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Walter White

Do You see Tyrion Lannister as an overall good or bad character?

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3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I know he's done some good, I don't think it outshines the bad tho, murder and rape aren't that easily excused, IMHO, so let's agree to disagree.

 Neither is mass crucifixions, but ok

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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Neither is mass crucifixions, but ok

Dany at least has the decency to second guess herself about whether that was the right thing to do. She feels some level of guilt for how she punished the slaver families even if she was fully justified in doing so. There's absolutely no sign that Tyrion feels any remorse for killing Shae.

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3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Neither is mass crucifixions, but ok

I don't excuse mass crucifixions, in fact a few posts back I was explaining why they are bad. The difference to me is that Dany had to punish the slavers, not punishing them would;ve also been evil. But Tyrion didn't have to do anything, he did it because he wanted. He wanted to kill Shae, Tywin, the bard, and the others, he wanted to rape those women. 

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10 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Dany at least has the decency to second guess herself about whether that was the right thing to do. She feels some level of guilt for how she punished the slaver families even if she was fully justified in doing so. There's absolutely no sign that Tyrion feels any remorse for killing Shae.

Um, hes crying when he killed her.

Theres definitely a deep sense of shame that surrounds Tyrion in adwd

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His wrist was throbbing where he'd torn the skin, and his fetters made it impossible for him to sit, let alone stretch out. The best he could do was twist sideways to lean against the wall, and before long he began to lose all feeling in his hands. When he moved to relieve the strain, sensation came flooding back as pain. He had to grind his teeth to keep from screaming. He wondered how much his father had hurt when the quarrel punched through his groin, what Shae had felt as he twisted the chain around her lying throat, what Tysha had been feeling as they raped her. His sufferings were nothing compared to their own, but that did not make him hurt any less. Just make it stop.

 

9 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Dany had to punish the slavers, not punishing them would;ve also been evil.

I sincerely disagree. Dany had to eradicate slavery by any measures, course. But the 163 were not slavers but subjects of Daenerys the conquerors kingdom. The war was over, the Ghiscari on their bellies submitting to their dragon overlord, and she made them choose 163 of their brothers (and sisters?) to murder. Imo this is second only to the RW in terms of brutality, injustice and the sheer death toll.

It also wasnt wise, at a time where Dany treaded lightly with peace with Yunaki and planed to rule Meereen, the 163 crucifixions opened up war and the sons of the harpy. As the old saying goes, it was worse then a crime, it was a mistake

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7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Um, hes crying when he killed her.

Men who murder their exes often do.

 

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I sincerely disagree. Dany had to eradicate slavery by any measures, course. But the 163 were not slavers but subjects of Daenerys the conquerors kingdom. The war was over, the Ghiscari on their bellies submitting to their dragon overlord, and she made them choose 163 of their brothers (and sisters?) to murder. Imo this is second only to the RW in terms of brutality, injustice and the sheer death toll.

It also wasnt wise, at a time where Dany treaded lightly with peace with Yunaki and planed to rule Meereen, the 163 crucifixions opened up war and the sons of the harpy. As the old saying goes, it was worse then a crime, it was a mistake

They were slavers tho, and slavers who crucified children. These are people who spent generations raping murdering and torturing for profit. In our world killing them would be wrong, but anything else short of life sentense would also be wrong. Dany is justified in killing them, but she shouldn't've crucified them and she should've killed all of them (or, better yet, imprison them for life and take all their wealth).

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15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

We're going in circles here so ima try to switch directions. Tyrion at the start of adwd is convinced that he is a monster and his go to response is fuck the world. However when Illyrio pressed Tyrion on crowing Myrcella he immediately felt shame on throwing his neice into the game. When Penny is lost in obscurity failing to assassinate Tyrion he looks after her and her stupid pets instead of sailing away while she dies homeless. Aegons about to die and Tyrion sacrifices his life so the boy may live, Jorah his enemy is even saved by Tyrion. 

 

Exactly.He looks after Penny instead of leaving her on the dock. He even saves Jorah, who knocked a tooth out of his head. 

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4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Tyrion could end up at the wall. His crimes will be forgiven.  It doesn't change what he did except in the eyes of the law.  He is morally dark.  I don't agree with killing Shae and Tywin. Tywin was a cruel man who had it coming, but not from a son who was living like a drunk playboy on his father's money.  Poor Shae got caught in the Lannisters family drama.  She didn't deserve to die like that. 

To be honest i hate Tywin so much that i would probably cheer if Joffrey killed him.

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13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

They were slavers tho, and slavers who crucified children

Were

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

These are people who spent generations raping murdering and torturing for profit

We're gonna judge them by their generations? I agree we can understand them better but being born a Clegane is not a crime

15 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

In our world killing them would be wrong, but anything else short of life sentense would also be wrong.

Itd be wildly wrong today to just arrest the entire aristocracy (for life!) after they submit their entire government over 

18 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Dany is justified in killing them, but she shouldn't've crucified them and she should've killed all of them (or, better yet, imprison them for life and take all their wealth).

The entire debacle is repugnant and unjustifiable

Quote

In the plaza before the Great Pyramid, the Meereenese huddled forlorn. The Great Masters had looked anything but great in the morning light. Stripped of their jewels and their fringed tokars, they were contemptible; a herd of old men with shriveled balls and spotted skin and young men with ridiculous hair. Their women were either soft and fleshy or as dry as old sticks, their face paint streaked by tears. "I want your leaders," Dany told them. "Give them up, and the rest of you shall be spared."

"How many?" one old woman had asked, sobbing. "How many must you have to spare us?"

"One hundred and sixty-three," she answered.

Theres nothing resembling justice at all, especially the fact that the Great Masters chose which ones to crucify, not an investigation to who actually strung up the babies.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Exactly.He looks after Penny instead of leaving her on the dock. He even saves Jorah, who knocked a tooth out of his head. 

Yea I dont think most characters would do that

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47 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

so let's agree to disagree.

Sure.

 

46 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't disagree, he would be a good council member to have, but I don't see how that redeems his past crimes.

The point of the thread is not what will redeem his crimes, the point of the thread is do you consider Tyrion to be a good guy or a bad guy. And  personally, if he runs the kingdom well, I think that will help redeem his crime.

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Were

Yes, and they deserve to be punished for it.

 

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We're gonna judge them by their generations? I agree we can understand them better but being born a Clegane is not a crime

No, being born a Clegane is not a crime, but slavery, rape, mass murder and exploitation, tho no crimes in Slaver's Bay are disgusting enough, violent enough, that I think the people who partake in them should be punished at the very moment we get the chance to do so. Dany wasted a golden opportunity to rid herself of her most dangerous opposition while offering reparations to the slaves and providing justice at the same time.

 

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Itd be wildly wrong today to just arrest the entire aristocracy (for life!) after they submit their entire government over 

I completely disagree. Since I already brought this up in the other post, I'll bring it up here, the dictators that ruled Argentina for seven years and killed, raped, murdered thirty thousand people while at the same time robbing babies submitted the government willingly, they died in jail, as they should. And those who didn't, should've. Slavery is not something that can be forgiven.

And their wealth was produced by the slaves, who deserve reparations for all their work and suffering.

 

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The entire debacle is repugnant and unjustifiable

Theres nothing resembling justice at all, especially the fact that the Great Masters chose which ones to crucify, not an investigation to who actually strung up the babies.

I agree.

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5 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Sure.

Wasn't taking to you, I'm still waiting for you to justify your views.

 

Quote

The point of the thread is not what will redeem his crimes, the point of the thread is do you consider Tyrion to be a good guy or a bad guy. And  personally, if he runs the kingdom well, I think that will help redeem his crime.

I was replying to a particular poster who said that Tyrion would be redeemed if he joined Dany's side, not talking about the OP.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Were

We're gonna judge them by their generations? I agree we can understand them better but being born a Clegane is not a crime

Itd be wildly wrong today to just arrest the entire aristocracy (for life!) after they submit their entire government over 

The entire debacle is repugnant and unjustifiable

Theres nothing resembling justice at all, especially the fact that the Great Masters chose which ones to crucify, not an investigation to who actually strung up the babies.

 

 

Yea I dont think most characters would do that

I would recommend reading up about what actually happened to slave masters in real life servile wars.

Let's just say, Dany was a pussycat compared to people like Dessalines, Spartacus, Bolivar, and Toussaint L'Ouverture. We can cry and wail about how Dany violated the Human Rights Act 1998, but that's not the standard by which this world operates.

Most readers, I'm sure, detest what Ramsay Bolton does.  How much more should one detest people who institutionalise Ramsay's behaviour.

Edited by SeanF

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I would recommend reading up about what actually happened to slave masters in real life servile wars.

Let's just say, Dany was a pussycat compared to people like Dessalines, Spartacus, and Toussaint L'Ouverture. We can cry and wail about Dany violated the Human Rights Act 1998, but that's not the standard by which this world operates.

So exactly why are you guys judging by our world's standards? I agree Tyrion has done some pretty bad stuff. When you check by ASIOAF standards, people don't care one whit about Shae (Granted they probably don't know about her), but if they did they wouldn't give one iota that some dead lady was in Tywin's bed. They're concerned about Tywin.

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1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

So exactly why are you guys judging by our world's standards? I agree Tyrion has done some pretty bad stuff. When you check by ASIOAF standards, people don't care one whit about Shae (Granted they probably don't know about her), but if they did they wouldn't give one iota that some dead lady was in Tywin's bed. They're concerned about Tywin.

That's why I said upthread that if Tyrion is judged by in-universe standards, he will also be found wanting.  

I cited four people who are generally regarded as heroes today, who dealt very brutally with enemies who committed appalling deeds. It would be a very revisionist view of history to argue that actually, they were the ones in the wrong, and their enemies were the victims of injustice.

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Posted (edited)

The people in universe won't care that Tyrion cooked a singer, they'll only use it for their own ends. They wouldn't care about Shae, they'd use it for their own ends. The nobles care about the peasants only when they need to.

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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14 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The nobles care about the peasants only when they need to.

That's a big problem too

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26 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

So exactly why are you guys judging by our world's standards? I agree Tyrion has done some pretty bad stuff. When you check by ASIOAF standards, people don't care one whit about Shae (Granted they probably don't know about her), but if they did they wouldn't give one iota that some dead lady was in Tywin's bed. They're concerned about Tywin.

Fiction at it's best reflects real world issues and presents a sort of funhouse mirror of our real world values and interests. We should absolutely compare how people like Danaerys and Tyrion and Cersei would be recieved in our own world. You say people in ASOIAF don't care a whit about people like Shae, and that's true. Guess what? Sex workers are frequently treated exactly like Shae in our world too. Ever seen the headline "Prostitute found Murdered?" It's not some kind of abstract issue that only affects fictional characters.

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Posted (edited)

I think Tyrion is trying to do what very other character does. Live. Just for being who he is he is met with opposition. Nothing he did, he did without reason or out of plain cruelty. like most people he acts out of self interest, and because those interests are not met, he does not have the time to deal with how all his actions affect others. just as well some actions that may be good for Lannister are bad for Stark or Baratheon. Tyrion is good to Tyrion but he makes mistakes meets oppositions and like most people, has regrets. Good or Bad is too Black and White, And Tyrion will never be No-one.

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding
spelling

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9 hours ago, Ephraim'sFruit said:

Didnt he sexually terrorize one of Illyrios bed servants? 

Tyrion at his worst moment imo:

[The whore was looking at his noseless face with revulsion in her eyes. "Do I offend you, sweetling? I am an offensive creature, as my father would be glad to tell you if he were not dead and rotting." ]

[The wine was strong and sour and required no translation. "I suppose I shall settle for your cunt." He wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. "Have you ever bedded a monster before? Now's as good a time as any. Out of your clothes and onto your back, if it please you. Or not." She looked at him uncomprehending, until he took the flagon from her hands and lifted her skirts up over her head. After that she understood what was required of her, though she did not prove the livliest of partners. . Tyrion had been so long without a woman that he spent himself inside her on the third thrust.]

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