Is Brienne idealizing Jaime?

[Alma11]

Hi, I don’t know if this question was asked before, but while I was reading Brienne’s chapter, I had this feeling that she sees, or does want to see only a part of Jaime, the best part.                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Brienne’s story begins with a strong disdain for Jaime: she won’t call him by his name, just Kingslayer, or worse, monster:

 

“I've had a bellyful of silence, woman."

"Talk with Ser Cleos then. I have no words for monsters."

Jaime hooted. "Are there monsters hereabouts? Hiding beneath the water, perhaps? In that thick of willows? And me without my sword!"

 

A Storm of Swords, Jaime I

 

 

And then things happen, they’re caught, he loses his hand, she nurses him, he tells her Aery’s story, he comes back for her – and I would like to add that when Brienne realizes Jaime came back, she says:

 

He put his good hand on the marble rail and vaulted over, rolling as he hit the sand. The bear turned at the thump, sniffing, watching this new intruder warily. Jaime scrambled to one knee. Well, what in seven hells do I do now? He filled his fist with sand. "Kingslayer?" he heard Brienne say, astonished.

"Jaime." He uncoiled, flinging the sand at the bear's face. The bear mauled the air and roared like blazes.

 

A Storm of Swords, Jaime VI

 

 

So, in her mind, until that moment, Jaime is the Kingslayer. Later he gives her the mission to find Sansa and, in the first Brienne’s chapter in AFFC we can see a radical change of mind regarding Jaime. He’s the Kingslayer anymore. He’s just Ser Jaime or Jaime. She can’t stand other people speaking ill of him and she prefixes to find his lost honour. I would like to note that she stops calling him kingslayer not when he told Aery’s story, but after he saves her from the bear and tell her he dreamed of her.

Now, I’m happy Brienne can go beyond appearances and gives a possibility to Jaime, but all that transpires from her chapters, or what I think transpires in AFFC is a vision of Jaime not as a man with virtues and flaws, but as a lost knight, a knight who is blamed, misjudged, misunderstood, a knight who saved her from real monsters, twice. 

 

She never thinks that Jaime pushed a seven year old child from a tower or that he has a romantic relationship with his (twin) sister. It seems she tries to get out from her mind that part of Jaime.

 

That Brienne is in love with Jaime is clear, what is less clear to me is her current perception of Jaime: I would almost say she has a red cross nurse behaviour (is that the word?). This desire (obsession?) to restore his honour seems a little bit exaggerated for multiple reasons:

1)      It’s not Brienne’s job to re-found Jaime’s honour, it is his problem.

2)      Even if he saved her the first time after shouting sapphires, thereafter he went away all the same, living her with Hoat (without thinking twice)

3)      Despite the fact that he saved her etc etc, Brienne knows about Bran, but all she thinks is the promise she and Jaime made to Catelyn.

4)      They both made the oath, but he washes his hand of it, entrusting the task to Brienne only: the only thing he did was give her a sword, a mare, money (that won’t last forever), a piece of paper and tell her that the girl who was sent to the Boltons was not Arya. And so, he let her go in a land devasted by a war that is not finished, looking for a 13 year old girl nowhere to find. For what Jaime knows Sansa could perfectly be in Essos.

 

On the last point, one could say:

1)      Brienne would go to find Sansa all the same

2)      Jaime can’t leave his place as kingsguard

 

Yes, Brienne would had looking for Sansa anyway, but Jaime could had gone with her: he went to rescue Tyrion, without giving much credit to his oath as kinsguard and he went with Brienne when she popped up in his camp, even if he knew Cersei – and so possibly the king – was in danger. What I mean is: if Jaime wanted to accompanied Brienne, he would have (setting aside the fact that GRRM’s plot for Jaime was another)

Despite this, Brienne protected his honour and was ready to die for him.

That’s why I asked myself, maybe wrongly, if Brienne just want to see a part of Jaime, ignoring the rest.

 

P.s. I’m not saying Brienne shouldn’t love Jaime or that she is wrong to love him, but I ask myself: if GRRM want Jaime and Brienne to be The love story (based on his love for Beauty and the Beast), why Brienne doesn’t dwell on the character of Jaime as an all and comes to term with his dark side, without passing him as a man misunderstood (even if sometimes he is)?

P.p.s sorry for errors, English is not my first language.

[Walter White]

I think it's because George kind of wants everyone to shrug of Jaime's crimes like Brienne does.

[Ser Lepus]

He is a strong and handsome man who kind of likes and respects her... of course she wants him to be a good man.

I don't think she believes Jamie could ever be her lover, but she likes him and doesn't want him to be a monster... Nobody wants to accept that the people they like are evil...

[WhatAnArtist!]

From Brienne's perspective, it makes complete sense for her to come to idealise him to some degree, or at least show him a decent amount of respect. He saved her from being gangraped, and later saved her from being ripped apart by a bear. He didn't have to do either of these things, and put himself at risk both times for her sake. He also convinced Ser Loras to give her another chance, and then sent her to find the Stark girls, to fulfil both of their oaths to Catelyn Stark. In Brienne's eyes, he's more than redeemed himself. Brienne is one of the intensely moral and honourable characters in the series, so if she views Jaime in a positive light, I think it's earned. This is not a woman that casually forgives terrible actions. If she accepts Jaime, it means a lot.

[Curled Finger]

Sorry, curmudgeon that I can be, I don't see a love story here.   I see knights from opposite ends of the spectrum.  Brienne has been kicked around and misunderstood all her life.  Jamie's been laughed at and feared and misunderstood for half of his once glorious life.  They are incomplete in the shadows of their dreams when they meet, disenchanted, disabused and disconnected from their better knightly selves.   They want the same thing in this career choice, to serve, protect and feel a sense of personal honor.  

They open each others' eyes to the other end of their spectrums--Jamie finds a knight he believes in and Brienne finds a knight who though soiled has no hesitation in protecting her.   Brienne doesn't need a whole lot of protection.  They are thrown together in extraordinary circumstances and became the focal point of the experience.  They both found someone to believe in.   Jamie gave Brienne his Valyrian Steel sword.   Jamie named it Oathkeeper, perhaps in tribute to Brienne.   He trusted her completely.  I imagine all Brienne saw was finally someone--anyone--who supported her.  Wow.  

We read Brienne tell why she was devoted to Renly--it boils down to Renly treating her with respect and she was so grateful.  While Renly may not have understood Brienne, Jamie at least gets her "knighthood".  If a single dance could inspire our lady to become Renly's protector at the time this happened what should we expect as we read what Jamie does for her?  Her gratitude is boundless. Further, Jamie and Brienne are in cahoots--Brienne has a wonderful secret mission for this man.  

The OP is not far off here. Love affair or not, there is a bit of idealism between our knights.  Brienne can live out Jamie's honor fantasies and perhaps do it better, but he is her facilitator.  Both of these characters have something really good in their association.  I'm not sure idealized is how I might describe this.  Brienne only considers what really matters to her.   I think it's possible she understands Jamie's motives, certainly for killing the king and maybe even for tossing Bran.   Took me a long time to get there because Jamie was such a great bad guy and I wouldn't toss a little kid, but there is no one like Jamie Lannister, is there?    Perhaps Brienne knows Jamie well enough to accept the horrible things he's done for love.   

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

It’s hard to idealize someone when you’ve already seen them at their worst. If anything, her image of Renly the shiny copper king is much more idealized. Jaime earned her respect, and the two of them forged a bond that comes from extreme circumstances.
 

Something that I don’t see brought up often is that Jaime is actually pretty damn tough—he spent months in chains and filth and still tried to fight his way free at his first chance, then he survived a nearly fatal injury and, when he had the chance to finally run free, came back to climb into a goddamn bear pit on the off-chance that he’d last long enough for the bear to be put down. Brienne is stunned by how well he fights when he tries to escape early on in ASOS. Jaime isn’t the perfect knight she idolizes, but he is every bit the warrior she always admired.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I think it's a complicated situation.

First off, Brienne is an idealist. As he does with Sansa, GRRM depicts Brienne's idealism as both a strength and a weakness. A strength in that it provides her with inspiration for brave and selfless actions; a weakness in that her reading of people and their motives is often hopelessly simplified, at least at first. 

Her interactions with Jaime (and later with Hyle Hunt) demonstrate that her attitudes toward people can change, and can even grow in subtlety. I do think she's still idealizing Jaime to some extent, but she can at least appreciate his predicament of feeling crushed by the weight of his competing oaths: a complexity she simply could not comprehend when she first met him. Moreover, she still doesn't necessarily like Hyle Hunt, but she learns to trust him more. He may not be good, but he's not all bad. That demonstrates progress for Brienne; she's both becoming more confident in herself, and more perceptive of the world around her...even though she has a ways to go.

Lady Stoneheart's trial seems to be the ultimate test for Brienne's reverence of oaths, she is torn between her life and Podrick's versus the life of Jaime. I rarely agree with Preston Jacobs, but I quite liked his recent Brienne videos, and I agree that real growth on Brienne's part would be to find some way to break out of the strictures imposed by LSH, and define her morality on her own terms. If she did that, it would show that she could truly own up to the moral complexities and challenges of "real life" as opposed to the songs, without losing her own moral compass.

 

[Haus Berlin]

I wonder if moral is really Brienne’s issue. People seem to think so. But she supported Renly’s war against his own brother even though he had no claim. And when Jaime damned Robert‘s actions as a king when they were in Harrenhal, she simply brushed it off with something alike „Robert did all he did for love.“ So it’s not that far from excusing anything Jaime did for the same reason. Her first POV even gets us something like „Jaime Lannister did many whicked things, but oh this man can fight!“ (Note the exclamation mark we seldom get in thoughts.) Yeah, I don’t think Brienne is a good judge and I await in horror what things will be done in the name of her love.

Love she idealises - not men. (Similar to Lyanna Stark. And look where this took us.)