the guilty animal.  Davos saved the life of an innocent boy even though his king wanted to give him to the flame.  Ned was willing to let Robert murder a pregnant teenager. 

Ned was a man who understood his place in the world.  Those rules and customs is what keeps the ruling families in power.  His family is a beneficiary of those rigid rules and social order.  Thus, he will follow them to the letter.  Davos enjoyed no such position.  He will break rules as he sees fit if they conflict with his opinion.  It doesn't mean he's better.  Inconsistency leads to injustice.  But I wanted to point out one of the major differences between these two fellows. 

Ned hiding Jon isnt exactly the same as Davos protecting Edric, but Ned took a similar risk. I dont see Davos as a rule breaker when it comes to feudalism. He''s a kneeler through and through.

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6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont see Davos as a rule breaker when it comes to feudalism. He''s a kneeler through and through.

I disagree, Davos justified his disobedience to the absolute monarch (which Westeros certainly has, none more then Stannis) by citing his words and what Davos agreed to when he became a lord. Its not a constitutional monarch but its certainly a good precedent towards something more liberal then Stannis' war on everyone.

 

"Four of my sons died for you on the Blackwater. I might have died myself. You have my loyalty, always." Davos Seaworth had thought long and hard about the words he said next; he knew his life depended on them. "Your Grace, you made me swear to give you honest counsel and swift obedience, to defend your realm against your foes, to protect your people. Is not Edric Storm one of your people? One of those I swore to protect? I kept my oath. How could that be treason?"

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I disagree, Davos justified his disobedience to the absolute monarch (which Westeros certainly has, none more then Stannis) by citing his words and what Davos agreed to when he became a lord. Its not a constitutional monarch but its certainly a good precedent towards something more liberal then Stannis' war on everyone.

It's the line most characters are walking when they participate. "You have my loyalty, always" doesn't sound modern to me. He is conflicted but still loyal. It's really not that remarkable. Considering all the betrayals and treasons in the novels, there are more people than just Davos disobeying an absolute monarch.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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26 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's the line most characters are walking when they participate. "You have my loyalty, always" doesn't sound modern to me

Idk if modern is the word your looking for. Theyre are lots of constitutional monarchs out there that are far removed from the tyranny of Stannis, or like King John of England, but perpetual loyalty to the monarch is still (I think, im not from a monarchy and not close to an expert) a thing. 

Recently the British monarch has been in the news and defended by loyalists, but defending the institution or the particular persons, not the tyranny of their ancestors.

37 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He is conflicted but still loyal

I dont really see any confliction, Davos is apparently loyal to the oath he swore to his king, theres no conflict, loyalty to his king means saving young Storm

42 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's really not that remarkable.

Lol nah its fuckin brilliant, able to navigate the legality of a tyrants dream like an onion smuggler sailing to Storms End

44 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Considering all the betrayals and treasons in the novels, there are more people than just Davos disobeying an absolute monarch.

Like whom? I can think of Karstark, didnt work out for him. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol nah its fuckin brilliant, able to navigate the legality of a tyrants dream like an onion smuggler sailing to Storms End

His personal backstory is interesting but I think it would be more interesting if he decided to not follow ANY king the moment Stannis wanted to burn Edric. Like why is he so desperate to suck Stannis' dick? He "Believes In Him" or some nonsense?

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like whom? I can think of Karstark, didnt work out for him. 

the Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons with Aerys, Dorne with the Lannisters, Theon with Robb, Tyrion with Joffrey, Jon with Mance's child, Jon with the Watch, the Watch with Jon, the freefolk, Arya with everyone?

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:
 

His personal backstory is interesting but I think it would be more interesting if he decided to not follow ANY king the moment Stannis wanted to burn Edric. Like why is he so desperate to suck Stannis' dick? He "Believes In Him" or some nonsense?

Hes grateful for his thumbs. 

Hes also got a wife and kids somewhere under Stannis' eye thumb and another son blatantly under Stannis and Melisandres control. 

I do think its more then that though. Stannis may try to act like a piece of shit king but since Davos swore to defend Stannis' kingdom it is Davos' responsibility for keeping the realm lawful and his king as little of a piece of shit as possible. And for him to realize that and even convince Stannis of that is pretty special

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:
the Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons with Aerys, Theon with Robb, 

Well thats just open war, not in your face after blatantly disregarding your orders like Janos Slynt

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dorne with the Lannisters

In Joffs coronation when nobody not named Stokeworth showed up? True, but thats small potatoes

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Tyrion with Joffrey, Jon with Mance's child, Arya with everyone?

Again there was never a clear cut situation of disobeying an absolute ruler. Especially with Tyrion, he was a good little imp. (Also Joffs absolutism was super confusing because he was underage and Tyrion was only acting hand for thay time)

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:
, Jon with the Watch, the Watch with Jon, the freefolk, 

That led to war though and Jon proved what the nights king proved, LCs arent absolute (although hopefully dictator Snow comes back and proves me wrong lol)

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hes grateful for his thumbs. 

That sounds so feudal though! Most criminals don't want to swear allegiance to the judge who gave them a mutilation sentence.

Quote

Hes also got a wife and kids somewhere under Stannis' eye thumb and another son blatantly under Stannis and Melisandres control. 

So they're brainwashed.... :commie:Danger danger does not sound like a healthy situation even more reason to get off this train...

Quote

I do think its more then that though. Stannis may try to act like a piece of shit king but since Davos swore to defend Stannis' kingdom it is Davos' responsibility for keeping the realm lawful and his king as little of a piece of shit as possible. And for him to realize that and even convince Stannis of that is pretty special

He's doing the best he can with the guy. But I still don't think it's that remarkable. Maybe he only appears that way because Stannis is SUCH an ass and the smallfolk are SUCH sheep. Still think others are pushing back against the feudal authorities, not just Davos. 

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