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Widowmaker 811

Was the Night’s King a bad man?

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He alleged to have sacrificed to the white walkers and married an Other.  But the oath was prohibiting marriages to other humans.   The sacrifice part is disturbing but how is it any different from the First Men.  What was the nature of the sacrifice?  If he was only giving away his babies, it’s not a sacrifice. Craster was giving his male offsprings to the white walkers. It wasn’t sacrifice. He was sending them to a new home.  
 

Marriages are used to bind two families together. His reign was a time of peace between man and the Others.  Isn’t it possible that his men saw the wisdom in this and went along?  He got caught between two kings.  The one in Winterfell feared his power.  He was even more dangerous if he was a Stark because of his claim. Joramun doesn’t want a king at the wall.  The wall was a buffer zone for him.  The wildlings have an interest in keeping the Others marginalized in numbers.  
 

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35 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

He alleged to have sacrificed to the white walkers and married an Other.  But the oath was prohibiting marriages to other humans.   The sacrifice part is disturbing but how is it any different from the First Men.  What was the nature of the sacrifice?  If he was only giving away his babies, it’s not a sacrifice. Craster was giving his male offsprings to the white walkers. It wasn’t sacrifice. He was sending them to a new home.  
 

Marriages are used to bind two families together. His reign was a time of peace between man and the Others.  Isn’t it possible that his men saw the wisdom in this and went along?  He got caught between two kings.  The one in Winterfell feared his power.  He was even more dangerous if he was a Stark because of his claim. Joramun doesn’t want a king at the wall.  The wall was a buffer zone for him.  The wildlings have an interest in keeping the Others marginalized in numbers.  
 

GRRM has made a big deal about how the Others are misunderstood without giving a hint as to what that might mean. I really hope that it amounts to more than the abomination gave us, but I’m also not sure what exactly he could be referring to.

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The NW oath states, "I shall take no wife [... and ...] father no children." It's not limited to humans.  If you accept Maester Aemon's reason for why this is in the oath, it's clear that it applies to any kind of marriage, or to any relationship that might cause a conflict between a man's emotions (love) and his duty.

A lot of readers seem to like the idea that the Others aren't evil, just misunderstood; but I remain skeptical. I'm aware that GRRM is critical of stories with simplistic characters that are pure Good or pure Evil.  So he creates characters with many shades of gray.  But those characters are human, not supernatural entities. As far as I know, there is no evidence anywhere in the books of the Others doing anything that wouldn't be described as Evil.  There's never been any sort of truce or agreement between them and humans.

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1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

GRRM has made a big deal about how the Others are misunderstood without giving a hint as to what that might mean.

Do you have a quote?

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It depends on who you ask.  The Nights King would look like a hero from the Other side.  We only heard the human side. It is completely possible for the humans to be the ones at fault.  They were taking land away from the native species of Westeros. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

He alleged to have sacrificed to the white walkers and married an Other.  But the oath was prohibiting marriages to other humans.   The sacrifice part is disturbing but how is it any different from the First Men.  What was the nature of the sacrifice?  If he was only giving away his babies, it’s not a sacrifice. Craster was giving his male offsprings to the white walkers. It wasn’t sacrifice. He was sending them to a new home.  
 

Marriages are used to bind two families together. His reign was a time of peace between man and the Others.  Isn’t it possible that his men saw the wisdom in this and went along?  He got caught between two kings.  The one in Winterfell feared his power.  He was even more dangerous if he was a Stark because of his claim. Joramun doesn’t want a king at the wall.  The wall was a buffer zone for him.  The wildlings have an interest in keeping the Others marginalized in numbers.  
 

There is an idea (which I personally support too), that the Night's King wad in fact the Last Hero. It's based on the fact that noone really understood the Others ever, nor could fight them, except for these 2 dudes. One of them was a member of 13 heroes, thr other one the 13th Lord Commander of the NW.

The main idea is that the humans opposed the NK's relationship with his Corpse Queen, who might or might not have been and Other. Still, we are told he was able to give her his seed. 

But his presence (after The Long Night, I suppose) didn't really benefit Joramun of the Stark of Winterfell, especially if he himself was a Stark too. Bran himself, doen at thr crypts says that some of his ancestors were great, others horrible. But he still is their blood, regardless of that. It might be that the NK was the good guy Stark, and the Stark at Winterfell wasn't. Them might both haf been good guys on different 'factions'. Either way, the NK 'ruled for 13 years, and did horrible things' we hear nothing about. He at least never attacked the King of Winter of Joramun.

It's not a popular theory, nor do I think this will be made clear for us ever, but I find interesting the parallel between Jon and the NK. Especially if Jon will be ressurected and some may see him as a villain as a half-dead men (while he wouldn't really be half-dead, while he wouldn't be), and in the end manages to give his seed to someone or something like that.

Edit: Regarding the Other's behaviour, we know so little about them that we can't be sure if the White Walker society (if there is such a thing) does or does not work uniformly. Maybe they have an offensive majority, but it might be that some of them aren't. Either way, that does not change the fact that their magical ability is waking up corpses, which is evidently bad for every living creature, if used. And that's mostly enough reason to think it's us or them. It doesn't have to be that way, I think.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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The sacrifice was something he had to do to placate the White Walkers.  Not sacrificing could mean war.  He chose to sacrifice a few newborns to save the lives of thousands.  An adult who has worked and served society deserves to live more than a baby who has given nothing.  NK chose to let the babies die.  It doesn't automatically make him the baddy.  He chose the lesser evil. 

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3 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

The sacrifice was something he had to do to placate the White Walkers.  Not sacrificing could mean war.  He chose to sacrifice a few newborns to save the lives of thousands.  An adult who has worked and served society deserves to live more than a baby who has given nothing.  NK chose to let the babies die.  It doesn't automatically make him the baddy.  He chose the lesser evil. 

That is NOT the lesser evil

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Love is the death of duty and honor.  He became a bad man when he gave in to the temptation. 

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We can't be sure as legend's usually become distorted in time . I personally feel Stannis storyline could be closest analogy of that legend- though not exact translation with all good and bad things he does.

 

Quote

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. 

Quote

"we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope."

Could it be it's actions cause the beginning of the Long Night-  sword glowing like sunset seems to ominously predict it.

 

Quote

He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. 'And that was the fault in him,' she would add, 'for all men must know fear.

Quote

Ned found it hard to imagine what could frighten Stannis
Baratheon, who had once held Storm’s End through a year of siege, surviving on rats and boot leather while the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne sat outside with their hosts, banqueting in sight of his walls.

Nightfort as his seat - check.

Quote

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Sacrificing people - check, could Mance/Tormund and Jon Snow or Northmen join in assault on Nightfort to release prisoners set to be sacrificed?

Taking an Other for his Queen - Melisandre and George himself instructing the painter:

 

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On 3/20/2021 at 9:48 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

There is an idea (which I personally support too), that the Night's King wad in fact the Last Hero. It's based on the fact that noone really understood the Others ever, nor could fight them, except for these 2 dudes. One of them was a member of 13 heroes, thr other one the 13th Lord Commander of the NW.

The main idea is that the humans opposed the NK's relationship with his Corpse Queen, who might or might not have been and Other. Still, we are told he was able to give her his seed. 

But his presence (after The Long Night, I suppose) didn't really benefit Joramun of the Stark of Winterfell, especially if he himself was a Stark too. Bran himself, doen at thr crypts says that some of his ancestors were great, others horrible. But he still is their blood, regardless of that. It might be that the NK was the good guy Stark, and the Stark at Winterfell wasn't. Them might both haf been good guys on different 'factions'. Either way, the NK 'ruled for 13 years, and did horrible things' we hear nothing about. He at least never attacked the King of Winter of Joramun.

It's not a popular theory, nor do I think this will be made clear for us ever, but I find interesting the parallel between Jon and the NK. Especially if Jon will be ressurected and some may see him as a villain as a half-dead men (while he wouldn't really be half-dead, while he wouldn't be), and in the end manages to give his seed to someone or something like that.

Edit: Regarding the Other's behaviour, we know so little about them that we can't be sure if the White Walker society (if there is such a thing) does or does not work uniformly. Maybe they have an offensive majority, but it might be that some of them aren't. Either way, that does not change the fact that their magical ability is waking up corpses, which is evidently bad for every living creature, if used. And that's mostly enough reason to think it's us or them. It doesn't have to be that way, I think.

The humans always have a choice. They could leave the land to the Orhers.

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On 3/21/2021 at 5:58 AM, Eltharion21 said:

Taking an Other for his Queen - Melisandre and George himself instructing the painter:

This link apparently only works for people who have a Reddit account. Can you please tell us the essence of what it says? Thanks!

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Posted (edited)

Maybe this link works it is just painted miniature from Dark Sword Miniatures painted by artist with instructions by George R.R. Martin in sort of icy scheme that in my opinion relates to "corpse queen" description.

Quote

 

Painted by Jen Haley

Miss Haley did a variant take on the color scheme for this piece per the direction of George – and my jaw hit the floor when I first saw it. Simply amazing stuff I say…

 

https://www.darkswordminiatures.com/shop/melisandre-priestess-of-rhllor/

Edited by Eltharion21

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