US Politics: Guns versus Butter

[Larry of the Lawn]

Sort of a corollary to the topic of Stuff We Shouldn't Talk About, it's probably fine for Kamala Harris to give a talk on how the pandemic has affected women.  It's probabaly not a good idea to have Bill Clinton do this talk with her.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, OnionAhaiReborn said:

 

Biden says "we have to act" on gun control and calls on Senate to close background check loophole

Look out everybody because Biden's musing about gun control. Doubtless the entire progressive project has been set back decades by this major error. 

Lol, I'll bite. Background checks are extremely popular, and there is polling data that indicates a small majority of Republicans and NRA members support it. There is, however, almost no support for it from elected Republicans, and you'd need their help to pass such legislation. They have not suffered in any significant way from this and Democrats haven't really benefited from it. Is it obviously the right moral thing to do? Yes. Is it good politics? Well 20 dead kids and no national reform is your answer. We've had two large mass shootings in the last few days and a month from now most people will have forgotten about them outside of the AAPI community. 

49 minutes ago, Rhom said:

So dipping my toes in here delicately since I was told that having a beer with me would be the equivalent of the slippery slope leading to a Neo-Nazi bar.

When explaining the personal economic reasons that I voted for Trump, I was told that I was evil because the US has kids in cages.

So hey, we ever get those kids out of the cages?  Or is that a Day 95 of the first 100 priority?

I mean, I was one of the people who absolutely said you were rubbing elbows with Nazis because it helped your bottom line. I can make that statement, more so than I can call your son a traitor, which he is, and you know it. Doesn't mean I can't talk about @Mlle. Zabzie's beloved sportball with you, but you did vote for a truly terrible person and I think the driving factor for your vote was largely misinformed as there were a lot of reports from economists and business folks that Biden's agenda would actually be better for business overall even though some at the top would end up with less. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

12 hours ago, ThinkerX said:

screw the 'tipped minimum wage.'  Full minimum wage plus tips, because unless you land the right shifts, a lot of the time the tips are not enough to cover the difference.  'tipped minimum wage' is nothing but screwing working people over.  

 

It's bullshit and offensive I'd love to see this practice made illegal.

Paying the damn wages is first and foremost the employers responsibility, if the customer chooses to tip beyond this it's great. But not an excuse for the employer to not bother doing their part of the contribution up front.

If the employer cannot afford the employee then they shouldn't have one.

No one guarantees a job and No one guarantees you an employee. But the rules should apply the same for all employers.

 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

23 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Lol, I'll bite. Background checks are extremely popular, and there is polling data that indicates a small majority of Republicans and NRA members support it. There is, however, almost no support for it from elected Republicans, and you'd need their help to pass such legislation. They have not suffered in any significant way from this and Democrats haven't really benefited from it. Is it obviously the right moral thing to do? Yes. Is it good politics? Well 20 dead kids and no national reform is your answer. We've had two large mass shootings in the last few days and a month from now most people will have forgotten about them outside of the AAPI community. 

I mean, I was one of the people who absolutely said you were rubbing elbows with Nazis because it helped your bottom line. I can make that statement, more so than I can call your son a traitor, which he is, and you know it. Doesn't mean I can't talk about @Mlle. Zabzie's beloved sportball with you, but you did vote for a truly terrible person and I think the driving factor for your vote was largely misinformed as there were a lot of reports from economists and business folks that Biden's agenda would actually be better for business overall even though some at the top would end up with less. 

Wait what? You gratuitously dragging on Duke?  I mean, yeah, Nixon and Miller, but I refuse to find Laettner evil rather than heroic (and Reddick’s poetry was bad, but you know, that’s why you keep your diary private kiddo).

If you are calling my love of tax policy sportsball, well, then, let’s please talk about the Ohio suit about the requirement in the new bill that states not lower taxes and fill the gap with federal money (fantastic policy, hopefully the court doesn’t decide to be the court on it).  I would also happily engage on the wealth tax (terrible idea), estate tax (amazing idea), and elimination of the capital gains preference (tomorrow, preferably, please).  If you want to chat about SPACs, I won’t, except to note that they jumped the shark with the Shaq SPAC.

[DanteGabriel]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

So dipping my toes in here delicately since I was told that having a beer with me would be the equivalent of the slippery slope leading to a Neo-Nazi bar.

When explaining the personal economic reasons that I voted for Trump, I was told that I was evil because the US has kids in cages.

So hey, we ever get those kids out of the cages?  Or is that a Day 95 of the first 100 priority?

I said I thought most of the good things you said he had done were largely bullshit and certainly not worth the price we were paying in political stability, cultural retrogression, and actual harm being done by a pandemic he ignored and trusted the Chinese government on. Having a dumb, cruel, racist, narcissistic grifter President would be slightly more tolerable if he weren't constantly getting cucked by authoritarian dictators like Putin and Xi.

That you would try to start a "discussion" this way makes me regret the time and energy I spent trying to engage with you in good faith.

Any regrets about Trump support after January 6?

[Zorral]

This is kind of funny, voting for previous monster due to financial gains.  Funny because I actually know (not friends with, but know) 4 people who loved everything about previous monster -- except what he'd done economically, that with the way he handled the pandemic he was 100% responsible for the crash we're still living in.  They voted in Illinois by mail for Biden.

They are definitely bigots, and still are, of course.

[Kalbear]

Way to avoid the question, @Rhom!

Quote

Any regrets about Trump support after January 6?

 

[Rhom]

1 minute ago, Karlbear said:

Way to avoid the question, @Rhom!

 

I won't avoid it.  I'm embarrassed by it and I don't understand it.  There are few things I agree with Mitch McConnell on, but his stance that the peaceful transition of power was the most important thing I whole heartedly agree.

I'm also upset about the chaos because it now makes it impossible to have a real conversation about election processes and security.  Democrats spent the last four years lamenting Russian interference.  Republicans were concerned about voting procedures in this election.  That's actually a really good starting point to have a real discussion on how elections should be run in the future.  

But now, if I were a member of congress and said I wanted to have an open discussion on the topic; I would be automatically lumped in as an insurrectionist.   That makes me sad because I think there are real concerns on both sides.

I will say though... I fully expect the hottest Halloween costume this fall to be the shaman with buffalo horns look. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

28 minutes ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

Setting aside the whole “kids in cages” emotional thing, and the whole concept of the fact that Trump incited an insurrection (which you could not have known about in November), I cannot respect an “economic” vote for Trump because such is shortsighted, IMO. The economy would go nowhere without more vaccines into arms, and IMO, Trump was more focused on himself and trying to maintain a hold on power vs vaccines into arms.

Do I think you are evil? No. Do I think you might want to have a longer time frame on your view of “the economy”? Yes.

Please keep in mind that any Biden tax increases or back door increases such as removal of step up in value at death within the estate tax would probably be temporary, because American don’t like taxes, and control of the Senate is at a razor thin margin.

In talking about tax “reform” proposals, and what is likely to happen, I would quote the late, great, Sen. Russell B. Long’s maxim that tax reform’s guiding principle is “don’t tax me, don’t tax thee, go tax that fellow behind the tree.”  This is a very true piece of doggerel wisdom. This is why it is MOST likely that corporate tax rates will increase.  I would guess that rates will go to between 26-28%.  I think it is POSSIBLE that individual rates will increase, but I am actually not so sure that the votes exist in the Senate for this.  More likely is that some of the hidden increases (e.g., the elimination of the SALT deduction) will be made permanent rather than expiring at the end of 2026.  But we will see.  The estate tax is an interesting one.  It’s emotional on the one hand, but it’s sort of easier to tax a dead person than a living person.  It’s the correct policy btw, to have a huge tax bit out inheritances (unearned income the way I think of it), but since it is all wrapped up with loss, grief and greed, it’s hard.

[Fragile Bird]

1 minute ago, Rhom said:

I won't avoid it.  I'm embarrassed by it and I don't understand it.  There are few things I agree with Mitch McConnell on, but his stance that the peaceful transition of power was the most important thing I whole heartedly agree.

I'm also upset about the chaos because it now makes it impossible to have a real conversation about election processes and security.  Democrats spent the last four years lamenting Russian interference.  Republicans were concerned about voting procedures in this election.  That's actually a really good starting point to have a real discussion on how elections should be run in the future.  

Wow. I ‘m sorry, but Republicans are worried about “voting procedures” because too many people who aren’t white voted. 
 

That’s a pretty difficult place to call a starting point for discussion.

[Larry of the Lawn]

15 minutes ago, Rhom said:

As I said back then, there were multiple responses to me that only said "America has kids in cages."  I asked then what we would do differently.  The response was basically still "America has kids in cages."  Its a bad look.  But I'm not sure what you're supposed to do when thousands of unaccompanied minors show up on your back porch.  And I will admit that I am very surprised by the article I read today that said the media has had less access to the facilities under Biden than under Trump.  That legitimately did surprise me.

.

Adjust to the problem? The Trump administration's response was to start separating families, and then drag their feet to reunite them after multiple court orders to do some.  And then when more minors start showing up unaccompanied, instead of fixing anything they just kept packing them tighter and tighter into the CBP facilities where they sat for months.  They didn't demonstrate any effort to get these kids into any kind of living situation you'd provide for a human being.

I get the point that no matter who you vote for, for US President, it's going to be someone who is going to do terrible things.  I expect Biden to be just as likely as any other post WW2 President to engage in shitty aggressive military actions around the world and bomb civilians.  I expect that we'll continue to incarcerate our citizen population at the highest rate in the world.

But Trump went out of his way to be absolutely cruel and inhumane on immigration.  Who the fuck tears families apart just to own the libs and rile up his shittiest supporters?  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I'm also upset about the chaos because it now makes it impossible to have a real conversation about election processes and security.  Democrats spent the last four years lamenting Russian interference.  Republicans were concerned about voting procedures in this election.  That's actually a really good starting point to have a real discussion on how elections should be run in the future.  

But now, if I were a member of congress and said I wanted to have an open discussion on the topic; I would be automatically lumped in as an insurrectionist.   That makes me sad because I think there are real concerns on both sides.

And that's the problem bud. One side points a real problem you can actually find evidence for, the other side completely makes something up, and now they are treated as equal stances. I linked an article here not too long ago quoting a Republican politician saying he didn't believe any of the claims of the election being rigged, but because his voters did, he had to support the strongest measures he could. That's exactly why we can't have nice things.

[DanteGabriel]

You want nuance?

Yes, as conservatives like to meme-ify, there were kids in cages under Obama. By my understanding, they were unaccompanied minors being housed in the nearest secure facilities. I don't recall particular effort was made to make them suffer, but maybe that's unavoidable when putting kids in the custody of a rotten organization like the Border Patrol.

It was Trump who initiated the policy of separating families as a cruel deterrent to immigration. That was not Obama policy. And the intentional cruelty and carelessness with which the separations were handled makes us a monster country.

 

[Rhom]

5 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Wow. I ‘m sorry, but Republicans are worried about “voting procedures” because too many people who aren’t white voted. 
 

That’s a pretty difficult place to call a starting point for discussion.

That's not how I saw it in my area.  My county clerk is a lifelong Democrat.  She is far from being what anyone would consider racist.  She closed polling places around the county, ostensibly for COVID... but we did have in person voting and the locations she did have were nowhere near the north end of the county where we have a strong military/African American demographic.  My white male middle aged Republican friend is announcing his plan to run against her next week (election is in 2022) and his biggest campaign point is increasing access.  Don't paint everyone with the same brush.

My concern is this, do I think that voting machines were hacked to change the results of the election?  No.  My tin foil hat is nowhere near that thick.  However, in the internet of things, we have seen that everything from my TV, to my car, to my toaster oven can be hacked.  Therefore, I would like to see us have a discussion on whether or not voting machines should be connected to the internet at all.  I'd like to remove even the appearance of the possibility of a rogue actor changing votes.  Honestly, I don't understand why anyone would even conceive of a voting machine that is connected to the internet.  

Most of the older, white Republican voters that I talked to around here loved the early access voting.  They would like to see that expanded.  

What I personally don't like and never will be comfortable with for myself is a ballot where I have to sign my name five times and then have it opened by someone to count.  It takes away the sanctity of the voting booth.  Unless I tell you who I vote for, no one should ever have that information.  So, no I personally am not comfortable with an absentee ballot when I am otherwise able to vote in person.  I think that should always be the "default" setting with other options available as needed.  Outlining those parts of the procedures while also discussing security from outside interference is a conversation we could have had minus a few crazies.

[aceluby]

11 hours ago, Darzin said:

If you make less than the minimum with tips, though, your entitled to wages to equal to the minimum so it come out the same. 

Unfortunately it doesn't really work that way: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/minimum-wage-tip-map-waiters-waitresses-servers/

Quote

 She notes that tipped workers are hit especially hard by “wage theft,” whereby restaurants don’t make up the difference when the tips aren’t rolling in. Between 2010 and 2012, the Wage and Hour Division of the Department of Labor conducted nearly 9,000 investigations in the restaurant industry, and discovered that 83.8 percent had some kind of wage and hour violation.

 

[Fury Resurrected]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

That's not how I saw it in my area.  My county clerk is a lifelong Democrat.  She is far from being what anyone would consider racist.  She closed polling places around the county, ostensibly for COVID... but we did have in person voting and the locations she did have were nowhere near the north end of the county where we have a strong military/African American demographic.  My white male middle aged Republican friend is announcing his plan to run against her next week (election is in 2022) and his biggest campaign point is increasing access.  Don't paint everyone with the same brush.

My concern is this, do I think that voting machines were hacked to change the results of the election?  No.  My tin foil hat is nowhere near that thick.  However, in the internet of things, we have seen that everything from my TV, to my car, to my toaster oven can be hacked.  Therefore, I would like to see us have a discussion on whether or not voting machines should be connected to the internet at all.  I'd like to remove even the appearance of the possibility of a rogue actor changing votes.  Honestly, I don't understand why anyone would even conceive of a voting machine that is connected to the internet.  

Most of the older, white Republican voters that I talked to around here loved the early access voting.  They would like to see that expanded.  

What I personally don't like and never will be comfortable with for myself is a ballot where I have to sign my name five times and then have it opened by someone to count.  It takes away the sanctity of the voting booth.  Unless I tell you who I vote for, no one should ever have that information.  So, no I personally am not comfortable with an absentee ballot when I am otherwise able to vote in person.  I think that should always be the "default" setting with other options available as needed.  Outlining those parts of the procedures while also discussing security from outside interference is a conversation we could have had minus a few crazies.

This is not how voting actually works. Voting machines have paper backups, which is why you fill out a paper ballot and stick it in. So if there is evidence of tampering, there’s an easy fix with the hard copies. As for the signed ballots- that’s why you sign the envelopes, not the ballot itself. They are de-sleeved separately from the counting. Nobody seeing your name is the person seeing your vote

[Rhom]

6 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

This is not how voting actually works. Voting machines have paper backups, which is why you fill out a paper ballot and stick it in. So if there is evidence of tampering, there’s an easy fix with the hard copies. As for the signed ballots- that’s why you sign the envelopes, not the ballot itself. They are de-sleeved separately from the counting. Nobody seeing your name is the person seeing your vote

When I go to vote, there are two types machines available to me.  One involves taking essentially a scantron behind a divider booth and then feeding it into a machine out in the open.  I'm sure that sort of machine is what you are referring to.  The other option, I have only used one time.  There is a wheel and a screen.  You spin the wheel until the cursor is over the name of your choice and then you hit a button to lock in that selection.  I have never seen a paper record of that process.

We have 50 states and about a 1000 different voting procedures is what I've seen.     

[Rhom]

Just now, Chataya de Fleury said:

Exactly this. Also - voting machines are NOT connected to the internet.

NBC News:  Nearly Three Dozen US Voting systems found connected to the Internet

Again.  I'm not enough of a nut job to think the Venezuelans were changing votes in Minnesota.  I do think that even having the possibility should be something we should uniformly restrict.

The Iowa Democratic caucuses were a mess because they used a web app to tabulate the votes instead of the old fashioned way of calling them in.  

I don't think its crazy to ask that for federal elections, we have one standard and then if a state wants to do something different for its own elections... well, have at it.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

So back onto something that I care deeply about (not basketball, but college players should be paid):

WSJ is reporting that the strategy for US tax increases has been officially split into two bits - corporate first connected to the infrastructure bill, and individual and other increases as a separate bill (that will also have provisions that are focused on education and anti-poverty measures).  The first, reading between the lines, has a snowball's chance of happening.  The second....I don't know if they can do through reconciliation.  They can try?  Anyhow, the individual stuff was always going to be harder because individuals vote.  I actually think that the capital gains rate is the easiest sacrifice.  It would probably last as long as the Reagan abolishment of the preference (yes, Reagan did that), but particularly if you phased out the preference for incomes over $X I think it is totally do-able, AND IT IS THE CORRECT POLICY.  The other individual rate increases....I just don't see them realistically happening, particularly if you are staring an election in the face in a year.

[mormont]

[mod] One thing we don't want to see, please, is people discussing why other people left the board. They're not around to speak for themselves and nobody else should be doing it for them. Thank you.  [/mod]