Jump to content

Do You see Tyrion Lannister as an overall good or bad character?


Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ned kills Jared because of some world threatening tradition that the former traitor thought was law. Loras kills his Rainbow brothers. Petyr kills Dontos. Etc.

Ned kills Jared because it's the law. It doesn't make it right by any means, but it's not his choice to kill him or not, with Tyrion is different.

Loras and LF (specially LF) are assholes.

 

Quote

Shae did betray Tyrion, she colluded the downfall and probable demise of her lover. Like her silvertounged poet before her, she was playing a Game that doesn't take survivors.

She did something that anyone in her place would have done, she was offered money for betraying a client or torture for not betraying him, she chose the first option, it doesn't justify murder. And it speaks volumes of Tyrion that he's capable of murdering someone he claims he loves.

 

Quote

Really though, its time for patricide and exile, Shae screaming, or raising her volume a little bit, would have caused Tywins guards to rush the door

He could've grab the crossbow and forced her to tie and gag herself, he could've sent her Varys' way, he could've not murdered Tywin. All preferable options that murdering your ex.

 

Quote

Bronn, the infamous scum henchman of the even more infamous monster hand shows up with "meat". Who the fucks gonna think pigeon?

I don't think he's infamous in Fleabottom and most people who buy the Singer Stew wouldn't know where the meat comes from.

 

Quote

Its not "just cause" its part of the Game. Now must we debate if any warlord from any feudal society can be a "good guy"? I dont wanna argue that. 

Why did he do it? What was his goal? I can be wrong but I get the impression he did it because he doesn't give a fuck and it's funny to him.

And of course none of this people who benefit from feudalism and oppression are good guys. That's why in my first post in this thread I stated that, as a leader he's beter than most, he cares more about people, until his trial that is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bronn, the infamous scum henchman of the even more infamous monster hand shows up with "meat". Who the fucks gonna think pigeon?

 

I could not have put this better. Good job, @Hugorfonics.

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
Add more
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

That's not the only thing that happened. You are ignoring all that she said during Tyrion's trial. 

'My GF cheated on me and then was coerced to testified against me because if she didn't she would be tortured so I murdered her.' That's still worrisome, still an evil act, and still not an excuse for murder, specially since he claims he loves her. It's one of the most disgusting things he's done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look, it's easy for us to be high minded, because we're not in the story. But you also have to get into Tyrion's brain. Shae testifies some really bad stuff, he knows it's fake, and then he finds her in his dad's bed. What do you think is going through his head? Killing Shae is not good and decent, but you have to look at his "reasons" even if they are abysmal. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Look, it's easy for us to be high minded, because we're not in the story. But you also have to get into Tyrion's brain. Shae testifies some really bad stuff, he knows it's fake, and then he finds her in his dad's bed. What do you think is going through his head? Killing Shae is not good and decent, but you have to look at his "reasons" even if they are abysmal. 

Well, we are in his head when he murders Shae. It's his pov. That's what makes his reasons for murdering Shea so disturbing. They show us a man so increasingly unmoored and desperate that murdering a woman he claims to love seems like a valid solution to his problems. He didn't even need to go into the Tower of the Hand at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

He didn't even need to go into the Tower of the Hand at all.

No, he didn't. 

4 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Well, we are in his head when he murders Shae. It's his pov

This isn't my greatest reason, but GRRM has said that narrators can be unreliable as in Sansa's made up kiss with the Hound.

4 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

They show us a man so increasingly unmoored and desperate that murdering a woman

He's effectively clinging to a wall while somebody kicks his fingers off. So yes, this is correct. I didn't say it was decent and good, I said we should at least try and think about it more from his POV rather than a high minded stance.

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

No, he didn't. 

This isn't my greatest reason, but GRRM has said that narrators can be unreliable as in Sansa's made up kiss with the Hound.

He's effectively clinging to a wall while somebody kicks his fingers off. So yes, this is correct. I didn't say it was decent and good, I said we should at least try and think about it more from his POV rather than a high minded stance.

I really don't see murder as an area where one can be too high minded. It is not right to murder someone, whatever your reasons. It isn't being high minded to judge someone negatively when they commit murder. Tyrion's reasons for murder are not what we should be focused on, it is his actions themselves that should be judged.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't think he's infamous in Fleabottom and most people who buy the Singer Stew wouldn't know where the meat comes from.

 

He serves the "twisted little monkey demon". He's been seen with Tyrion a bunch. I'm pretty sure others know him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Ned kills Jared because it's the law. It doesn't make it right by any means, but it's not his choice to kill him or not,

Ned kills Jared because he doesnt realize the law is what Ice says it is.

The Old Bear knew Jon deserted, he let him come back. Mance Rayder was spared by Melisandre and  lord Snow decided not to kill him.

There are certainly more options then Ned had with Jared, and all the deserters who came before him spitting the same tale

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

She did something that anyone in her place would have done, she was offered money for betraying a client or torture for not betraying him, she chose the first option, it doesn't justify murder.

Yo, bend over for Cersei. Say whatever the fuck Tywin wants, but the fact is Shae went beyond that. 

Quote

"Unspeakable things." As the tears rolled slowly down that pretty face, no doubt every man in the hall wanted to take Shae in his arms and comfort her. "With my mouth and . . . other parts, m'lord. All my parts. He used me every way there was, and . . . he used to make me tell him how big he was. My giant, I had to call him, my giant of Lannister."

Oswald Kettleblack was the first to laugh. Boros and Meryn joined in, then Cersei, Ser Loras, and more lords and ladies than he could count. The sudden gale of mirth made the rafters ring and shook the Iron Throne. "It's true," Shae protested. "My giant of Lannister." The laughter swelled twice as loud. Their mouths were twisted in merriment, their bellies shook. Some laughed so hard that snot flew from their nostrils.

Its one thing to destroy the man, but to destroy what they had, to make his personal shit public and prone to mockery is just od

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

He could've grab the crossbow and forced her to tie and gag herself,

She may have screamed, he choked her for a reason, plus times kinda an essence, his dad has a schedule 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

could've sent her Varys' way

Lol

Quote

"M'lord will be back soon. You should go, or . . . did you come to take me away?"

"Did you ever like it?" He cupped her cheek, remembering all the times he had done this before. All the times he'd slid his hands around her waist, squeezed her small firm breasts, stroked her short dark hair, touched her lips, her cheeks, her ears. All the times he had opened her with a finger to probe her secret sweetness and make her moan. "Did you ever like my touch?"

"More than anything," she said, "my giant of Lannister."

Yea, thats what Tyrions there for

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

, he could've not murdered Tywin

Then Tywin would have murdered him, or at least taken away the crossbow and send him up north to bunk with Janos

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't think he's infamous in Fleabottom and most people who buy the Singer Stew wouldn't know where the meat comes from.

Less then Chella? Bronn is a common sellsword, a thug who hires other thugs to really only act as straw men for the upcoming battle

The owner knows, the cook too. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Why did he do it? What was his goal?

Idk, im not the imp. Im not even GRRM. 

But from the red priests vision hes making the dragons dance to his steps, much to his satisfaction. 

Its probably Castelry rock related, in the long run.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I can be wrong but I get the impression he did it because he doesn't give a fuck and it's funny to him.

Nah. I mean it is funny, but like everything funny its all about delivery. Merreen! Lol

People are uh people, theyre not wights who do things for no reason. Tyrion is playing Cyvesse, and is thinking a few moves ahead.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

And of course none of this people who benefit from feudalism and oppression are good guys.

Yea, probably. 

I do have faith in Stark. The lords and smallfolk who bend their knee to their frozen overlords, I see it working out for them. But thats kinda because its a story about cute children (and a dwarf and a dragon)

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:
 

I could not have put this better. Good job, @Hugorfonics.

ty

53 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

He didn't even need to go into the Tower of the Hand at all.

He had business upstairs.

Tyrion last saw his wife like a decade ago, with his families help he convinced himself she was scamming him, but he, uh, had business upstairs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You is very welcome.

 

Tywin and Jaime lied about Tysha who he's bascially obsessed with in ADWD. Tywin nearly got him killed at the Green Fork. Tywin denied him his rightful lordship as heir to Casterly Rock. Say what you want about Shae, Tywin has repeatedly insulted and tried indirectly to kill him at the GF and by sending him to the viper's nest called King's Landing.

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
Add more
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tyrion has had a difficult life, literally right from the moment of his birth, when people blamed him for the death of his mother.  He's been scapegoat'ed and mistreated at every turn, by his own family as well as countless others both highborn and low.  Considering all that, it's impressive that he grew into someone who was still capable of doing good deeds and using his power (when he had any) wisely.  He even went into combat, putting his own life on the line against larger, stronger foes, in order to protect his corrupt, abusive relatives, not once but twice: at the Green Fork and again at the Blackwater.

It's true that he didn't have to make that detour to kill his father during his escape.  But considering how Tywin had treated him, it's understandable. Medieval cultures didn't value human life as highly as modern ones, and revenge killings were sometimes seen as justified or noble.  Shae was collateral damage; other posters have covered this quite well, so I won't repeat those arguments. 

Some readers seem to think  that it was evil for Tyrion to advise young Aegon to head West right away, instead of trying to join his forces with Daenerys'.  I don't see it that way; am I missing something?  So far, the plan seems to be going well.  Aegon's only alternatives were to stay in Volantis, where the locals didn't like having an army camped on their doorstep, or to head East and try and meet Daenerys in Slaver's Bay, which clearly would have been very risky.

The title of this thread includes the word "overall."  It seems to me that Tyrion has done more good than bad.

Edited by Aebram
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Look, it's easy for us to be high minded, because we're not in the story. But you also have to get into Tyrion's brain. Shae testifies some really bad stuff, he knows it's fake, and then he finds her in his dad's bed. What do you think is going through his head? Killing Shae is not good and decent, but you have to look at his "reasons" even if they are abysmal. 

His reasons were shit. And if I have to look at them, then he should've looked at Shae's reasons too, she was way more justified in 'betraying' him than he could've ever been in murdering her. I don't have to be in the story to know that killing your ex just because she did something that most people would have done in her situation is villain behavior.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Compared to other murders we seen or heard about cough Ramsay cough cough, this one is practically humane. It doesn't make it less bad though, ye is correct about that.

The fuck dude? really?

This kind of thing happens every day in our world. Everyday dipshit murder women because they feel heartbroken by them, because they betrayed them, because they cheated on them. That is humane in absolutely no way, and the only difference between what he did to Shae and what Ramsay does is that he didn't torture her first. But also, he claims to love her, which makes to whole thing much worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He serves the "twisted little monkey demon". He's been seen with Tyrion a bunch. I'm pretty sure others know him.

Would everyone in a three million people city be able to recognize the governor's assistant? No. The bast majority of people wouldn't, and it gets worse once you take TV and the internet out of the equation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ned kills Jared because he doesnt realize the law is what Ice says it is.

The Old Bear knew Jon deserted, he let him come back. Mance Rayder was spared by Melisandre and  lord Snow decided not to kill him.

There are certainly more options then Ned had with Jared, and all the deserters who came before him spitting the same tale

I don't disagree, but it's still not the same as killing your ex. The first thing is viewed badly in our world, the second one in both.

 

Quote

Yo, bend over for Cersei. Say whatever the fuck Tywin wants, but the fact is Shae went beyond that. 

Its one thing to destroy the man, but to destroy what they had, to make his personal shit public and prone to mockery is just od

So the motive for killing her wasn't the cheating or the fact that she testified against him, it was that she mocked him in public? That's not a good justification. And also they had nothing, he was her client and she was a whore. She owes nothing to him.

 

Quote

She may have screamed, he choked her for a reason, plus times kinda an essence, his dad has a schedule 

She didn't, and he didn't even consider it. He just killed her, her being a threat never crossed his mind.

 

Quote

Then Tywin would have murdered him, or at least taken away the crossbow and send him up north to bunk with Janos

I meant not even going to the Tower. Or maybe running away.

 

Quote

The owner knows, the cook too. 

Maybe, maybe not. The people eating do not.

 

Quote

Idk, im not the imp. Im not even GRRM. 

But from the red priests vision hes making the dragons dance to his steps, much to his satisfaction. 

Its probably Castelry rock related, in the long run.

Yeah, maybe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

She didn't, and he didn't even consider it. He just killed her, her being a threat never crossed his mind.

We dont get everthing going on in his head, the chain in acok for example is hidden from the reader. He cant leave her there, there are two guards right outside that door. He can either take her with him, or not. 

Witnesses get capped. Its sad but happens. Thats why Tyrions crying unlike another murder where Nurse is scoffing down mushrooms hearing "a Lannister pays his debts" 

It really easy to make the argument that Tyrion plotted, equipped a weapon and murdered Tywin. Even if it was super quick and was really just a heated conversation gone wrong, the crossbow equipped only so Tywin doesnt call for help from the two guards behind that door. Shae however was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, her past relations with her killer being a coincidence

3 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

So the motive for killing her wasn't the cheating or the fact that she testified against him, it was that she mocked him in public? That's not a good justification. 

Course not. Just that she went above and beyond any of the other witnesses, including Taena. 

She struck him where Tywin taught his kids is the most vulnerable. Thats why Cersei was bugging out after the walk

3 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

also they had nothing, he was her client and she was a whore. She owes nothing to him.

Im pretty sure they were dating and she was a handmaiden with a resume. He just had to call her his whore and hide her because shes smallfolk and its not Dorne or the Iron Islands.

Like what, every night he left 3 stags, and the dwarfs penny, on the night stand? 

She owed him not to make up wild ass stories like how Tyrion plotted to murk Joff and make himself king, I mean come on lol

3 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

meant not even going to the Tower. Or maybe running away

He had business upstairs.

What kinda husband would not ask Tywin follow up questions? Might as well go back to his cell and give his worthless life to Cersei

3 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Maybe, maybe not.

Course. Bronns famous. His boss is famous. His co workers are famous, theyre the talk of the town and spend most times in fleabottom. They all know the lead security for the Hand is not a pigeon salesman.

 

Edited by Hugorfonics
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

We dont get everthing going on in his head, the chain in acok for example is hidden from the reader. He cant leave her there, there are two guards right outside that door. He can either take her with him, or not. 

It's telling that the thoughts we get in the moment and after are all about how she betrayed him.

 

Quote

Shae however was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, her past relations with her killer being a coincidence

I disagree, I think it was vengeance.

 

Quote

Course not. Just that she went above and beyond any of the other witnesses, including Taena. 

That still doesn't excuse murder.

 

Quote

Im pretty sure they were dating and she was a handmaiden with a resume. He just had to call her his whore and hide her because shes smallfolk and its not Dorne or the Iron Islands.

Like what, every night he left 3 stags, and the dwarfs penny, on the night stand? 

Not all whores work in brothels, he was paying her in dresses, food, singers, a place to live and jewelry. She was a whore, he was her client. There might have been some fondness, there probably was, but it wasn't the relationship Tyrion thought it was.

 

Quote

She owed him not to make up wild ass stories like how Tyrion plotted to murk Joff and make himself king, I mean come on lol

Unless Cersei made her say this, in which case everyone in her position would've done the same.

 

Quote

Course. Bronns famous. His boss is famous. His co workers are famous, theyre the talk of the town and spend most times in fleabottom. They all know the lead security for the Hand is not a pigeon salesman.

I will copy and paste what I wrote above:

Would everyone in a three million people city be able to recognize the governor's assistant? No. The bast majority of people wouldn't, and it gets worse once you take TV and the internet out of the equation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is surreal in places.  The author has described Tyrion as "the villain" and has said his worst deeds are the murder of Shae and his rape of Tysha.  Bronn kidnapped Shae, and Tyrion swindled her.  She was his whore, promised jewels to act like his girlfriend, only she lost the jewels.

He's a good character, just as Richard III and Iago are good characters, but he's a bad man.

This may be a quasi-medieval world, but a lot of his actions are bad by in-universe standards, as well as by the standards of the modern world.

Edited by SeanF
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...