Will Euron's blood magic ritual work?

[Egged]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You think so? It is magical steel. It withstands high temperatures, so chances are not that bad that it also doesn't pass on those temperatures to a wearer. Euron doesn't just have Valyrian armor to dodge some arrows...

https://i.imgur.com/3pNEdzb.jpg 

Euron would need Valyrian Steel skin. And eyes. And teeth. And eardrums. It's good to protect a dragon rider from volleys of arrows, not to fight a dragon.

MAYBE it could actually absorb the fire, as it is said to "drink light". Much like in the old myth of the thousands of dragons that came forth, drinking the sun, was likely not about dragons but about Valyrian steel swords being forged, or the meteorites Valyrian steel is made from (the oily black stones) drinking light, such as how in Asshai it makes the world seem perpetually darker.

If so, Euron might look like a knight in shining armor, like Dawn is alive with light, once his armor drinks dragonfire blasted at him.

"It's a mircale! Praise the Seven!" to most people's eyes. Imagine that, Euron, all in shining bright armor, maybe even with Dawn at some point in his hands.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Egged said:

https://i.imgur.com/3pNEdzb.jpg 

Euron would need Valyrian Steel skin. And eyes. And teeth. And eardrums. It's good to protect a dragon rider from volleys of arrows, not to fight a dragon.

MAYBE it could actually absorb the fire, as it is said to "drink light". Much like in the old myth of the thousands of dragons that came forth, drinking the sun, was likely not about dragons but about Valyrian steel swords being forged, or the meteorites Valyrian steel is made from (the oily black stones) drinking light, such as how in Asshai it makes the world seem perpetually darker.

If so, Euron might look like a knight in shining armor, like Dawn is alive with light, once his armor drinks dragonfire blasted at him.

"It's a mircale! Praise the Seven!" to most people's eyes. Imagine that, Euron, all in shining bright armor, maybe even with Dawn at some point in his hands.

It is magical armor. That's all what I'm saying to this one.

And I don't expect Euron to literally walk into the dragon's mouth if he were to become or try to become a dragonslayer. Just that his special armor would allow him to get much closer to one of Dany's dragons, much more likely to survive a close encounter with the dragon and not him biting the dust.

[chrisdaw]

On 3/28/2021 at 11:05 AM, Falcon2909 said:

TWOW spoilers ahead.  

So Euron is killing heaps of people and collecting their blood for a blood magic ritual probably to summon krakens to destroy the Redwyne fleet.  He has a big ship to store this blood. The number of people he has had killed must be a LOT.  

Thing is, Euron does not care about these people he has killed. They were not special or did not mean anything to him. What I'm saying is he did not sacrifice anyone - except his unborn child in Falia and aeron. Even though they are related by blood (kinship) he does not love them or care about them. 

Melisandre says this: 

What I understand from this quote is it is pointless and ineffective to sacrifice those who are not dear to you. If a man with only one cow sacrifices his only cow he will be extremely distraught because this single cow was his companion, he cared about her, his means of livelihood, it put food on his table. 

Euron doing a blood ritual of the thousands of people he killed -people he does not love or care about - well... I don't think this blood magic ritual will succeed.  It will be an epic fail. Best case scenario - ritual is only a little effective and summons a few krakens which barely damages the Redwyne Fleet. Best case or Worst case - Euron messed up and will die in the Redwyne straits.

 

also a question: when sacrificing the one you love for a blood magic ritual, will it only work if you kill them with your own hands or will it also work if you get some people to do it for you? Pretty sure Euron's soldiers did almost all of the killing for the blood. Dany killed Drogo with her own hands. If she had asked Jorah or someone I dont know if her ritual would have worked  to hatch dragons.

That his sacrifices are for krakens to destroy his enemies is an assumption.

What Euron is mostly doing here is experimenting, it's a trial for what he's intending to do with Dany for Dragons. Falia is playing Dany's role.

What will happen after the Forsaken is Aeron will second life a Leviathan. Euron may also be able to skinchange a Kraken or Krakens.

[Darth Sidious]

Time seems to go backwards to a darker age. Euron is sacrificing to the gods. Mel wants to sacrifice too. Bran saw his ancestors making human sacrifice to the weirwood. People are going back to their savage, primitive ways. These different religions and their gods are heading towards conflict. It’s also a conflict of the elements. The sea attacking the land. The ironborn is the sea water attacking the lands. The Hightowers and the people of the coasts are the land. 

[Falcon2909]

On 3/29/2021 at 2:43 AM, Lord Varys said:

 

It is not the case that you have to sacrifice only things you deeply love to get a magical result - Stannis and Mel sacrifice Alester Florent to create a powerful wind, yet neither of them loved or cared much for that man.

And sorcery in general isn't rooted only in blood magic or sacrifice, especially not the sacrifice of people you love. Qyburn created his undead monster without sacrificing anything he or Cersei loved, the Faceless Men change their faces without sacrificing any loved ones, etc.

Good point, I had completely forgotten about that. So human sacrifice -whether you love them or not - does let you get magical results. If the human is related to you, the more powerful it will be (?) . 

If Stannis had sacrificed Shireen (who is his dearest) instead of alester, would the wind have been much much more powerful?

 

I don't think the Hightowers would be willing to ally with Euron tbh. He's evil

[Falcon2909]

On 3/31/2021 at 3:23 PM, chrisdaw said:

 

What Euron is mostly doing here is experimenting, it's a trial for what he's intending to do with Dany for Dragons. Falia is playing Dany's role.

What will happen after the Forsaken is Aeron will second life a Leviathan. Euron may also be able to skinchange a Kraken or Krakens.

If he's experimenting then he better hope he makes it out alive because he's surrounded by Redwyne ships. Very very risky experiment

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

Good point, I had completely forgotten about that. So human sacrifice -whether you love them or not - does let you get magical results. If the human is related to you, the more powerful it will be (?) . 

If Stannis had sacrificed Shireen (who is his dearest) instead of alester, would the wind have been much much more powerful?

It seems as if one can get shinier things if one makes true sacrifices, i.e. sacrifices people one loves, priced possessions, etc. That is the point of the Azor Ahai story and, effectively, what Daenerys had to do to get her dragons (if you count the fact that she lost Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo).

Shireen is Stannis' only child, so she certainly is important to him, but whether she is his dearest is completely unknown so far. In the books the man never so much as talked to his daughter so far, nor did he give her any sign of affection or favor that we know of. That she is his heir right now is just because he has nobody else. While Renly was still around, he offered to name him his heir instead of Shireen.

11 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

I don't think the Hightowers would be willing to ally with Euron tbh. He's evil

Oh, but Euron has this double face. He has a smiling and an evil eye. Now, the audience unterestimated him because back in AFfC we just saw his smiling eye, and people just thought about or remembered his evil side. Euron will show his power when he crushes the Redwyne fleet, but afterwards he will smile again, offering good terms and favors to those men who bend the knee to him. He might even show mercy to Paxter's family and kin on the Arbor, taking over the Redwyne wine empire that's generating so much money rather than stupidly sacking the island. If Euron captures Mina Tyrell Redwyne - Paxter's wife and Mace's sister - he could even put pressure on Highgarden.

The idea is that there is no way for the Hightowers to get rid of the Ironborn once the Redwynes are defeated. Euron will then take the Arbor, meaning he would have a powerful homebase in the region, and the strength at sea to complete ruin the Oldtowners. Their wealth is based on trade, but trade by ship will then no longer happen without Euron's permission. He will have the power to cut off Oldtown from international trade.

And that the Oldtowners won't have. If the Hightowers were to insist to continue to fight against Euron, they would have an uprising at their hands. It also has been established that the Hightowers submitted to the Ironborn kings in the past, so this would be nothing new for them. Of course this wouldn't mean they would be particularly loyal - like most lords Stannis took over after Renly's death, the Hightowers would abandon or turn against Euron as soon as he showed a weakness or lost a battle. But after his victory over the Redwynes and for the time being they will likely meet his demands.

[Hippocras]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems as if one can get shinier things if one makes true sacrifices, i.e. sacrifices people one loves, priced possessions, etc. That is the point of the Azor Ahai story and, effectively, what Daenerys had to do to get her dragons (if you count the fact that she lost Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo).

Shireen is Stannis' only child, so she certainly is important to him, but whether she is his dearest is completely unknown so far. In the books the man never so much as talked to his daughter so far, nor did he give her any sign of affection or favor that we know of. That she is his heir right now is just because he has nobody else. While Renly was still around, he offered to name him his heir instead of Shireen.

Oh, but Euron has this double face. He has a smiling and an evil eye. Now, the audience unterestimated him because back in AFfC we just saw his smiling eye, and people just thought about or remembered his evil side. Euron will show his power when he crushes the Redwyne fleet, but afterwards he will smile again, offering good terms and favors to those men who bend the knee to him. He might even show mercy to Paxter's family and kin on the Arbor, taking over the Redwyne wine empire that's generating so much money rather than stupidly sacking the island. If Euron captures Mina Tyrell Redwyne - Paxter's wife and Mace's sister - he could even put pressure on Highgarden.

The idea is that there is no way for the Hightowers to get rid of the Ironborn once the Redwynes are defeated. Euron will then take the Arbor, meaning he would have a powerful homebase in the region, and the strength at sea to complete ruin the Oldtowners. Their wealth is based on trade, but trade by ship will then no longer happen without Euron's permission. He will have the power to cut off Oldtown from international trade.

And that the Oldtowners won't have. If the Hightowers were to insist to continue to fight against Euron, they would have an uprising at their hands. It also has been established that the Hightowers submitted to the Ironborn kings in the past, so this would be nothing new for them. Of course this wouldn't mean they would be particularly loyal - like most lords Stannis took over after Renly's death, the Hightowers would abandon or turn against Euron as soon as he showed a weakness or lost a battle. But after his victory over the Redwynes and for the time being they will likely meet his demands.

This is a bit backwards though. Cersei still has Redwyne hostages in KL. So Lord Redwyne will not "bend the knee" to Euron unless/until Euron's cause is joined with Cersei's (something which has certainly been hinted at). But frankly I think Redwyne's fealty is not all that important once their fleet is destroyed and I am pretty sure it will be. As for Cersei, Robert Strong may be the only thing that could stand in the way of Euron turning her into another Falia, so he may marry her or at least become her lover and new Hand/lord admiral but he will not be able to entirely subdue her. It seems to me Euron's conquests in the Reach and eventually the Stormlands may also be key to Cersei staying in power if and when Tommen and Myrcella are dead.

IMO Euron needs to seem like a legitimate threat and worthy opponent to Dany. Without his blood magic ritual, Dany would have a monopoly on the awesome power of magical beings (after Stannis's cause fizzles), and her conquest of Westeros would be too easy. So Euron will use magic to defeat the Redwynes, hobble the maester network and the Faith, seriously impair Aegon if not outright defeating him, and become the best friend Cersei ever had - until he is not.

[Moiraine Sedai]

The world of ice and fire is low magic. It is also a criticism of overly strong faith. Killing all those people won't make a miracle strong enough to control the climate but it could affect the seers. Bran is a greenseer because uses the trees. Maybe the drowned god is a water seer. Giving human sacrifice to the sea make this seer more powerful. 

[Hippocras]

7 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The world of ice and fire is low magic. It is also a criticism of overly strong faith. Killing all those people won't make a miracle strong enough to control the climate but it could affect the seers. Bran is a greenseer because uses the trees. Maybe the drowned god is a water seer. Giving human sacrifice to the sea make this seer more powerful. 

I doubt just giving them to the sea is enough. I mean, the Ironborn have been drowning people anywhere and everywhere for a very long time without any kind of magical outcome. It was just conquest. So while I don't know at all what Euron is up to, it has to be something more complex than just drowning people.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

This is a bit backwards though. Cersei still has Redwyne hostages in KL. So Lord Redwyne will not "bend the knee" to Euron unless/until Euron's cause is joined with Cersei's (something which has certainly been hinted at). But frankly I think Redwyne's fealty is not all that important once their fleet is destroyed and I am pretty sure it will be. As for Cersei, Robert Strong may be the only thing that could stand in the way of Euron turning her into another Falia, so he may marry her or at least become her lover and new Hand/lord admiral but he will not be able to entirely subdue her. It seems to me Euron's conquests in the Reach and eventually the Stormlands may also be key to Cersei staying in power if and when Tommen and Myrcella are dead.

I'd expect that Paxter Redwyne is going to go down with his fleet and/or is killed by Euron's people. He won't be given a chance to bend the knee. But it doesn't really matter whether he lives or dies because Cersei definitely doesn't have his sons as 'hostages'. Cersei has been removed from power and Tommen's government right now is run by Mace Tyrell and his buddies - one of which is Paxter Redwyne who is Master of Ships.

Cersei is also not likely to regain the regency, nor will she be able to remain in KL for long - because Aegon is coming. Her hooking up with Euron will involve her leaving KL to visit him on the Arbor, not Euron coming to her.

Together they might, eventually, retake KL and the Iron Throne from whoever might hold it at the time (possibly Aegon) but she is never going to be a Queen Regnant in the process of all that - just the queen consort at King Euron's side. But that still will be something, especially if Euron were to hand the reins of government to her while he is the field or abroad with his fleet to fight, say, Daenerys.

I'd also not count on Qyburn and his monster to remain absolutely loyal to Cersei. He could right now sell her out to the Tyrells (although he most likely won't) but once they join Euron chances are not that bad that he likes to work with this sorcerer king much better than working for Cersei. With Euron, Qyburn could explore many new and unchartered magical projects...

Cersei's power in the partnership she will forge with Euron will rest on the Lannister gold she controls, as well as on the armies of Westermen she will be able to raise. And both is going to be significant for the battles they will fight on the mainland.

[Egged]

Quote

"Four-and-fifty ships is too few," he told the dusky woman, "but I can wait no longer. The only way"—He grunted as she peeled the bandage off, tearing a crust of scab as well. The flesh beneath was green and black where the sword had sliced him.—"the only way to do this is to take the slavers unawares, as once I did at Lannisport. Sweep in from the sea and smash them, then take the girl and race for home before the Volantenes descend upon us." Victarion was no craven, but no more was he a fool; he could not defeat three hundred ships with fifty-four. "She'll be my wife, and you will be her maid." A maid without a tongue could never let slip any secrets.

Quote

Grief appeared alone at daybreak, her black sails stark against the pale pink skies of morning.
Fifty-four, Victarion thought sourly when they woke him, and she sails alone. Silently he cursed the Storm God for his malice, his rage a black stone in his belly. Where are my ships?
He had set sail from the Shields with ninety-three, of the hundred that had once made up the Iron Fleet, a fleet belonging not to a single lord but to the Seastone Chair itself, captained and crewed by men from all the islands. Ships smaller than the great war dromonds of the green lands, aye, but thrice the size of any common longship, with deep hulls and savage rams, fit to meet the king's own fleets in battle.

The ships are heading back to Westeros, to the East Coast, to attack Storm's End.

Quote

A smile played across Euron's blue lips. "I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last."

 

[Falcon2909]

On 4/2/2021 at 11:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

It

Very interesting!  I can see Leyton marrying off one of his daughters to Euron or his bannermen. Malora comes to mind and she seems to have an affinity for magic which Euron given his nature would fine intriguing. 

as for "Viserys's death hatching one of the dragon eggs" did that really happen? What I mean is did his death cause that to happen? He was killed long before in Vaes Dothrak plus it was Drogo not Dany who killed him.

[Loose Bolt]

On 4/2/2021 at 3:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

If the Hightowers were to insist to continue to fight against Euron, they would have an uprising at their hands. It also has been established that the Hightowers submitted to the Ironborn kings in the past, so this would be nothing new for them

Would the Faith and Citadel accept that peace with Euron? As a warlock pagan he is clearly enemy of 7 so there should be many people in Oldtown who would not accept that peace. Or if Hightowers make a deal with E they might found themselves as a enemy of the Faith and became target of religious uprising. So unless lord Leyton can be sure that he will not has to worry about that I suspect that he cannot asunder but would have to keep fighting against E.

[Hippocras]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd expect that Paxter Redwyne is going to go down with his fleet and/or is killed by Euron's people. He won't be given a chance to bend the knee. But it doesn't really matter whether he lives or dies because Cersei definitely doesn't have his sons as 'hostages'. Cersei has been removed from power and Tommen's government right now is run by Mace Tyrell and his buddies - one of which is Paxter Redwyne who is Master of Ships.

Cersei is also not likely to regain the regency, nor will she be able to remain in KL for long - because Aegon is coming. Her hooking up with Euron will involve her leaving KL to visit him on the Arbor, not Euron coming to her.

I disagree, but we will see. Cersei will not budge. She knows full well that proximity to the Throne IS power for her, and she has none the instant she leaves. She does not even have the Westerlands: Other Lannisters would be higher in the pecking order if not for the simple fact that Cersei is queen. So she will find a way to stay. Furthermore, Euron knows it. He KNOWS all he needs to do to get power over all of the Seven Kingdoms is to win over Cersei, and all he needs in order to do that is subdue her enemies.

Paxter Redwyne is married to Mace Tyrell's older sister. An assault on the Redwyne fleet is effectively an assault on the Tyrells and Cersei will love that. She will also love that Euron could not care less about the Gods. She's pretty fed up with religion. Oldtown is not just the centre of power of the Hightowers, it is also a centre for the Faith (if not as important as it once was). So that leaves Aegon. The Tyrells will use their time in power fighting a war of two fronts against Euron in the Southwest and Aegon in the Southeast, and while they are preoccupied, Cersei will have only the single mission of undermining them and subverting them in King's Landing, while all the time pretending to be docile and broken.

Cersei has made plenty of stupid decisions but it is a mistake to underestimate her and dismiss her as finished. She makes her best moves when cornered. As for Qyburn, Cersei is really very key for him. Her being in power is what allows him to do what he does without restrictions or oversight. So while Robert Strong is Qyburn's creature, he is a creature made for the purpose of protecting Cersei.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

Very interesting!  I can see Leyton marrying off one of his daughters to Euron or his bannermen. Malora comes to mind and she seems to have an affinity for magic which Euron given his nature would fine intriguing.

Such an offer might take place, but Euron is not going to accept it. He wants Daenerys ... and in the meantime Cersei is going to offer herself, which is a much better match than a Hightower girl.

9 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

as for "Viserys's death hatching one of the dragon eggs" did that really happen? What I mean is did his death cause that to happen? He was killed long before in Vaes Dothrak plus it was Drogo not Dany who killed him.

It isn't a direct link to the magical ritual, but more a symbolic preparation for her role to do this. Daenerys did lose - and likely had to lose - everything before she could get the dragons. That's what it took on a symbolic-magical level. In the end, Mirri's sacrifice was enough, but we can expect that only her earlier losses put her into the position to pull of the dragon-hatching.

5 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Would the Faith and Citadel accept that peace with Euron? As a warlock pagan he is clearly enemy of 7 so there should be many people in Oldtown who would not accept that peace. Or if Hightowers make a deal with E they might found themselves as a enemy of the Faith and became target of religious uprising. So unless lord Leyton can be sure that he will not has to worry about that I suspect that he cannot asunder but would have to keep fighting against E.

The Faith's center no longer is in Oldtown, so the Hightowers would have nothing to fear from them. And as Sam realizes in his last chapter, Oldtown is pissed at the fact that the Iron Throne abandoned them to the Ironborn. If the Redwynes fail, then nobody can help them get rid of them, so they will have to make a deal or risk their wealth. They don't have the ships to defeat them, it would take months and years to build them ... while Euron could constantly raid their coasts, etc. Not to mention completely stop or greatly reduce the trade to Oldtown.

By the idea I have is not that the Hightowers would *really* join Euron, but rather submit to him formally, recognize him as king, give him token forces and support ... while at the same time plotting to get rid of him eventually.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I disagree, but we will see. Cersei will not budge. She knows full well that proximity to the Throne IS power for her, and she has none the instant she leaves. She does not even have the Westerlands: Other Lannisters would be higher in the pecking order if not for the simple fact that Cersei is queen. So she will find a way to stay. Furthermore, Euron knows it. He KNOWS all he needs to do to get power over all of the Seven Kingdoms is to win over Cersei, and all he needs in order to do that is subdue her enemies.

That is factually wrong. Cersei Lannister is the Lady of Casterly Rock, the Westerlands and all the Lannister wealth belong to her, and nobody else.

Euron has, so far, shown no interest in Cersei ... and I doubt he ever will. He wants Daenerys. But Cersei is going to realize that Euron could be her way back to power. She will offer herself to him, not the other way around. And Euron will agree because his bid for power is going to lose momentum if he doesn't get Daenerys (soon).

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Paxter Redwyne is married to Mace Tyrell's older sister. An assault on the Redwyne fleet is effectively an assault on the Tyrells and Cersei will love that. She will also love that Euron could not care less about the Gods. She's pretty fed up with religion. Oldtown is not just the centre of power of the Hightowers, it is also a centre for the Faith (if not as important as it once was). So that leaves Aegon. The Tyrells will use their time in power fighting a war of two fronts against Euron in the Southwest and Aegon in the Southeast, and while they are preoccupied, Cersei will have only the single mission of undermining them and subverting them in King's Landing, while all the time pretending to be docile and broken.

Of course, for Cersei Euron crushing the Redwynes is likely going to be the deciding factor convincing her to ally with him ... but Mace Tyrell won't spend himself fighting Aegon and Euron at the same time. They can do both of the same time, considering the Tyrells have still about 40,000 men in KL. But the end of the fight against Euron will come with the destruction of the Redwynes.

Cersei won't stay in KL for all of that. She will fear for her life after the double murder, and Aegon will take KL in the near future. That's why he is in the story.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Cersei has made plenty of stupid decisions but it is a mistake to underestimate her and dismiss her as finished. She makes her best moves when cornered. As for Qyburn, Cersei is really very key for him. Her being in power is what allows him to do what he does without restrictions or oversight. So while Robert Strong is Qyburn's creature, he is a creature made for the purpose of protecting Cersei.

Cersei doesn't have the men or the strength to retake the reins of power in KL. And if the Tyrells were defeated or defect to Aegon she will have no men defending her against Aegon. She is down to a couple of hundred of Lannister guardsmen ... not enough for a coup, and certainly not enough for a proper defense of the city. Especially not against a Targaryen pretender who is loved by the Kingslanders.

Cersei could raise another army in the West, possibly more than one ... but that would be difficult without her being in the West doing it personally, not to mention any such army would have to cross the war-torn Riverlands.

And with Pycelle dead, Cersei lacks even access to the rookery.

[Hippocras]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is factually wrong. Cersei Lannister is the Lady of Casterly Rock, the Westerlands and all the Lannister wealth belong to her, and nobody else.

Euron has, so far, shown no interest in Cersei ... and I doubt he ever will. He wants Daenerys. But Cersei is going to realize that Euron could be her way back to power. She will offer herself to him, not the other way around. And Euron will agree because his bid for power is going to lose momentum if he doesn't get Daenerys (soon).

No, if you are going just by birthright, Tyrion comes before Cersei and he is still alive. Jaimie can  be made available simply by being ejected from the Kingsguard. Would they choose to follow Cersei with Tyrion and Jaime alive? Maybe they would have if she was a good leader and doing so was in their interest, but it is only in their interest if she is in KL. Once she leaves KL she provides absolutely nothing of value to them. She is not queen. She is not Lady of Casterly Rock. She is not Warden of the West. She has lost her influence over Jaime. She is not a good leader, and she has no allies. She is a liability. Tyrion killed Tywin, so many would no doubt reject him as well, but that just means that they would start looking at the competent cousins uncles and aunts, of which she has several. Until Cersei makes her move to regain power in KL she has no power at all in the Westerlands either.

You discuss things as if you have some kind of secret line on GRRM and know things for fact that are not actually written yet. There is just nothing at all that makes it certain that Aegon will take KL. He has taken Storm's End so has control of much of the Stormlands, and no doubt with the troubles in the Reach Aegon will try to make an alliance with the Tyrells. But the Tyrells want Margaery to be queen. She is queen with Tommen, and killing Tommen to free her for remarriage is too risky as there would be no guarantee Aegon would then marry her. The Tyrells will therefore not jump at the chance of any alliance other than what they already have if it does not result in maintaining their royal status. They will only quit their KL alliance when Cersei forces them out or kills them.

It is in Euron's interest to help Cersei's cause. Yes, he is aiming ultimately for Dany, but Dany is not yet in Westeros. Just like Aegon, it is in Euron's interest to conquer first and he is not above doing some of his conquering in the bedroom. So Euron and Aegon are rivals for the same prize, which means Euron will aim to take out Aegon. His best path to Dany therefore lies in making an alliance with Cersei to defeat Aegon with the idea of eventually killing Cersei and offering Dany KL, after neutralizing any threat to himself of her dragons.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

No, if you are going just by birthright, Tyrion comes before Cersei and he is still alive. Jaimie can  be made available simply by being ejected from the Kingsguard. Would they choose to follow Cersei with Tyrion and Jaime alive?

Cersei already IS the Lady of Casterly Rock. She takes over the lordship after the death of her father in AFfC. That is in the book, you can go back and read it. Jaime is in the Kingsguard and Tyrion is an attainted traitor and kinslayer ... nobody will ever accept the murderer of the great Lord Tywin as Lord of Casterly Rock. If Tyrion wants to take the Rock, dragonfire has to pave his way for that ... and even then chances are good that vile, ugly monster is going to be killed in his sleep by a servant or retainer loyal to the legacy of Lord Tywin.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Maybe they would have if she was a good leader and doing so was in their interest, but it is only in their interest if she is in KL. Once she leaves KL she provides absolutely nothing of value to them. She is not queen. She is not Lady of Casterly Rock. She is not Warden of the West. She has lost her influence over Jaime. She is not a good leader, and she has no allies. She is a liability. Tyrion killed Tywin, so many would no doubt reject him as well, but that just means that they would start looking at the competent cousins uncles and aunts, of which she has several. Until Cersei makes her move to regain power in KL she has no power at all in the Westerlands either.

Cersei doesn't have to make any move to establish her power in KL to exert the power over the Westerlands she already has as Lady of Casterly Rock. She already acted in that capacity in AFfC when she named a new Warden of the West and a new castellan of Casterly Rock.

The West is hers, and the Westermen have no problem with that. Some members of her family - Kevan, Genna, Jaime - did have concern with her serving as Queen Regent, but that's over now.

The very idea you propose - that Cersei first has to establish herself as Lady of Casterly Rock or that this was some kind of process where the opinions of other Lannisters or Westermen would even matter - is completely without basis.

In fact, there is even a good chance that in light of the fact how Cersei has been mistreated by the Faith and the Tyrells that the Westermen will be willing to go to great lengths to avenge Cersei's honor on her enemies ... even more so, if she returns to the Rock not just as a sorely beset and helpless widow, but as a former queen who saw her father and all her children being murdered by evil people.

The entire chivalric culture of Westeros revolves around protecting the innocent - women and children, especially. Within that framework somebody like Cersei can use her womanhood as an advantage, especially in light of the fact that no Westermen ever witnessed her public humiliation firsthand. The Kingslanders and Tyrells saw that - and thus it is out of the question that these folks will ever again respect, fear, or submit to that woman unless they are forced to do so by fire and sword.

Cersei no longer has a power base in KL she could use ... not that she had one prior to her walk, considering she never really tried to win the love of the Kingslanders.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

You discuss things as if you have some kind of secret line on GRRM and know things for fact that are not actually written yet. There is just nothing at all that makes it certain that Aegon will take KL. He has taken Storm's End so has control of much of the Stormlands, and no doubt with the troubles in the Reach Aegon will try to make an alliance with the Tyrells. But the Tyrells want Margaery to be queen. She is queen with Tommen, and killing Tommen to free her for remarriage is too risky as there would be no guarantee Aegon would then marry her. The Tyrells will therefore not jump at the chance of any alliance other than what they already have if it does not result in maintaining their royal status. They will only quit their KL alliance when Cersei forces them out or kills them.

For Aegon to rise, the Tyrells in KL have to be defeated, of course. And that is likely to happen since we already know that the Tyrell army at KL will march against Aegon at Storm's End.

Now, technically, it is possible they win there, and Aegon is killed or has to retreat to Essos or something along those lines ... but a Tyrell victory there would only strengthen Mace's hold on Tommen's government. It would not profit Cersei at all, because with Kevan out of the way Mace and Margaery and Randyll Tarly can - and likely intend to - make Cersei pay for what she tried to do to Margaery and her cousins. Without Kevan, there is nobody there who could protect Cersei from the wrath of the Tyrells.

Qyburn and his monster cannot protect Cersei from tens of thousands of Tyrell soldiers.

But, in any case, the plot as set out indicates the plan is that Aegon can take KL and the Iron Throne very quickly - that is why he invaded before Daenerys, and it is also the point of the cloth dragon in front of a cheering crowd vision - which is likely to symbolize Aegon being cheered as Rhaegar's son and the savior of Westeros by the happy people of King's Landing after King Tommen is gone.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is in Euron's interest to help Cersei's cause. Yes, he is aiming ultimately for Dany, but Dany is not yet in Westeros. Just like Aegon, it is in Euron's interest to conquer first and he is not above doing some of his conquering in the bedroom. So Euron and Aegon are rivals for the same prize, which means Euron will aim to take out Aegon. His best path to Dany therefore lies in making an alliance with Cersei to defeat Aegon with the idea of eventually killing Cersei and offering Dany KL, after neutralizing any threat to himself of her dragons.

Euron would never offer himself as ally or partner to Cersei. To even consider that, he would have to know for a certainty that Daenerys is not coming ... and that is something he won't learn tomorrow. Some time will pass for that to happen. Once he learns about Aegon he'll definitely be pissed, but while Tommen and Myrcella are still around he should also not really consider it a viable option to ally with Cersei ... who would want her children to rule, not a King Euron.

In fact, the entire Euron-Cersei alliance only makes sense if Tommen - and perhaps Myrcella as well - is dead, because only then would Cersei consider to ally with a rival pretender for the Iron Throne. She would do everything to protect Tommen while he lives, so he has to be dead.

[Egged]

All it takes is the Golden Company's fleet to be destroyed and Aegon to break his neck for them to offer a contract to Cersei. And Euron is in a position to leave no competitor standing to offer Cersei her own fleet. And the ships Victarion thinks he lost to a storm are coming back.

C+E = yes

Daenerys is too powerful for Euron, she's competition.

"I am the storm. The first and the last."

Quote

 

According to legend, Durran won the love of Elenei, the daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind, during the Age of Heroes. Her divine parents forbade their love, but Durran and Elenei wed despite them. The gods' wrath was terrible to behold, destroying Durran's keep on his wedding night and killing all his family and guests, but Durran survived under Elenei's protection. Enraged, Durran declared war on the gods, who replied by hammering his kingdom with massive storms. Each time Durran built a castle to face the sea the gods destroyed it.

King Durran persisted in building larger and more powerful fortifications, until finally the seventh castle, Storm's End, stayed in place and resisted the storms of Shipbreaker Bay. Some believe this is because the children of the forest took a hand in its construction; others believe that a young boy, who grew up to be Bran the Builder, advised Durran on its construction. The truth of the matter is unknown.

Storm's End, ends, finally.

Since I believe all the stories of Bran the Builder are actually about the future, where Bran will be king and have the wall rebuilt, I expect him to also have Storm's End rebuilt, and High Tower.

What a coincidence that all three of those, said to have been built by Bran the Builder, are at risk of being destroyed very soon. Maybe it is because Bran the Builder saw their destruction in his time, and started their reconstruction.

And Brandons are usually remembered as Bradons. Except Bran, and Bran the Builder.

The greenseers saw the future, but the stories were retold as events of the past after a long time, while stories of the future may have been retold as stories that have come to pass.

[Hippocras]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The West is hers, and the Westermen have no problem with that. Some members of her family - Kevan, Genna, Jaime - did have concern with her serving as Queen Regent, but that's over now.

The very idea you propose - that Cersei first has to establish herself as Lady of Casterly Rock or that this was some kind of process where the opinions of other Lannisters or Westermen would even matter - is completely without basis.

In fact, there is even a good chance that in light of the fact how Cersei has been mistreated by the Faith and the Tyrells that the Westermen will be willing to go to great lengths to avenge Cersei's honor on her enemies ... even more so, if she returns to the Rock not just as a sorely beset and helpless widow, but as a former queen who saw her father and all her children being murdered by evil people.

People don't act out of pity in this story. She may be Lady of the Rock in name, but she has no power there. The same doubts that Kevan had are shared by much of the family. When she named Devan Warden she gave him power over the Rock.

There are titles, and there is authority. Until Cersei makes a power shifting move in KL, she has simply no authority to lead anyone, including in the Westerlands. They will not follow her. They were already stripping her of any authority before the Walk. Being a helpless widow does NOT get people to follow you. The Westerlands follow strength. If they did not, and it was all about honour and birthright for them, the Rains of Castamere would not be their representative song.

Cersei has no authority until she has her own Castamere moment and that will be in KL.