Covid-19 #28: Astra Projecting is an Out of Body Experience

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

Ah yes, the US where the word "free" is a euphemism for "selfish". I get why some Americans think people hate their freedom now.

In a word, yes, at least for some. Every Republican basically thinks this way, and many others do as well, whether they're conscious of it or not. But let's be real here. If this was a campaign issue in October, and Biden said he would take vaccines paid for my American taxpayers and give them to other countries before everyone here that wanted one got one, Trump and Republicans would have won in a landslide and the whole world would be worse off. It's nice to say we should be giving more vaccines away than we are, but it's terrible politics at home and our elected officials do have an obligation to prioritize their constituents.

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, Filippa Eilhart said:

Definitely the media in UK are doing a much better job at trying to assure the public that the vaccines are safe than European media. It’s totally intended that way. So even if they will report the blood clots, it will have thousands of assurances in the same article how the WHO, EMA, and the British regulator all declared it safe, some sort of word from an expert repeating the same and often a jab at Europe’s foolishness in not believing all said experts.

Yes.  This is well said.  It almost feels like a war footing in the UK (when it comes to vaccinations).  All hands on deck, fighting together.  While in the EU, its business as useful.  I think you can make an argument supporting both approaches but it has contributed to the EU being a little more negative about the vaccine (but I should stress, its far from the only reason for that).

In fairness to Fragile Bird, I don't think the Guardian has covered itself in any glory during this pandemic when discussing non-UK related issues, but we've been around and round on the "Blame the US", "Blame the UK" roundabout a few times now.  I started posting on this thread because I thought the narrative about the EU was flawed but I don't think its particularly useful to go crazy at the other end either.

As mentioned, the US does still have a rather high fatality rate, despite it improving a lot.  When you talk about exporting vaccines, you can't ignore that.  Although, people can be understandably frustrated that part of the reason for it to remain so high is that way too many people are behaving like there isn't a pandemic, causing cases to start growing again.  But no one person is going to change that.  (And in fairness to the UK, it has taken a much more measured appraoch to reducing restrictions).

[Arakan]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

*sigh*

Let's go thru this slowly.

I mentioned 20m doses of vaccines going to the UK. Because that's the sticking point of selfish uk importing, but not really exporting anything in return. So where did the vaccines go? Did they go in large quantities to South America or Africa? Nope, companies sold to the highest bidder. So your morale argument is, vaccines should go to the places that can pay the highest price. How very humanitarian of you.

DW's export numbers are lower. They were talking about 43m not 77m doses. Their numbers don't look right, as Israel is being left out, and it lists the UK at 10m instead of 20m.

Anyway, I am not arguing about the immorality of the US and the UK, but to borrow from Brecht: vaccines first, morals follow. And you know full well, that the outcry for export stops for vaccines are getting louder in Germany as well. So what was your point exactly?

I don't care if you are sick of that. He actively interefered in the 2016 to get him into office. That doesn't absolve the Americans from any blame. His election was their moral failure. Same with Brexit. At the end of the day, that was the decission of the Brits, as regrettable as it is. Will you tell me that Russia is merely defending crimea from the Ukraine?

There are whole lot of other issues, why I wouldn't look up to Russia as some sorta promised land, and why I think the ones who consider themselves to be on the left, should take a good hard look at what sorta leader Putin actually is, and what actions Russia takes on the international stage, and what happens there domestically. Then they should ask themselves, what exactly is it about Putin's Russia that's so appealing to them. The cleptocratic element? The persecution of political enemies (including assasinations)? The discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community? or is it just the strong man appeal? I don't find any of those things to be reconcillable with being on the left politically. If you are fine with that, okay, but count me out.

It’s at least 77m doses. This figure was published by Spiegel, Zeit, ARD, etc. (basically every news outlet) and EU officials. It was mentioned last week officially during the EU summit ffs! You are casting doubt where there is no doubt. Gaslighting. 

Ah, Germany. Whataboutism. Yes, voices for export bans (against the UK) are getting louder. Understandably so. Because it is fucking stupid to be the naive idiot in the room abiding by some principles while others are laughing and shitting on those principles. Anyway, again gaslighting. People are angry of exports to the UK especially, not to third countries in need. 

And finally, Putin strawman. My point was clear: Americans elected Donald Trump. Forget all externalizing, focus on how this could happen, how Qanon could happen, how Tea Party could happen, how such a divide and shift to the extreme right could happen. Internalize, self-reflect. And Trump was not the first idiot in office during my adult life time. GWB conveniently gets forgotten these days. Focus on a true analysis of the how and why? What is wrong with us? As an alcoholic it doesn’t help one iota to put the blame on one‘s enabler. Cut them out and focus on yourself. Self-reflect. Why? How? What to do?

And finally, who looks up to Russia as some promised land except bigots and white ethno nationalists? Basically the same people who admire Orban‘s Hungary. The rest of your ramblings is just a strawman or please quote me where I showed admiration for Russia or Putin? 

 

 

[Fragile Bird]

It seems we have been slightly unfair to the UK, as it has shipped some vaccine out of the country. I wanted to know where Bermuda got it’s vaccine and it seems the UK has sent 39,250 doses of the Pfizer vaccine to the island. Only Pfizer has been administered on Bermuda so far, they have an order for 26,400  AZ doses with COVAX but have not received any AZ yet and have no information as to when they will receive any.

 But apparently basically no AZ vaccine produced in the UK has been exported. I got involved in a conversation about vaccine exports from the UK on the internet last week, and someone insisted that the UK has exported vaccine doses, that it pledged to help provide 240,000 doses to former colonies. They linked an article (which I can’t find) from some British government office, whatever the colonial relations department is called now, and all of the vaccine appears to be Pfizer vaccine, so, once again, it’s really the EU that has vaccinated the islands in the Caribbean. And Gibraltar. I did see an article about Gibraltar’s vaccination program, and it’s all Pfizer, except for “a handful of doses of AZ, in case someone has an allergic reaction to the Pfizer vaccine”.

[Arakan]

43 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

In a word, yes, at least for some. Every Republican basically thinks this way, and many others do as well, whether they're conscious of it or not. But let's be real here. If this was a campaign issue in October, and Biden said he would take vaccines paid for my American taxpayers and give them to other countries before everyone here that wanted one got one, Trump and Republicans would have won in a landslide and the whole world would be worse off. It's nice to say we should be giving more vaccines away than we are, but it's terrible politics at home and our elected officials do have an obligation to prioritize their constituents.

The last sentence. I actually agree. But balance is needed. I understand when Biden‘s approach would have been: we will first vaccinate our vulnerable. Then we will help our friends and their vulnerables. But what the US and Biden have been doing the last 30 days at least is vaccinating every dog and cat. Meaning people way outside any risk group. As mentioned my girlfriend‘s cousin, a perfectly healthy 35 year old woman from Harrisburg, PA. 

Balance is the key word. Especially if you as a country claim for yourself to be the leader of the free world. As Biden did. And I see no leading right now. Ten thousands of people have been dying unnecessarily due to this complete selfish approach. Surplus deaths, not zero sum deaths. 

And ask yourself: how does it look when you don’t even help your neighbor (Canada) who instead gets support from 5,000 miles away (Europe)? People tend to remember such things for quite a long time if they are themselves affected. Not much leading of the free world, is it?

[Zorral]

Alas the CDC walked back Walensky's over-optimistic statement that fully vaccinated won't infect others asymptomatically.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/health/coronavirus-vaccine-walensky.html?

Quote

 

....The data suggest that “it’s much harder for vaccinated people to get infected, but don’t think for one second that they cannot get infected,” said Paul Duprex, director of the Center for Vaccine Research at the University of Pittsburgh.....

....“If Dr. Walensky had said most vaccinated people do not carry virus, we would not be having this discussion,” said John Moore, a virologist at Weill Cornell Medicine in New York.

“What we know is the vaccines are very substantially effective against infection — there’s more and more data on that — but nothing is 100 percent,” he added. “It is an important public health message that needs to be gotten right....

 

Keep wearing those masks, people!

[Clueless Northman]

4 hours ago, Padraig said:

But it doesn't negate the fact that, while the EU could in theory have shut the doors to all exports, if Pfizer had known that in advance, it would have almost certainly reconsidered relying as much on the Belgium factory. 

According to this logic, Pfizer shouldn't have relied as much on US factories as well, since these would basically be seized by US government for their own ends until all Americans get their double doses. Yet in this case, they didn't mind. Is it that Pfizer, as an American firm, kind of cares about USA and US people and doesn't give a damn about the others?

 

4 hours ago, Padraig said:

I think the EU exporting many vaccines is a very positive story.  I wish more countries had done so.  But comparisons with other countries aren't simple.

And this is the US/UK propaganda narrative. They're the only two countries on the planet to do it. And it is killing thousands of people. This is downright EVIL and needs to be addressed in those terms. From now on, their governments should never be allowed to ever claim again to be the good guys fighting for what's right or moral. Just like the other countries, actually.

The "US has plenty of deaths as well" argument will soon be a moot point, since at-risk people have basically all been vaccinated now, meanwhile the current death rate in Central and Eastern Europe is still horrible, yet half the vaccines produced in the Union have been and are being exported.

 

2 hours ago, Filippa Eilhart said:

Definitely the media in UK are doing a much better job at trying to assure the public that the vaccines are safe than European media. It’s totally intended that way. So even if they will report the blood clots, it will have thousands of assurances in the same article how the WHO, EMA, and the British regulator all declared it safe, some sort of word from an expert repeating the same and often a jab at Europe’s foolishness in not believing all said experts.

EU media should also be less critical, imho. Sure, AZ deserves to be bashed, but there should be limit to that kind of criticism, because it is still quite safe, and because reducing trust in vaccines when unfounded isn't really wise, considering the amount of anti-vaxx crap that's been going around for the last 6 months.

 

16 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

It seems we have been slightly unfair to the UK, as it has shipped some vaccine out of the country. I wanted to know where Bermuda got it’s vaccine and it seems the UK has sent 39,250 doses of the Pfizer vaccine to the island. Only Pfizer has been administered on Bermuda so far, they have an order for 26,400  AZ doses with COVAX but have not received any AZ yet and have no information as to when they will receive any.

Gibraltar and Bermuda are UK territories, basically. It would be a bit harsh and foolish from London government not to care about places they're supposed to actually oversee.

[Week]

2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I guess folks are just trying to figure out why decisions are made the way they are made, and it comes down to the people?  

Have you ever read the US politics thread? Do you think the opinions there are typically represented by those making decisions? 

[Zorral]

8 minutes ago, Arakan said:

But what the US and Biden have been doing the last 30 days at least is vaccinating every dog and cat. Meaning people way outside any risk group.

I need to push back gently a bit here: there are still millions and millions of the most vulnerable not vaccinated, not even partially vaccinated here in the US.  Millions who are finding it really difficult to get appointments and access.  There are so many still unsolved problems of logistics with the vaccination effort here in this very large nation, starting with the total deliberate catastrophe that was made of every aspect of the vaccines and vaccinations via every level of government, whether federal, state and local -- and the continuing cascade of that.  People right here in the US are as furious on their own behalf as you are on your behalf and others.  You aren't quite understanding how very difficult doing these things is here.

Also, I'd like to remind people that at least here in the USA -- but I think it came via Britain, the definition of liberty is "property."  As is 'virtue.' A man of virtue is a man of property.

 

[Zorral]

4 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

all at-risk people have basically all been vaccinated now

They have NOT. Not by a frackin' long shot.  How often must this be repeated?

You, me, we can blame the US for a great deal of evil (as well as your own nation, you know) -- good grief I probably know more than you do, and in detail of the sins of commission and omission of the US -- but there's no good to be achieved by accusations and statement that are not true or vast over-exaggerations.  Sheesh, I know people personally who are truly vulnerable from chemo and other treatments that create immuno threats, and others as well, and who are not vaccinated.  There are hundreds of thousands right here in the city I live in. Only 17% of NYC is fully vaccinated.

This isn't helping you or anyone else.

 

 

[williamjm]

31 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

It seems we have been slightly unfair to the UK, as it has shipped some vaccine out of the country. I wanted to know where Bermuda got it’s vaccine and it seems the UK has sent 39,250 doses of the Pfizer vaccine to the island. Only Pfizer has been administered on Bermuda so far, they have an order for 26,400  AZ doses with COVAX but have not received any AZ yet and have no information as to when they will receive any.

 But apparently basically no AZ vaccine produced in the UK has been exported. I got involved in a conversation about vaccine exports from the UK on the internet last week, and someone insisted that the UK has exported vaccine doses, that it pledged to help provide 240,000 doses to former colonies. They linked an article (which I can’t find) from some British government office, whatever the colonial relations department is called now, and all of the vaccine appears to be Pfizer vaccine, so, once again, it’s really the EU that has vaccinated the islands in the Caribbean. And Gibraltar. I did see an article about Gibraltar’s vaccination program, and it’s all Pfizer, except for “a handful of doses of AZ, in case someone has an allergic reaction to the Pfizer vaccine”.

I was reading an article about Ascension Island which might be the first territory to be fully vaccinated (not hard to do when it's got less than 1000 people) which said they used AZ vaccine.

However, I don't feel it really counts as an export if it's to somewhere whose population are all British citizens like Gibraltar/Bermuda/Ascension Island, even if they're not technically part of the UK.

[Fragile Bird]

You know, nobody has vaccinated all at-risk people. You’d think that people over 70 would be largely vaccinated, but if vaccines are not mandatory that will never happen. In China, perhaps. And the US, for various reasons we have often discussed, had a staggering high percentage of people with what are considered high risk conditions. 

 

[Week]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I need to push back gently a bit here: there are still millions and millions of the most vulnerable not vaccinated, not even partially vaccinated here in the US.  Millions who are finding it really difficult to get appointments and access.  There are so many still unsolved problems of logistics with the vaccination effort here in this very large nation, starting with the total deliberate catastrophe that was made of every aspect of the vaccines and vaccinations via every level of government, whether federal, state and local -- and the continuing cascade of that.  People right here in the US are as furious on their own behalf as you are on your behalf and others.  You aren't quite understanding how very difficult doing these things is here.

This. Every state has been botching the roll out in their own special way. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

55 minutes ago, Arakan said:

It’s at least 77m doses. This figure was published by Spiegel, Zeit, ARD, etc. (basically every news outlet) and EU officials. It was mentioned last week officially during the EU summit ffs! You are casting doubt where there is no doubt. Gaslighting. 

Nope, I am really not, I explicitly said, that the DW numbers look too low and I also explicitly said the numbers are also leaving out Israel. Just gave the link anyway to show where the vaccines are heading. But fine, play dumb if you like. You are quite adept at that, I might add.

55 minutes ago, Arakan said:

And finally, Putin strawman. My point was clear: Americans elected Donald Trump. Forget all externalizing, focus on how this could happen, how Qanon could happen, how Tea Party could happen, how such a divide and shift to the extreme right could happen. Internalize, self-reflect. And Trump was not the first idiot in office during my adult life time. GWB conveniently gets forgotten these days. Focus on a true analysis of the how and why? What is wrong with us? As an alcoholic it doesn’t help one iota to put the blame on one‘s enabler. Cut them out and focus on yourself. Self-reflect. Why? How? What to do?

I am not here to educate you on the concept of causality, kiddo. Contributing factors, INUS model by Mackie etc. But again, if you want to play dumb fine. But you are arguing for closer ties between the EU and Russia. Be it here or in your NWO thread.

[Fez]

Huh. So, I just got an email from the county government, inviting me to register for a vaccine appointment. Apparently a BMI of 25.1 counts as overweight, and is a pre-existing condition, so now that everyone 18+ with a pre-existing condition here can register I'm good to go. Feels a bit weird, but I'm not going to say no.

Got an appointment for next Wednesday. It's far enough away that I have rented a car for the day, but what's $68 against getting the vaccine? There is another clinic closer by that I could've walked to, but they only have the J&J vaccine, and I want one of the two-shot options.

[Fragile Bird]

3 minutes ago, Fez said:

Huh. So, I just got an email from the county government, inviting me to register for a vaccine appointment. Apparently a BMI of 25.1 counts as overweight, and is a pre-existing condition, so now that everyone 18+ with a pre-existing condition here can register I'm good to go. Feels a bit weird, but I'm not going to say no.

Got an appointment for next Wednesday. It's far enough away that I have rented a car for the day, but what's $68 against getting the vaccine? There is another clinic closer by that I could've walked to, but they only have the J&J vaccine, and I want one of the two-shot options.

Sweet Jesus in heaven. A BMI of 25.1?

Because we have no vaccine, or, not like the US, the BMI level qualifying you for a vaccine appointment is 40. 

I dream of a 25.1 BMI.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

That being said, it's weird to read the last few pages and read comments making broad generalizations not about a nation's policies or politics, but about the national character of its people, whether it be Poland, the US, or the UK.  I can't see anything productive coming from that, and do not understand what purpose it serves.

Indeed.  The whining about "Team America" type people is getting just as over the top and annoying as those people themselves.

[Week]

30 minutes ago, DMC said:

Indeed.  The whining about "Team America" type people is getting just as over the top and annoying as those people themselves.

No, see, in the US we are as lucky as we are evil because in April 2021 the US is vaccinating it's own population to stem another wave of deaths. Forget the last 16 months of hell where 560,000 people died (and counting at about 1k per day) - three times the per capita deaths of, say, Canada. The current state of things is all that matters. /S

Not to mention that most people from the US on here would agree that, particularly with much better distribution (which was fucked, thanks Trump), the US should absolutely be exporting the vaccine globally and that probably will be the case in a month's time. However, we get the luxury of tar and feathering from our friends across borders for now. Such fun.