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Lady Winter Rose

Ned Stark was fairly starkly replaced by Davos Seaworth

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"We heard tales that Stannis burned his Hand."

The Hand who went before me. Melisandre had given Alester Florent to her god on Dragonstone, to conjure up the wind that bore them north. Lord Florent had been strong and silent as the queen's men bound him to the post, as dignified as any half-naked man could hope to be, but as the flames licked up his legs he had begun to scream, and his screams had blown them all the way to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, if the red woman could be believed. Davos had misliked that wind. It had seemed to him to smell of burning flesh, and the sound of it was anguished as it played amongst the lines. It could as easily have been me. 

 

I also wanted to bring up this passage because it's C-R-A-Z-Y.

It's interesting how Robert, despite his hatred of the Lannisters, never got to the point where he would let a magician burn his wife's family alive. In fact I kind of respect Robert for not caring about magic at all. Also the passage is just so ominous and Davos is still so grateful for the opportunity to serve his king-who-could-have-killed-him. Davos sounds like a man in a hostage situation who is grateful they only took out the guy next to him.

 

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15 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ned hiding Jon isnt exactly the same as Davos protecting Edric, but Ned took a similar risk.

Nope, Davos did so openly and was arrested.

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I dont see Davos as a rule breaker when it comes to feudalism. He''s a kneeler through and through.

Sending away Edric was breaking a rule. So was attempting to murder Melisandre.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That sounds so feudal though! Most criminals don't want to swear allegiance to the judge who gave them a mutilation sentence.

So they're brainwashed.... :commie:Danger danger does not sound like a healthy situation even more reason to get off this train...

On a scale of Dany to Irri it could be healthier. Better then like a Reek Ramsay scale. But yea brainwashed is brainwashed which is why Jorah wears fur and steel in a 90 degree whore house. Knights are nuts.

But theyre also kinda cool

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So many come to see me die, thought Dunk bitterly, but he wronged them. A few steps farther on, a woman called out, "Good fortune to you." An old man stepped up to take his hand and said, "May the gods give you strength, ser." Then a begging brother in a tattered brown robe said a blessing on his sword, and a maid kissed his cheek. They are for me. "Why?" he asked Pate. "What am I to them?"

"A knight who remembered his vows," the smith said.

Davos is a hand who remembered his vows.

According to this logi the king is near immaterial really. Who he wants to burn and how much lighter fluid he wants to use can be his jurisdiction thats just best not to dwell on. (Alster was really dumb treasonous tho)

 

Woah!! Ok, check it. New theory. Stannis is going to burn Devan thinking its Davos all to the delight of Melisandre. Thatll flip the onion.

:D I did it! Ya heard it here first.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He's doing the best he can with the guy. But I still don't think it's that remarkable. Maybe he only appears that way because Stannis is SUCH an ass and the smallfolk are SUCH sheep.

Its a shame he left Stannis' side after the breakthrough, fortunately Jon was there to remind Stannis that hes his equal, kind of.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Still think others are pushing back against the feudal authorities, not just Davos

Like Shagga. Catelyns got some type of pull but shes still tightening her grip on Robbs crown so thats not great. 

Regardless, none of the others have been treason sanctioned hands

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Regardless, none of the others have been treason sanctioned hands

It was only "treason" because Stannis was an ass. Not impressed. Sorry.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its a shame he left Stannis' side after the breakthrough, fortunately Jon was there to remind Stannis that hes his equal, kind of.

What's REALLY a shame is that Davos can only aspire to handle Stannis with kid gloves for the rest of his life. Talk about an abusive boss. He deserves better.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Davos is a hand who remembered his vows.

What use is that when he's following a train off a cliff? His morals are in the right place, but that shouldn't stop us from asking if we should trust his judgment. I don't trust Davos with Stannis, Barristan with Dany, or Ned with Robert. They have serious blindspots. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Knights are nuts.

But theyre also kinda cool

In a "glad I'm reading fiction" kind of way. Let's not stan these people.

George called Arya a psychopath and it was a shock to many readers that he would say it. I thought that was very interesting because it showed how they were desensitized to it and how readers may be normalizing violence.

No person with their head on straight IRL calls psychopaths "cool." 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

George called Arya a psychopath and it was a shock to many readers that he would say it. I thought that was very interesting because it showed how they were desensitized to it and how readers may be normalizing violence.

This tired topic again? Really?

Unless he was... you know.... joking. And most readers knew that especially those in the audience who laughing along with George or actually read his books a saw the joke for what it was. 

:read:

 

Edited by a black swan

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

George called Arya a psychopath and it was a shock to many readers that he would say it. I thought that was very interesting because it showed how they were desensitized to it and how readers may be normalizing violence.

No person with their head on straight IRL calls psychopaths "cool." 

It was also a shock to many readers that George is apparently a dwarf and a hot chick riding a dragon. But because he said this in the same breath while calling Arya a psychopath, he must have been serious about being a dwarf and a hot chick. Because we all know George has no sense of humor and never, ever jokes.

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Davos is not noble.  I would say he has principles but he is not unique in that.  It is Ser Barristan Selmy to me who has the role of a good and noble patriarch.  But unlike Ned, Barry has no biological children of his own and thus will not be compromised in his devotion to his Queen Daenerys.  

Many fans of Daenerys like Ned.  Myself included.  But he is not as noble as many believe.  His manners are gruff and he has a quick temper.  Ned is a brave man for sure.  I am not so sure about Davos.  Davos ran his mouth in Manderly's court and Ser Jared made him back down.  I don't think Davos would have made that insult if he had not had the protection of Manderly's household.  Ned would have gone down fighting.  Davos is a more practical man.  

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6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It was only "treason" because Stannis was an ass. Not impressed. Sorry

I blame Melisandre mostly. Stannis didnt want to kill his nephew but was goaded by his witch, who actually had no intention of burning Edric and made up the stoned dragon story just to get Davos off his ass (Melisandre saw and wished for Davos to get charmed by Edric)

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What's REALLY a shame is that Davos can only aspire to handle Stannis with kid gloves for the rest of his life. Talk about an abusive boss. He deserves better.

But Westeros deserves a good hand. Think on Claw Isle, Stannis would have massacred all those poor bastards if it werent for Davos' position.

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What use is that when he's following a train off a cliff? His morals are in the right place, but that shouldn't stop us from asking if we should trust his judgment. I don't trust Davos with Stannis, Barristan with Dany, or Ned with Robert. They have serious blindspots. 

I disagree that Dany is a bad role model for Selmy but yea I agree that the majority of Neds handship was pitiful to the point of disgusting but I see what your saying about Davos.

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

In a "glad I'm reading fiction" kind of way. Let's not stan these people.

George called Arya a psychopath and it was a shock to many readers that he would say it. I thought that was very interesting because it showed how they were desensitized to it and how readers may be normalizing violence.

No person with their head on straight IRL calls psychopaths "cool." 

Um, I like the craze. My fav two are Tyrion and Ramsay, both straight looneys. Both cool as fuck. 

Quote

"Mercy," she said. "My name is Mercy. Can you say it?"

"Mercy," he said. "My name is Raff."

"I know."

I cant imagine a cooler conversation, or a more psychopathic one. Not that I think Arya (or Tyrion) is lost, shes sick. But mental illness can be cured, especially when its regarding ignorant children

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

No person with their head on straight IRL calls psychopaths "cool." 

John Brown was only stripped of his psychopathic title in the 70s, over a hundred years after the state hanged him until he suffocated. But even if historians didnt change their minds, Reverend John Brown was mad cool, even if like 5 of his sons hanged with him

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I blame Melisandre mostly. Stannis didnt want to kill his nephew but was goaded by his witch, who actually had no intention of burning Edric and made up the stoned dragon story just to get Davos off his ass (Melisandre saw and wished for Davos to get charmed by Edric)

Why not blame them both? Stannis keeps her on his staff. He's a grown ass man. Also, how do you know she was never planning to burn him? We dont have her POV. 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But Westeros deserves a good hand. Think on Claw Isle, Stannis would have massacred all those poor bastards if it werent for Davos' position.

They deserve a good king first. It's harder to enact substantive, fundamental change if the Hand is spending all of their time and energy trying to stop the king from being a dipshit.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Um, I like the craze. My fav two are Tyrion and Ramsay, both straight looneys. Both cool as fuck. 

So you like them because they're bad. Villain cool. It's why I like Cersei. I wouldn't use the word "cool" to describe her actions though. "Isn't it cool how she twisted baby Tyrion's penis?" Lmao

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I cant imagine a cooler conversation, or a more psychopathic one. Not that I think Arya (or Tyrion) is lost, shes sick. But mental illness can be cured, especially when its regarding ignorant children

Yeah, I think she has psychopathic tendencies that I dont think are permanent (but could be). It's good to see you calling that passage psychopathic - I would be more worried if you were just calling it badass and stopping there. If GRRM wants to examine the tragedy of child soldiers in wartime and how this environment damages their psyche, he may be confusing readers a bit if their takeaway is, "wow she's such a cool assassin with mad skillz."

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5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Why not blame them both? Stannis keeps her on his staff. He's a grown ass man

For all the brainwashed Westerosi are few are as single minded as Stannis. He is the absolute ruler of Westeros and like all absolute rulers since Aegon III hes got a fundamental problem flexing his absolute pimp hand. Aegon the dragon could flex and if Stannis gets a stoned dragon then he can flex too.

Thats my 2 cents on why Stannis' pride can be rationalized, but how he justifies it isnt that wild either. To save the world. White Walkers are real and the Fists of First Men did happen. Melisandre wormtounging his ear explaining how hes the messiah and Edric has goofy ears will start to do a number.

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Also, how do you know she was never planning to burn him? We dont have her POV

Davos arrives in Dragonstone to kill Melisandre but runs into, or better yet, Edric runs into him. After a brief discussion the Queens Men jump out behind the curtains and arrest Davos for attempted murder. When Stannis releases him from jail he asks if he met Edric, after Davos says sure Stannis says "As she wished. As she saw. Did he charm you? He has that gift" 

Its really mind boggling but Melisandre went out of her way to make sure Davos saves Edric. Not really sure why. (Outlook not good for Shireen and Devan)

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

They deserve a good king first. It's harder to enact substantive, fundamental change if the Hand is spending all of their time and energy trying to stop the king from being a dipshit.

I like the precedent it sets, nor would I call Davos' time with the kings men as all his time, as he brokers peace with White Harbor and convinces Saan to stay with Stannis, although failing in both.

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

So you like them because they're bad. Villain cool. It's why I like Cersei. I wouldn't use the word "cool" to describe her actions though. "Isn't it cool how she twisted baby Tyrion's penis?" Lmao

Lol it was entertaining (love Cersei). I really would not call Tyrion a villain though, despite his horrendous raping of the Volantis slave. Like I wouldnt call Ned a villain for executing poor Jared or call Dany a villain for 163 crucifixions.

I do think Tyrions going insane though, as he replays the sound of the crossbow continuously hitting his father. And it makes superb storytelling

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, I think she has psychopathic tendencies that I dont think are permanent (but could be). It's good to see you calling that passage psychopathic - I would be more worried if you were just calling it badass and stopping there. If GRRM wants to examine the tragedy of child soldiers in wartime and how this environment damages their psyche, he may be confusing readers a bit if their takeaway is, "wow she's such a cool assassin with mad skillz."

Aryas fucking wild. When a faceless assassin calls you an evil child its time to look in the mirror, or shrug it off like Arya. Even in the first book we see Arya taking baby steps to the dark side

Quote

Her lord father had taught her never to steal, but it was growing harder to remember why.

But you know, I dont mind a villain lol. (Not saying Arya is)

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Posted (edited)
On 3/15/2021 at 12:24 AM, sifth said:

I don’t recall Ned ever treating Theon badly. He basically had him grow up with his children.

Except the holding him prisoner when he hadn't done anything wrong thing. 

Edited by Walter White

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46 minutes ago, Walter White said:

Except the holding him prisoner when he gadn't done anything wrong thing. 

Well Theon's family did kind of commit treason. There's a huge difference between how Theon was treated by the Starks, compared to how he was treated by the Baltons, which to be honest is how hostages usually are treated. Heck Theon got a better deal than Sansa, who was regularly beat and humiliated, just for Joff's amusement.   

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59 minutes ago, sifth said:

Well Theon's family did kind of commit treason. There's a huge difference between how Theon was treated by the Starks, compared to how he was treated by the Baltons, which to be honest is how hostages usually are treated. Heck Theon got a better deal than Sansa, who was regularly beat and humiliated, just for Joff's 

I doubt most captors treat their prisoners like Joffrey does.

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3 hours ago, sifth said:

Well Theon's family did kind of commit treason. There's a huge difference between how Theon was treated by the Starks, compared to how he was treated by the Baltons, which to be honest is how hostages usually are treated. Heck Theon got a better deal than Sansa, who was regularly beat and humiliated, just for Joff's amusement.   

The Boltons are far from the standard, tho what Joff did was more or less the standard, with the exception of her being his betrothed.

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7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The Boltons are far from the standard, tho what Joff did was more or less the standard, with the exception of her being his betrothed.

No George says highborn captives are normally treated decently. Joffrey is a psychopath and Theon treated Bran and Rickon Just as well when as Ned treated him when he took them yet no one is complaining about how much they owe Theon.

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1 hour ago, Walter White said:

No George says highborn captives are normally treated decently. Joffrey is a psychopath and Theon treated Bran and Rickon Just as well when as Ned treated him when he took them yet no one is complaining about how much they owe Theon.

I don't disagree, but Sansa was a Hostage against her borther, who was in open rebellion, I think a mistreatment of her would be expected if she wasn't Joff's betrothed. 

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1 hour ago, Walter White said:

No George says highborn captives are normally treated decently. Joffrey is a psychopath and Theon treated Bran and Rickon Just as well when as Ned treated him when he took them yet no one is complaining about how much they owe Theon.

Yea, you know we never get any chapters confirming Theon’s treatment of Bran or Rickon, so your statement is questionable at best.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't disagree, but Sansa was a Hostage against her borther, who was in open rebellion, I think a mistreatment of her would be expected if she wasn't Joff's betrothed. 

Yea, because I’m sure Joff would have been kind to her had Robb not been causing trouble for the Lannisters. 

Edited by sifth

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8 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, because I’m sure Joff would have been kind to her had Robb not been causing trouble for the Lannisters. 

No, he wouldn't, but another man might have treated her the same way Joffrey did without needing to be a psycho. 

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