Falcon and The Winter Soldier (spoilers)

[Jaxom 1974]

41 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't think this logic follows.  At least..if I follow your logic correctly.  So you're saying since Steve took the space stone in 1970 - before Loki took it in 2012 - that that would negate it, right?  But that's not how it'd work.  If Steve took the stonePal♀ 93 in 1970 then brought it back in 1970, then it's safe to assume Loki still would have did what he did in 2012.  To negate the later action, they'd have to go back to 2012 and get Hulk to wait for the elevator or whatever, basically what happens in Family Guy's Back to the Pilot episode. 

I mean, you're right that they never seem to be worried about this, but that doesn't mean it's not still a glaring problem.  Sorry if all that doesn't make sense, tried to be as clear as possible but it's hard and the drinking doesn't help.

Yeah. What I'm saying is that Steve went back to 1970 and returned the stone there and that they absolutely dropped the entire issue with Loki taking the stone in 2012.  2012 was not part of, nor is there any indication it was, Steve's mission to return the stones.  I'm suggesting it's a glaring plot hole.  Or is it...if the Loki series is actually going to address this.

[SpaceChampion]

Isn't Sharon the granddaughter of Peggy's brother?  That makes her a grand-niece.  But she shares no DNA with Cap more recent than a hundred years ago and possibly tens of thousands of years ago.  They're not blood relatives.

[Leofric]

51 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Yeah. What I'm saying is that Steve went back to 1970 and returned the stone there and that they absolutely dropped the entire issue with Loki taking the stone in 2012.  2012 was not part of, nor is there any indication it was, Steve's mission to return the stones.  I'm suggesting it's a glaring plot hole.  Or is it...if the Loki series is actually going to address this.

The avengers returned all the stones that were displaced in time, including the Tessact they took in 1970.    In Endgame, when they returned to the present they didn't know Loki had ran off with the Tesseract in 2012, so Steve wouldn't have known he needed to try and find it and return it.     But since their timeline doesn't appear to have changed significantly, either the Tesseract was returned somehow, possibly it will be explained in the new Loki show, or the fact that Loki had just used it to escape his location, but didn't mess with time by doing so, the Universe was able to self correct enough that the original Thanos was still able to collect it from Loki at the right time (and kill him again?), so the original Snap happened as before.  

[RumHam]

13 minutes ago, Leofric said:

The avengers returned all the stones that were displaced in time, including the Tessact they took in 1970.    In Endgame, when they returned to the present they didn't know Loki had ran off with the Tesseract in 2012, so Steve wouldn't have known he needed to try and find it and return it.     But since their timeline doesn't appear to have changed significantly, either the Tesseract was returned somehow, possibly it will be explained in the new Loki show, or the fact that Loki had just used it to escape his location, but didn't mess with time by doing so, the Universe was able to self correct enough that the original Thanos was still able to collect it from Loki at the right time (and kill him again?), so the original Snap happened as before.  

? 

They knew Loki had run off with it. That's why they had to go further back in time to the 70's. 

Also I still maintain each jump creates a new reality branch regardless of whether you fuck with the stones or not, and Cap returning the stones unnoticed is impossible.  He's just minimizing the damage and apologizing, basically. 

Bonus, all those timelines get a warning about Hyrda and Thanos, because he doesn't have to worry about not fucking with anything. 

 

[DMC]

47 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

But she shares no DNA with Cap more recent than a hundred years ago and possibly tens of thousands of years ago.  They're not blood relatives.

I mean, yeah, but what's your point here?  I don't have any great aunts (that I know of at least), but I do have three aunts that are not blood relatives, or wives to my mom's half brothers.  Still be really fucked up to make out with them.  I feel like this argument belongs at the top of the forum with the (relatively) recent Stark family tree showing uncles marrying their nieces. 

14 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Also I still maintain each jump creates a new reality branch regardless of whether you fuck with the stones or not, and Cap returning the stones unnoticed is impossible.  He's just minimizing the damage and apologizing, basically. 

I dunno, it's plausible all the others were returned without any damage done.  The power stone should be really easy - you just put it back while Quill is still knocked out.  Time stone too, just give it back to Swinton.  Mind stone..well, 2012 Cap is knocked out like Quill, so if you time it exactly right.  Even if not, could explain it to whomever although I'd suppose that could fuck things up.  Reality stone just give it back to Frigga.  Soul stone would be interesting.  Pretty sure the Russo brothers (or maybe it was the screenwriters) said Cap returning the stones could be a movie in and of itself.  Him returning it to Red Skull would definitely be the climax.

[DaveSumm]

Quote

Based on Banner's conversation with Swinton I'd say the more accurate description is Cap went back within the main timeline to prevent any shifts, which is pretty much what Banner promised her. 

I don’t think this is quite correct, the Ancient One says “if you take the stone, your reality will be fine but mine won’t”, and he then offers to return it.

6 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Thing about the returning of the stones...Steve took the space stone back to 1970...despite the fact that Loki disappeared with the same stone 32 years later is secondary.  There is zero indication it was ever thought about that there is a problem with the first attempt at getting the Tesseract.   But that's ths speculation of the Loki show, right? That it has something to do with the Tesseract going back where it belongs...

This right here, is the one big drawback of the ‘main timeline’ theory. Everything about the Avengers actions indicates that they’re treating these realities as sandboxes to do as they please. In fact, we don’t even need to talk about Cap: the Ancient One tells Bruce her reality is fucked without a time stone, but then we never see that conversation with the others. Was that pre-discussed, that they’d return them? Or did Bruce wing that response? Did he know they’d be screwed? Did Cap return and say “oh by the way Loki escaped” and Bruce was all “oh shit, I just found out this all does matter!”

I’m optimistic that the Loki show will deal with this stuff, it seems like there’s a whole agency dedicated to tidying these things up. It’s just difficult to see a path where that Loki exists, but the Avengers didn’t just casually ruin other realities.

[The Anti-Targ]

7 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Yeah. What I'm saying is that Steve went back to 1970 and returned the stone there and that they absolutely dropped the entire issue with Loki taking the stone in 2012.  2012 was not part of, nor is there any indication it was, Steve's mission to return the stones.  I'm suggesting it's a glaring plot hole.  Or is it...if the Loki series is actually going to address this.

It's not really a plot hole, because as Bruce Banner explains it in Endgame, you can't change the present by changing the past. And that is pretty much the "scientific" consensus about time travel. If some disturbance happens in the past which would appear to alter the course of the present, stuff gets rejigged to ensure there is no time paradox. And as Tilda Swinton says, you just make an alternative timeline, which completes the explanation Banner gave about how time travel works. In the Endgame history the 2012 team never turns up and Loki doesn't escape with the stone, they just go to 1970.

I would like to see a limited series where Chris Evans returns as Cap and has adventures in returning the stones to their original timeline. Probably do 2 stones per episode. I really want Cap to have a conversation with Red Skull.

[Heartofice]

What I don’t understand on this show is who is and isn’t a super soldier. I was under the impression that new Cap and Battlestar Galactica were both super soldiers, otherwise why even try to give them a costume? But then it doesn’t seem like they are, so they would get their arse handed to them by basically everyone.

And then thinking about Falcon, he’s really just a guy with some fancy wings.. he’s not even wearing a helmet for Christ’s sake! What happens if he crashes? His head and neck get crushed and it’s bye bye. 

 

[Liffguard]

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

What I don’t understand on this show is who is and isn’t a super soldier. I was under the impression that new Cap and Battlestar Galactica were both super soldiers, otherwise why even try to give them a costume? But then it doesn’t seem like they are, so they would get their arse handed to them by basically everyone.

And then thinking about Falcon, he’s really just a guy with some fancy wings.. he’s not even wearing a helmet for Christ’s sake! What happens if he crashes? His head and neck get crushed and it’s bye bye. 

 

Ever since the first Avengers movie I've always just kind of turned my brain off about how strong different superheroes actually are and how it makes any sense for regular people to fight alongside them. Hawkeye doesn't even have super-tech wings, just a bow and arrow. In theory, anybody with enough money to burn at a hunting shop could have his powers. Any random soldier should be more effective in a fight than him. So if the Falcon and the new CA and Battelstar are just fit, well-trained regular dudes with some cool toys, well, there's precedent for that.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

And that is pretty much the "scientific" consensus about time travel. If some disturbance happens in the past which would appear to alter the course of the present, stuff gets rejigged to ensure there is no time paradox.

If you’re talking about the Novikov self-consistency principle, I don’t know that I’d call it a consensus. But also, it doesn’t mention any rejigging of any kind. Just that there is one and only one history, if the Avengers stole the stone from any time, then they always did that. Loki’s disappearance (among other things) rules that out. Also, I really, really hate it as a theory.

Endgame seems to go for Deutch-ian many-world time travel (you can travel through time between worlds) with the added fictional conceit of Stark’s GPS for getting them back again. The only real problem is that none of that would lead anyone to the conclusion that these other worlds don’t exist, don’t continue existing once you leave them. So there’s an ethical problem of the Avengers using them as their own personal playgrounds.

I realise we’ve drifted off topic for the show, but I do think it’s very relevant whether Cap is sitting at home watching the news that someone other than Sam is now Cap. Or even more relevant; what do Sam and Bucky think? Do they think Cap knows about all this? Has he died? Did he tell them he was leaving for another reality? 

[Heartofice]

21 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

Ever since the first Avengers movie I've always just kind of turned my brain off about how strong different superheroes actually are and how it makes any sense for regular people to fight alongside them. Hawkeye doesn't even have super-tech wings, just a bow and arrow. In theory, anybody with enough money to burn at a hunting shop could have his powers. Any random soldier should be more effective in a fight than him. So if the Falcon and the new CA and Battelstar are just fit, well-trained regular dudes with some cool toys, well, there's precedent for that.

Probably the biggest comparison is black widow, cos at least Hawkeye has the bow and arrow thing. She has no powers at all, she’s just good at fighting and is smart. 
 

New Cap is gonna get the crap kicked out of him if everyone is a super soldier though. 
 

And I’m still worried about Falcon breaking his neck every time he flies off

[Poobah]

I just assume that the falcon suit has some nanotech in it, which is basically another word for magic, just like vibranium, edit: oh and quantum.

[Werthead]

The Ancient One does spell out how it works: removing the Infinity Stones from a point in time creates a branching timeline. Allow that timeline to continue without the Infinity Stones in place, and it will whither and die, either naturally or because the various threats the Infinity Stones defend against having nothing stopping them. Return the Infinity Stone to the point in time it was removed and the timeline will heal and the new branching timeline will be erased (though not necessarily people's memory of it, certainly not those who time-travelled through it).

So all the branching timelines created by removing the Infinity Stones have now been healed bar only the 2012 one due to the Space Stone absconding with Loki, and I suspect that will be heavily addressed in the Loki show. As I said before, my favourite resolution that plot point is "Arsehole Loki" gradually changing over the course of the show to the "Somwhat Less Arsehole Loki" of his later appearances and decided at some point to sacrifice himself by returning himself and the Stone to 2012 New York, going into custody and then following the timeline to his death at the hands of Thanos in 2018.

This does suggest that either the mainline MCU has problems in its future since the Infinity Stones have now been destroyed, or perhaps it's fine because the Infinity Stones did exist at some point in this universe's history (i.e. they're part of history, rather than simply being absent from the universe altogether) and, presumably, can be recovered in the same manner via time travel if urgently needed.

[Heartofice]

Well it also raises the question as to why you would ever give the mantle of Cap America to someone who wasn’t a super soldier.. unless it was a purely ceremonial role , you’d end up having to replace them every time there is a fight. 
 

 

[DaveSumm]

42 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well it also raises the question as to why you would ever give the mantle of Cap America to someone who wasn’t a super soldier.. unless it was a purely ceremonial role , you’d end up having to replace them every time there is a fight. 

I saw a theory that he is a super soldier, but they can’t reveal that to the public as they don’t want people knowing they’ve been experimenting with it. I mean how the hell you throw a shield (however light vibranium may be) at a target to get it to ricochet off to another target, to ricochet off again to return to you without gravity even getting a chance to take hold so it basically goes in a straight line the whole time? Sounds like super soldier stuff ... but then again, they happily included that in the promo vid for him so I guess the MCU public don’t agree.

[Jaxom 1974]

4 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I saw a theory that he is a super soldier, but they can’t reveal that to the public as they don’t want people knowing they’ve been experimenting with it. I mean how the hell you throw a shield (however light vibranium may be) at a target to get it to ricochet off to another target, to ricochet off again to return to you without gravity even getting a chance to take hold so it basically goes in a straight line the whole time? Sounds like super soldier stuff ... but then again, they happily included that in the promo vid for him so I guess the MCU public don’t agree.

First, it would be better if he had the powers that he had in the comics to start.  It would be more compelling if the man who replaced Captain America had gotten super strength via the underworld and that hung over him.

Second, the theory he's secretly superhuman doesn't track, as he'd have zero reasons to hold back in that fight with the Flag Smashers, even if Bucky and Falcon were present.

[Kalbear]

The shield has iron man tech in it now. Anyone can throw it like that if they want to. Happened in age of ultron. 

[felice]

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

The Ancient One does spell out how it works: removing the Infinity Stones from a point in time creates a branching timeline.

It's not clear that only removing an Infinity Stone would cause a branch, though; that's just the potential change under active discussion.

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

So all the branching timelines created by removing the Infinity Stones have now been healed bar only the 2012 one due to the Space Stone absconding with Loki, and I suspect that will be heavily addressed in the Loki show.

I would assume the Thanos-less 2014 branch also still exists. The Stones might have been returned, but without Thanos and his army, there's no way for future events to end up consistent with the original timeline.

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

This does suggest that either the mainline MCU has problems in its future since the Infinity Stones have now been destroyed

My understanding is they were dispersed rather than actually destroyed - their component atoms still exist scattered across the universe. They could still be carrying out any universally necessary functions that don't need a wielder to direct.

[RumHam]

40 minutes ago, felice said:

It's not clear that only removing an Infinity Stone would cause a branch, though; that's just the potential change under active discussion.

Yeah I was going to say this. Any time-travel should create an alternate timeline. In my opinion there's a timeline where the only difference is that one of Hawkeye's kids heard him call them and came downstairs to find no one there. 

Cap should have been just creating six more timelines when he attempted to return the stones, but I guess the "time GPS" avoids that somehow. 

[felice]

43 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Yeah I was going to say this. Any time-travel should create an alternate timeline. In my opinion there's a timeline where the only difference is that one of Hawkeye's kids heard him call them and came downstairs to find no one there.

My take is the universe doesn't like branching, and it only happens when the changes are too extreme to be reconciled. Possibly all branches tend towards eventual merging; the branches where the Avengers borrow then return the stones merge back into the main timeline almost immediately because the changes are insignificant, while it might be millions of years before the question of whether or not half the population of the universe vanished for five years is irrelevant ancient history. The permanent removal of an infinity stone might be one of the few changes extreme enough that the branch can never reconnect with the original timeline.