War of Five Kings: Valonqar Theory

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

The War of Five kings is more at a lull than a full stop.

Five kings Died and Five rose in their place, and each may potentially kill Cersei.

1. Robert is gored by a boar and is succeeded by Stannis, which is why he is the only survivor of the first round. Will execute her for her betrayal and incest.

2. Robb is betrayed and will be succeeded by Jon (or Bran/Rickon/Sansa). Ned, Red wedding, not friends of Lannisters.

3. Balon is assassinated and succeeded by Euron. Dastardly, greedy, unpredictable, and cruel. lots of ways this could go (probably straps her to a ship)

4. Joffrey is assassinated and succeeded by Tommen. Naive and young, could he be the champion of the faith making Cersei call off the dead mountain and surrender to her fate?

5. Renly is assassinated and succeeded (effectively) by Margaery. She has been waging her own sort of war all this time and may just take everything from her.

 

It could just as well be one of her brothers who does it, but in her paranoia, she did make more than a few enemies. Magic is a double edged sword, so maybe so is prophecy, and she is so focused on looking at the wrong thing, she can't see the actual threat.

[James West]

Tyrion is the Valonquar.  Cersei will defeat all of her enemies but at a big cost to her family.  All her children will die before Tyrion kills her. 

[dsjj251]

Jamie is technically a little brother as well.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

For Cersei the valonquar is definitely Jaime. It's another point of how spectacularly wrong Cersei is.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

The War of Five kings is more at a lull than a full stop.

Five kings Died and Five rose in their place, and each may potentially kill Cersei.

1. Robert is gored by a boar and is succeeded by Stannis, which is why he is the only survivor of the first round. Will execute her for her betrayal and incest.

2. Robb is betrayed and will be succeeded by Jon (or Bran/Rickon/Sansa). Ned, Red wedding, not friends of Lannisters.

3. Balon is assassinated and succeeded by Euron. Dastardly, greedy, unpredictable, and cruel. lots of ways this could go (probably straps her to a ship)

4. Joffrey is assassinated and succeeded by Tommen. Naive and young, could he be the champion of the faith making Cersei call off the dead mountain and surrender to her fate?

5. Renly is assassinated and succeeded (effectively) by Margaery. She has been waging her own sort of war all this time and may just take everything from her.

 

It could just as well be one of her brothers who does it, but in her paranoia, she did make more than a few enemies. Magic is a double edged sword, so maybe so is prophecy, and she is so focused on looking at the wrong thing, she can't see the actual threat.

Don't forget Aegon. He is the one poised to take KL right now, giving him first dibs on Cersei's head, and Tommen's.

[Egged]

Victarion is I think the most likely valonqar.

As for Jaime, Jaime has one hand, not "hands".

Euron's little brother, getting his revenge on Euron, "choking the life out of her" being the miscarriage of the child in her womb caused by being choked (but she herself doesn't die from it, Jaime probably saves her just in time). Euron said he wanted an heir worthy of the Iron Throne, and Cersei will dangle one for him like a carrot on a stick.

Quote

There is no wine so sweet as wine taken from a foe. One day I shall drink your wine, Crow's Eye, and take from you all that you hold dear.

Victarion already killed his own pregnant wife with his bare hands when Euron impregnated her.

This would likely happen as Daenerys' army, of which Victarion would be part of, sack King's Landing.

[Sir Tumbleweed]

@Lilac & Gooseberries  @dsjj251

All of Maggys prophecies are multiple part answers to the same question. The Valonquar prophecy is a direct answer to how many kids Robert and Cersei will have. She never changed the topic so by that logic the Valonquar makes the most sense to be either Tommen (I doubt it), or one of Roberts younger bastards. My money's on Edric Storm

[Jay21]

On 3/30/2021 at 6:11 AM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

For Cersei the valonquar is definitely Jaime. It's another point of how spectacularly wrong Cersei is.

He's certainly my favorite candidate at this point in the story.  I think it would be a little cheap if the little brother in question turned out to be someone outside of Cersei's immediate family. I like Tommen as a dark horse, but I sort of infer that Cersei will see him dead from the 'gold will be their shrouds' bit, but technically they can be buried in gold shrouds after Cersei's death and that wouldn't contradict what was said. It may also be a leap to infer that Cersei will outlive all her children.

[Egged]

Not Jaime.

Quote

Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

 

[Jay21]

1 minute ago, Egged said:

Not Jaime.

Quote

Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

 

Good point, but if he choses GRRM can write his way around that easily enough. Maybe Jamie's Hand of the King at the time and he strangles her with the chain Tyrion did Shae with, for example.  Maybe Jamie will be king and for whatever reason employ 2 Hands and he sends them to do his dirty work... who know? We'll have to wait and see I guess, but I don't think that line excludes the Kingslayer.

[Egged]

37 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

Good point, but if he choses GRRM can write his way around that easily enough. Maybe Jamie's Hand of the King at the time and he strangles her with the chain Tyrion did Shae with, for example.  Maybe Jamie will be king and for whatever reason employ 2 Hands and he sends them to do his dirty work... who know? We'll have to wait and see I guess, but I don't think that line excludes the Kingslayer.

Let's say it excludes Jaime wrapping his hands around Cersei's throat

[Jay21]

3 hours ago, Egged said:

Let's say it excludes Jaime wrapping his hands around Cersei's throat

I can't argue with that.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

@Sir Tumbleweed & @Jay21 I think that Cersei’s downfall is herself and her death will come from her other half. As @CamiloRP brilliantly said recently, there is a possibility of Cersei being the younger more beautiful Queen, which would lead to her causing her own downfall, something that has already started happening. Now about valonquar, Jaime and Cersei have already more than once being mentioned as one. What would be more thematically appropriate than her death to come from the closest thing to herself?

 

[Egged]

30 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

@Sir Tumbleweed & @Jay21 I think that Cersei’s downfall is herself and her death will come from her other half. As @CamiloRP brilliantly said recently, there is a possibility of Cersei being the younger more beautiful Queen, which would lead to her causing her own downfall, something that has already started happening. Now about valonquar, Jaime and Cersei have already more than once being mentioned as one. What would be more thematically appropriate than her death to come from the closest thing to herself?

 

Why would it be "thematically appropriate"? Jaime is not Cersei. Cersei's own downfall by Jaime choking her can't be blamed on Cersei unless we somehow think that being choked to death by Jaime would be deserved.

Can anyone explain how they imagine that Jaime would be so angry with her that he would choke her to death with his single hand (or indirectly through other people or some such), considering what we know of Jaime and his relation to Cersei? How does he get to that point emotionally?

[Alma11]

Maybe first, we should ask ourselves why Maggy used the word valonqar instead of little brother. Why use its old valyrian meaning instead of the one of the common tongue? And how well Maggy knows the old valyrian language to use it in her prophesy? I don't think she did just to had Cersei ask her septa. 

Maybe there's a connection with Valyria (or wherever old valyrian is spoken) and whoever is the valonqar. Maybe it's a Targaryen (male), maybe a Balckfire (male), maybe it's Euron because, if we have to believe him, he saw Valyria. And so on. 

What puzzles me it's the fact that this valonqar will kill her when she'll be more fragile. The prophesy says that after will come a younger, more beautiful queen (if it is a queen), who'll cast her down and take all that is important to Cersei (what is important to Cersei, exatly? Power? Beauty? Youth? Her children? Her House? Jaime?), and her children will die, the valonqar will wrap his hands around her throat. Now, since Cersei asked the queen's thing before the children's thing, it's not clear if this queen will come before, after or in the meanwhile death of all her children and even if she will have a hand in their deaths. But she will not be the cause of it, not directly (unless the valonqar will plan whit the more beautiful queen but seems unlikely).

And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

When your tears have drowned you, why use this expression? To emphasize what? It's logic she is sad, but drowned? What I modestly think, it's that Cersei will be so consumed by this grief, so desperate to have nothing, that she will go crazy, but not crazy like in GOT (not in the moment of her death, anyway), but like Lady Macbeth or Madame Bovary or Lady Lindon (Barry Lindon). And because of that, the valonqar could kill her:

1) because he takes pity on her and, seeing a mad woman, desperate, he decides to kill her

2) because, effectively, will be someone who'll hate her (long list)

But it could be also that the valonqar will not be a man? If these "hands that will choke her to death" would be a poison? Maybe she will kill herself after losing everything (and going mad with desperation). Honestly, I don’t know how to explain the use of the pronoun his indeed of its, I tried to find another example in the books, but I found nothing. So, or in this case GRRM use the rhetorical device of personification, or I'm wrong. 

In the end, those are just assumptions, nothing more. The truth is that I don't have answers, only questions and doubts. 

 

 

 

 

[Egged]

51 minutes ago, Alma11 said:

Maybe first, we should ask ourselves why Maggy used the word valonqar instead of little brother. Why use its old valyrian meaning instead of the one of the common tongue? And how well Maggy knows the old valyrian language to use it in her prophesy? I don't think she did just to had Cersei ask her septa. 

Maybe there's a connection with Valyria (or wherever old valyrian is spoken) and whoever is the valonqar. Maybe it's a Targaryen (male), maybe a Balckfire (male), maybe it's Euron because, if we have to believe him, he saw Valyria. And so on. 

What puzzles me it's the fact that this valonqar will kill her when she'll be more fragile. The prophesy says that after will come a younger, more beautiful queen (if it is a queen), who'll cast her down and take all that is important to Cersei (what is important to Cersei, exatly? Power? Beauty? Youth? Her children? Her House? Jaime?), and her children will die, the valonqar will wrap his hands around her throat. Now, since Cersei asked the queen's thing before the children's thing, it's not clear if this queen will come before, after or in the meanwhile death of all her children and even if she will have a hand in their deaths. But she will not be the cause of it, not directly (unless the valonqar will plan whit the more beautiful queen but seems unlikely).

And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

When your tears have drowned you, why use this expression? To emphasize what? It's logic she is sad, but drowned? What I modestly think, it's that Cersei will be so consumed by this grief, so desperate to have nothing, that she will go crazy, but not crazy like in GOT (not in the moment of her death, anyway), but like Lady Macbeth or Madame Bovary or Lady Lindon (Barry Lindon). And because of that, the valonqar could kill her:

1) because he takes pity on her and, seeing a mad woman, desperate, he decides to kill her

2) because, effectively, will be someone who'll hate her (long list)

But it could be also that the valonqar will not be a man? If these "hands that will choke her to death" would be a poison? Maybe she will kill herself after losing everything (and going mad with desperation). Honestly, I don’t know how to explain the use of the pronoun his indeed of its, I tried to find another example in the books, but I found nothing. So, or in this case GRRM use the rhetorical device of personification, or I'm wrong. 

In the end, those are just assumptions, nothing more. The truth is that I don't have answers, only questions and doubts. 

Tears drowning her is again a reference to Victarion (see my previous post). Drown, drowned god. Daenerys is winning outside burning everything, taking everything away from Cersei which she holds dear. Victarion is coming to her, Euron's little brother, to take everything away from Euron which he holds dear as he said he would, and now she knows; she knows he is the little brother, she knows she was wrong to believe it was Tyrion, she knows she was wrong to believe it would be Jaime, she's crying, and he wraps his hands about her throat and chokes her until the life inside her womb dies.

Maggy used the word valonqar so that she wouldn't ask "Which little brother?!". She says "his hands" after, so it was not to hide the gender. It was just to hide the meaning so that she couldn't ask the one person who knew who it was.

[Sir Tumbleweed]

Use of the word 'Valonquar' is because otherwise it wouldn't be a prophecy, it would be a clear statement. Say says Robert will have 16 children, and Cersei will have 3, and without hardly taking a breath she continues to say that the little brother will strangle Cersei.

 

@Lilac & Gooseberries Yeah I read about the younger queen being her. Totally cool with that interpretation. The Valonquar one is what I have a stronger opinion on. The valyrian word is just a distraction from her statement IMO.