How powerful are Dorne and House Martell?

[Alex13]

From what i could find, it is stated that Dorne can raise 50.000 troops, although that is considered to be an exaggeration made by Daeron I to enhance his victory; although Martin said that Dorne is equal in military strength to the North and the Vale. If yes, then how come Dorne sent (only) 10.000 troops under Lewyn Martel? And were the 10.000 troops raised only by House Martell and it's Immediate (geographically) vassals? Because if that is the case, then i can see how Dorne ca have equal military strength to the North and the Vale. But if the 10.000 troops are raised from multiple houses across Dorne, then the dornish are not as strong from a military point of view. I am asking because from what i can tell, the majority of big houses in Dorne, are situate in the western part of Dorne, close/closer to the borders and it would/should facilitate for an easier mustering of troops. Plus, although Dorne has a very large coastal area, they don't have a fleet. 

With regards to politics and House Martell, the current generation of Martell's seem to be politically isolated. Doran married a Norvosi woman out of love and Oberyn is not married and has sired multiple bastard children. Arianne is currently un-married because Doran wanted to marry her to Viserys and so far, there isn't any evidence of a marriage prospect for her. Quentyn which could have married one of Anders Yronwood's daughters has been sent to Meereen to win Dany's hand and he died trying to take one of her dragons. And Trystane is still young and currently not betrothed.

And from an economical point of view, they produce exotic products and spices, and they are also really close to cities in Essos, so they can more easily trade. Although Dorne doesn't have a city the size of Oldtown or White Harbor and they also don't seem to have a large, powerful trading fleet. 

[John Suburbs]

My guess is that they raised the minimum number of troops to prevent Aerys from killing Elia and the children, as well as Prince Lewyn. Even after the battle, Aerys thinks the Dornish betrayed him, and this was probably part of his thinking -- they sent too few troops.

In Doran's defense, of course, Dorne is largely a wasteland, difficult to draw levies from the western-most seats like Starfall and Sandstone. So the 10G was likely what he cobbled together on short notice, most likely from the houses on the route to King's Landing.

[Alex13]

34 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

My guess is that they raised the minimum number of troops to prevent Aerys from killing Elia and the children, as well as Prince Lewyn. Even after the battle, Aerys thinks the Dornish betrayed him, and this was probably part of his thinking -- they sent too few troops.

In Doran's defense, of course, Dorne is largely a wasteland, difficult to draw levies from the western-most seats like Starfall and Sandstone. So the 10G was likely what he cobbled together on short notice, most likely from the houses on the route to King's Landing.

But wouldn't Dorne and House Martell have a vested interest in sending more troops, to ensure that the loyalists have bigger chances of winning and that Elia and her children are safe?

And i misspoke in the posting. I meant to say that the majority of big houses in Dorne are situated in the western part of Dorne; houses such as Dayne, Uller, Qorgyle, Manwoody, Blackmont, Wyl and Yronwood. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

Yes, much of Dorne is effectively a wasteland, but you have the fertile greenbelt of Yronwood, where storms drop rain on their way north. I would assume much of the population is in that greenbelt.

26 minutes ago, Alex13 said:

But wouldn't Dorne and House Martell have a vested interest in sending more troops, to ensure that the loyalists have bigger chances of winning and that Elia and her children are safe?

 

I would think so. Doran wants to see his own blood sit the Iron Throne, I think. 

 

4 hours ago, Alex13 said:

Plus, although Dorne has a very large coastal area, they don't have a fleet. 

Dorne's coast has very few landings (because of whirlpools and stuff) which would explain the absence of a fleet: you don't have anywhere to put them.

[Darth Sidious]

Dorne has power right now because they’ve manage to stay out of the wot5k.  The kingdoms who are not exhausted will head towards conflict. I would not mind a war between Dorne and the Vale.  

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, Alex13 said:

But wouldn't Dorne and House Martell have a vested interest in sending more troops, to ensure that the loyalists have bigger chances of winning and that Elia and her children are safe?

And i misspoke in the posting. I meant to say that the majority of big houses in Dorne are situated in the western part of Dorne; houses such as Dayne, Uller, Qorgyle, Manwoody, Blackmont, Wyl and Yronwood. 

If GR isn't pulling our legs, then Dorne's strength is about equal to the Vale or the north, both of which are estimated anywhere from 25k to 45k. If it's the lower number (and this is more likely since Dorne is the least populous realm), then Doran sent nearly half his strength to the Trident, which more than likely represented levies from the houses on the way to King's Landing. Waiting to gather troops from the other houses (and yes, most of the large houses are to the west, across the desert) would take time, and Robert could strike for King's Landing at any moment. It's a wonder that he didn't considering it was a good nine or ten months since the wedding at Riverrun. 

If it's the higher number, then it was about a quarter of his strength, which would have seemed like enough at the time considering Rhaegar is also gathering men from the Reach, crownlands and loyalist houses in the Riverlands like Darry and Mooten. As it turned out, the loyalists did outnumber the rebels on the Trident, by about 5,000 troops.

But if Doran's troop levels are puzzling, what does this say about the fact that Rhaegar (apparently) left nearly half the kingsguard to babysit his girlfriend out in the middle of nowhere, at a place no one knows they are hiding. Just one of these men could have taken down Robert and made all the difference on the Trident.

[Jaenara Belarys]

He should've taken Dayne with him.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

As it turned out, the loyalists did outnumber the rebels on the Trident, by about 5,000 troops.

Numbers are a great advantage, but most of these troops are probably inexperienced, badly trained peasant levies. Whereas, the northerners and the riverlords and the Vale troops have probably had enough experience by that point in the rebellion. 

[frenin]

On 3/30/2021 at 6:05 PM, Alex13 said:

But wouldn't Dorne and House Martell have a vested interest in sending more troops, to ensure that the loyalists have bigger chances of winning and that Elia and her children are safe?

They sent a lot of troops tho. Just not all they could muster and i don't really think they believe the children at risk.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

from 25k to 45k. If it's the lower number (and this is more likely since Dorne is the least populous realm),

The North already mustered more than that three hundred years ago and the population has only increased ever since.

So it's unlikely to be the bigger number.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Just one of these men could have taken down Robert and made all the difference on the Trident.

Or not. Of all of them only Dayne is reliable enough, one know nothing about except he likes to brag a lot and the other is well past his prime.

Even if they were there nothing guarantees they are going to face any of the rebel leaders, none of the Kingsguard who were actually did and they were all taken out regardless.

And Rhaegar seemed sure he was going to win so it makes sense why he would tell them to stay.

[Loose Bolt]

I suspect that most soldiers of Dorne have lighter armor than their northern colleagues. After all wearing heavy armor would not be good idea in hot climate of Dorne. If that is true that would explain how Martells could call at arms so many men. Or most of their cavalry and infantrymen would be less armoured than warriors of other kingdoms and so more Dornish men could afford their necessary equipment.

That would effect how those troops fight. Or warriors of Martells would be more mobile than warriors of other houses and so they would be more effective as raiders or skirmishers than more heavily armoured troops. But they would have huge problems if they would try to engage with either heavy infantry or cavalry in close range and should be very careful when their enemies have either archers or crossbow men.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

I figured that the most imposing part to containing Dorne was its people. They have a  history of rebelling and would rise up whenever they were conquered. its not conquering Dorne that's the problem as much as it is holding it after. If they rebelled it wouldn't just be the noble houses to deal with, but also all the fiery common Dornishmen who may pump up the Dornish ranks.

[Lord Varys]

I like to reconcile the numbers given by Daeron I with the others by pointing out that the ratio of people a land can raise when defending itself against invaders is higher than the ratio they get when they raise an army to fight outside the country.

We do know the resistance against Daeron's tyranny was based mainly on the smallfolk, meaning people would have been willing to fight there who would not be conscripted in a regular war. After all, the regular Dornish army was defeated by Daeron I, and other people took over.

Not to mention that with more equality between the genders in Dorne there could have also been a considerable number of women involved in the fighting against Targaryen oppression.

We also do have talk about 30,000 Dornishmen fighting with the first Vulture King ... without there being many Dornish lords being involved in that campaign.

[Arthur Peres]

On 3/30/2021 at 1:05 PM, Alex13 said:

But wouldn't Dorne and House Martell have a vested interest in sending more troops, to ensure that the loyalists have bigger chances of winning and that Elia and her children are safe?

 

Not really.

Doran is too cautions and Rhaegar had insulted the Martells and Dorne with the whole Lyanna thing, Aerys made it worse when he used Elia as a hostage, and GRRM already confirmed that for those reasons Dorne did not gave the Targs they full support. Quotting GRRM:

But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution. Cersei's line reflects no more than a desire to wound, to say something nasty to get a rise out of Ned.

source: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

About the power of Dorne, they probably just as strong as the Vale or Westerlands. They resisted the other kingdoms by themselfs for a century after the unification.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He should've taken Dayne with him.

Numbers are a great advantage, but most of these troops are probably inexperienced, badly trained peasant levies. Whereas, the northerners and the riverlords and the Vale troops have probably had enough experience by that point in the rebellion. 

That was the rebel's advantage, more battle-hardened troops. That and I think they had more heavy horse.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, frenin said:

The North already mustered more than that three hundred years ago and the population has only increased ever since.

So it's unlikely to be the bigger number.

 

Or not. Of all of them only Dayne is reliable enough, one know nothing about except he likes to brag a lot and the other is well past his prime.

Even if they were there nothing guarantees they are going to face any of the rebel leaders, none of the Kingsguard who were actually did and they were all taken out regardless.

And Rhaegar seemed sure he was going to win so it makes sense why he would tell them to stay.

The World Book has the north with 30,000 when Torrhen kneeled. But I doubt they can do as many as 40k now. If this is equal to what Dorne can muster, then Doran would not be overly worried about maintaining the secret of not having 50k. He's pretty close. The only way this makes sense is if Dorne can do 25k, 30k tops. And even that might be a stretch.

Really? Hightower and Whent are nobodies? If they were designated as Rhaegar's personal guard while Selmy, Darry and Martell led the divisions, then Robert would have had to fight through both of them to get to Rhaegar. And he had quite a time just taking down Rhaegar, who was no slouch with a lance either. And Hightower probably would have given Rhaegar some sage advice too, like don't put a river at your back when you head into battle.

No, it didn't make sense for them to stay. Nobody even knows Lyanna is there, so if Rhaegar is sure he's going to win on the Trident, what possible harm could come to her way out in the middle of nowhere deep in loyalist territory that she needs three of the most formidable knights in the kingdom to protect her? One of his "trusted companions" and a dozen guards should be enough to run off any brigands that might happen by.

And I seriously doubt Rhaegar was sure he was going to win. He's telling Jaime that he will make changes when he returns, so of course he has to win for that to happen. He's not going to say, "after I die, changes will be made . . ."

[frenin]

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The World Book has the north with 30,000 when Torrhen kneeled. But I doubt they can do as many as 40k now.

It'd be counter intuitive if they couldn't. The population has done nothing but raise ever since.

 

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If this is equal to what Dorne can muster, then Doran would not be overly worried about maintaining the secret of not having 50k. He's pretty close. The only way this makes sense is if Dorne can do 25k, 30k tops. And even that might be a stretch

We know for a fact it isn't. In the 2nd Dornish war, the first vulture King was able to raise 30k troops without no serious commitment from the most powerful Dornish Houses.

And this was a generation after the 1st Dornish War which saw the Dornish having massive losing in manpower.

 

19 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Hightower and Whent are nobodies?

We know nothing about the latter and about the former we kept hearing he was past his prime.

 

21 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If they were designated as Rhaegar's personal guard while Selmy, Darry and Martell led the divisions, then Robert would have had to fight through both of them to get to Rhaegar.

Or not. Since we don't even know that Darrry or Selmy were leading much. They could've been just as dead by the time Robert or whomever got to him.

 

27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And he had quite a time just taking down Rhaegar, who was no slouch with a lance either.

Lance??

 

28 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And Hightower probably would have given Rhaegar some sage advice too, like don't put a river at your back when you head into battle.

Did he need Hightower to tell him that?? I'm pretty sure there were vets with him.

 

Quote

Nobody even knows Lyanna is there,

Some certainly did. Ned didn't find the place by accident.

 

34 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

what possible harm could come to her way out in the middle of nowhere deep in loyalist territory that she needs three of the most formidable knights in the kingdom to protect her? 

Well, people getting wind about her location and wanting to get her.

Cannot be more specific we don't know much of the context.

 

36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

He's telling Jaime that he will make changes when he returns, so of course he has to win for that to happen. He's not going to say, "after I die, changes will be made . . ."

So, he's sure he will win. He can say, if i come back, changes will be made.

The very fact that he knows he will return means that the outcome of the battle is very clear in his mind.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

That was the rebel's advantage, more battle-hardened troops. That and I think they had more heavy horse.

I think the loyalists will have more heavy horse, since they have the Reach.

[John Suburbs]

On 4/1/2021 at 11:47 AM, frenin said:

It'd be counter intuitive if they couldn't. The population has done nothing but raise ever since.

 

We know for a fact it isn't. In the 2nd Dornish war, the first vulture King was able to raise 30k troops without no serious commitment from the most powerful Dornish Houses.

And this was a generation after the 1st Dornish War which saw the Dornish having massive losing in manpower.

 

We know nothing about the latter and about the former we kept hearing he was past his prime.

 

Or not. Since we don't even know that Darrry or Selmy were leading much. They could've been just as dead by the time Robert or whomever got to him.

 

Lance??

 

Did he need Hightower to tell him that?? I'm pretty sure there were vets with him.

 

Some certainly did. Ned didn't find the place by accident.

 

Well, people getting wind about her location and wanting to get her.

Cannot be more specific we don't know much of the context.

 

So, he's sure he will win. He can say, if i come back, changes will be made.

The very fact that he knows he will return means that the outcome of the battle is very clear in his mind.

I think I'm agreeing with you, but I can't really tell. Dorne cannot raise 50k, and Doran wouldn't be fretting over this unless the actual number was significantly lower. So I put it at 30k tops. If this is roughly equal to what the north and the Vale can raise, then this would put the north at the same level it had 300 years ago. So either Torrhen Stark had a bumper crop of soldiers that year, or the north's population has not expanded all that much over the years. But there's no real way to be sure I guess.

Whent and Hightower are both on the KG and Jaime, Ned and others have great respect for them. I think it's safe to assume that they are no slouches in battle.

Yes, there is no reason to think Robert defeated either Selmy or Darry, which suggests they were not protecting Rhaegar but out on the battlefield, most likely leading the center and left wings because Martell had the right and these are the only three notable knights in Rhaegar's army.

Yes, lance. Rhaegar was an excellent jouster, having toppled Selmy, Dayne, Steffon Baratheon and other notables. Jousting is done on horseback with a lance. At the Trident, it is more than likely that they would have come at each other with lances first, then drawn sword and mace when those broke.

Well, for whatever reason, Rhaegar crossed the Trident so that the river was at his back. If his vets tried to dissuade him from this they were ignored. It would be hard to ignore Gerold Hightower.

Yes, and how do you suppose Ned found this out if only Rhaegar and the three KG are aware of Lyanna's location? Who else would he have told, and why? And she is still deep in loyalist territory in absolutely no danger, save for maybe a passing gang of brigands. So why the heavy guard?

Who is "getting wind of her location" and how? Why would anyone know that she is in this bleak tower out in the middle of nowhere. It anything, the KG presence there would be what tipped people off that this was her location. That's probably how Ned tracked her down. Three KG doing nothing out in the sticks while the realm is at war and the ruling family is being killed is highly suspicious, no?

Nobody leads a host to war thinking there is no hope and that they are going to die. Nobody promises to make changes only after they die in battle. He doesn't know he will return. He is reassuring Jaime that he will and will make things right. There is nothing else he can do in that conversation. This is hardly a sign of delusion on Rhaegar's part.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

On 4/1/2021 at 12:57 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

I think the loyalists will have more heavy horse, since they have the Reach.

I'll have to see if I can find it. Maybe it was the loyalists who had the heavy horse.

But I don't think the Reach contributed much to the Trident. Mostly likely the remnants of the Battle of the Bells that Selmy gathered up. Otherwise, there would be no reason to highlight Dorne's 10,000 while lumping the entire Reach in with relatively minor houses from the riverlands and crownlands.

[Jaenara Belarys]

I came up with that assessment from just logic, just telling you, not information. I know that the Reach has the highest population in all seven or eight provinces, has quite a few noble houses, which means light horse, heavy horse, infantry, archers etc. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

But I don't think the Reach contributed much to the Trident. Mostly likely the remnants of the Battle of the Bells that Selmy gathered up

 I agree, the Reach probably didn't, because they were occupied with the siege of Storm's End. But the fact that the Reach can marshal multiple, massive armies just illustrates that Mace Tyrell is a fool. He should've split his forces, kept the Redwyne galleys there, but send off half his army to put down the rebels using whatever force needed.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Actually, he doesn't need half his forces there if he's just doing a siege. He only needs about 1/8-1/4 of his total army.