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Can "Grand" Theories (Heresy, etc.) Be Defined as Simple Propositions?


Mister Smikes

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12 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'd rather this not turn into an argument thread (though of course, I cannot prevent it).

Maybe instead, I would be curious to know who you think the descendant(s) of Dunk are.

My own list is:  (1) Ser Bonifer Hasty; (2) Rhaegar Targaryen; (3) the boy we know as Jon Snow; (4) the girl we know as Danaerys Targaryen; and (5) the boy we know as Quentyn "Frog" Martell.

Genuine question - is there any evidence that Duncan has descendants at all? I feel like I'm missing something (which is more than likely).

I understand that if he does have descendants some readers would want them to be named characters of some significance. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, I'm personally not a fan of the 'secret relative' trope as it tends to make worlds feel smaller and sort of promotes an outdated view of special bloodlines.

If Dunk did have descendants, then statistically speaking they are likely to be unnamed individuals of little note, maybe an ordinary sellsword or a merchant or a septa for example?

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13 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Genuine question - is there any evidence that Duncan has descendants at all? I feel like I'm missing something (which is more than likely).

Yes.  In Nov. 2000, GRRM was asked by a fan if we hat met any descendants of Dunk in ASOIAF.  GRRM said yes.  At this point, the first 3 books of the series had been released.

Later, after the release of FEAST, GRRM was again asked about Dunk's descendant, and he dodged the question, but said he had left a pretty big clue in FEAST.

It was at one time reported that GRRM had said there were 4 descendants of Dunk running around,   But it seems impossible to track this rumour to its source.

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7 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Yes.  In Nov. 2000, GRRM was asked by a fan if we hat met any descendants of Dunk in ASOIAF.  GRRM said yes.  At this point, the first 3 books of the series had been released.

Later, after the release of FEAST, GRRM was again asked about Dunk's descendant, and he dodged the question, but said he had left a pretty big clue in FEAST.

It was at one time reported that GRRM had said there were 4 descendants of Dunk running around,   But it seems impossible to track this rumour to its source.

Brienne is widely believed to be a descendant of Dunk.  In Feast she mentions seeing a shield that apparently matches Dunk's.  Her size is another good indication.  I'm not aware of any others.  Megorova's suggestions above appear highly unlikely. 

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Brienne is widely believed to be a descendant of Dunk.  In Feast she mentions seeing a shield that apparently matches Dunk's.  Her size is another good indication.  I'm not aware of any others.  

Scenario 1:  Dunk is screwing the wife of the Lord of Tarth.   The Lord of Tarth comes home early.   Dunk flees and leaves his shield behind.  The Lord of Tarth says "What's this shield doing here?" and orders a servant to put it back in the armory.  THEREFORE:  This clue points to Brienne being a a Descendant of Dunk.

Scenario 2:  A descendant of Dunk fights for the Targs during Robert's Rebellion.   The Lord of Tarth and his troops fight for the Usurper.  The descendant of Dunk is defeated and stripped of his arms and armor.  The descendant of Dunk is thrown in the river and wakes up naked on the Quiet Isle.   His looted arms and armor end up in the Armory of the Lord of Tarth.  THEREFORE: This clue points to the Elder Brother being a descendant of Dunk.

Both scenarios above assume Dunk's shield in Lord Tarth's armory is the big clue GRRM had in mind.  But it could have been something else.  What about the very-tall and very-talented tournament knight who was rumoured to have had a traumatic experience and near brush with death at around the same time as the Summerhall Tragedy?

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@Mister Smikes

Scenario 3: Alysanne Stark/Old Nan gave birth to Dunk's twin-children, a boy and a girl. The boy stayed with Nan at Winterfell, and eventually died during Robert's Rebellion, Hodor is this guy's grandson. The girl and her half-sister, Nan's other daughter fathered by Nan's husband, eventually married and moved out of Winterfell and out of The North. Dunk's daughter had at least two daughters, one of them married with the Clegane, who was a squire of Tytos Lannister, and had with him two sons - Gregor and Sandor; Dunk's second granddaughter married with a member of House Cafferen, and their daughter was Meris Cafferen (Wenda the White Fawn), who then married with Selwyn Tarth.

Dunk's parents are Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen.

In House Tarth someone recently married with a Targaryen. <- I don't remember what's the source of this information, it was either in the World Book or in one of GRRM's SSM at the Citadel.

Edit: here's that info - https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brienne_of_Tarth/Theories

In my opinion that someone is Selwyn, and that "Targaryen" is Meris, who is Daenerys Targaryen's great-great granddaughter. That shield belonged to Meris. Both Selwyn and Brienne are unaware that Meris is Duncan the Tall's descendant. Selwyn doesn't know that that shield belonged to Duncan the Tall.

How did that shield ended up in Meris' posessions? ->

Either Dunk left his shield at Winterfell

(when he left there pregnant Nan, he left the shield for her, and years later she gave it to her daughter who was departing from Winterfell. That daughter kept that shield and later passed it to one of her own daughters and then to Meris.)

or years later one of Dunk's children or grandchildren found him, when he already became a Kingsguard, so he couldn't have done anything for him/her and thus he gave to his descendant the only thing that he had left from his previous life, from the time prior he joined the Kingsguard - his shield. And that child or grandchild kept that shield and passed it to his own descendant.

Or something like that.

Meris left her shield at the Tarth armory, when she departed from Westeros and migrated to Essos. Selwyn lied to everyone that his wife died.

Brienne had three siblings - brother Galladon and two sisters Arianne and Alysanne. This Alysanne possibly was named by her mother after her own great-grandmother - Alysanne Stark/Old Nan.

Though there's one thing unclear about Brienne's family - did Selwyn Tarth had only one wife, or several? Did all four of his children were born by the same woman, or by different?

From Brienne's thoughts about her childhood, it is known that her father took a new mistress every year. Thus, there's a possibility that besides Brienne, Selwyn's other children are bastards that were born by his mistresses. Or there's a possibility that Galladon was born by Selwyn's first wife, who died in childbirth, then Selwyn married again, with Meris Cafferen, then Meris gave birth to twin-girls, Arianne and Alysanne, who then died in the cradle, and later Meris gave birth to Brienne, and shortly after her birth left Selwyn and went to Essos.

Or could be that Meris was one of Selwyn's mistresses, and that Selwyn's three daughters were her bastards, and out of the three of them two died and Brienne was later legitimized, though originally she was a bastard because her parents weren't married.

There's many possible options, because we don't know who was Brienne's mother, whether she and Selwyn were married, and if they were whether she was Selwyn's only wife, or his second, or even third, or whether she was a mistress, while only Galladon's mother was Selwyn's wife (who died in childbirth).

So there's that.

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On 4/3/2021 at 5:30 AM, Megorova said:

. The proof is in the last chapter of F&B, The Lysene Spring.

2. Larra, Viserys and Gaemon Palehair. In shadow-glamour.

3. Blood magic.

1. I've read that chapter over and found nothing to support your theories. 

2. Explain a bit more, please. Are you saying that Viserys is Aegon or something like that? Gaemon died from ToL, so.......

3. This one's a little bit more plausible, but aside from stuff related to Larra's religions, we never know if she was a sorceress of some sort. 

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19 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

1. I've read that chapter over and found nothing to support your theories. 

2. Explain a bit more, please. Are you saying that Viserys is Aegon or something like that? Gaemon died from ToL, so.......

1. Then read again. Because it is there. The clues. There are a lot of them. A LOT. And they are not even subtle.

Like - "In The Testimony of Mushroom, the fool says plainly what few dared say at the time: that there must surely have been another conspirator, lord and master of the rest, the man who set all this in motion from afar, using the others as his catspaws. The “player in the shadows,” Mushroom calls him. “Graceford was cruel but not clever, Long had courage but no cunning, Risley was a sot, Bernard a pious fool, the Thumb a bloody Volantene, worse than the Lyseni. The women were women, and the Kingsguard were used to obeying commands, not giving them. ...

Drazenko perished first, choking to death upon a piece of bacon. Lysandro drowned when his opulent barge sank whilst carrying him from his Perfumed Garden back to his palace. Though a few would insist that their deaths were unfortunate accidents, many more took the manner and timing of their passings as proof of a plot to bring down House Rogare. The Faceless Men of Braavos were widely believed to have been responsible for the killings; no more subtle assassins were known to exist anywhere in the wide world.

But if indeed the Faceless Men had done these deeds, at whose bidding had they acted?"

That "player in the shadows" was Johanna Swann, Larra's mother. She robbed Rogare Bank and used their gold to hire Faceless Men. The mother and daughter launched simultaneous attacks on Rogares both at Lys and at the 7K to bring down House Rogare. Because both Johanna and Larra were Lysandro Rogare's prisoners, and to get out from under his control they conspired to kill him and other Rogares. Out of Lysandro's children only Larra was Johanna's child, the other 8 and 16 bastards were born by Lysandro's other wives and concubines. People in Essos practice polygamous marriages, a man there is allowed to have more than one wife. Examples - Aenar the Exile, Dothraki Khals, Cleon the Great, etc.

2. Viserys and Larra conspired with Gaemon Palehair to kill Aegon. Both Viserys and Gaemon had a grudge against Aegon. Enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Aegon abandoned Viserys, who then was seized by pirates, and furthermore, when they got reunited, Aegon forced Viserys to sent his dragon egg away to Dragonstone. Aegon managed to escape from the pirates and later became a King, all thanks to his dragon (if Viserys had a dragon and Aegon didn't, then Viserys could have escaped from the pirates, and then after Aegon II's death, him, not Aegon III, would have became the King of the 7K. Aegon, having a dragon, and Viserys, not having a dragon, was all the difference that made one of them the King and the other was this close -.- to being sold to a pillow house as a pleasure slave and for his body to be used there for sex by rich, fat, ugly, old men). And by separating Viserys from his dragon egg, Aegon made sure that Viserys won't ever have a dragon, because without a dragonseed nearby, the egg won't hatch. Aegon abandoned his little brother to save his own skin, and then he also additionally spited Viserys by denying him his right to have his own dragon. So Viserys hated Aegon, and because of his wife's influence decided to kill Aegon and take his Throne.

Gaemon was Aegon II's bastard (or at least that's what the boy believed). Aegon II was poisoned by someone at the Targaryen court, and the person who benefited the most out his death was his nephew, Aegon III, who then became a King. Also don't forget that Gaemon's mother, Essie, was tortured and then hanged by Aegon III's people, and Gaemon was seized and then became Aegon's food taster and a whipping boy. Think about what it means -> if someone will want to poison Aegon, then Gaemon will be the one who will die instead of him. You think Gaemon gave his consent to become Aegon's food taster and to die for him? I think not. Also, whenever Aegon misbehaved or did something wrong, Gaemon was beaten by Gareth Long. So, even though Gaemon and Aegon on the surface appeared to be friends, deep down Gaemon H.A.T.E.D Aegon. So it wasn't hard for Larra and Viserys to convince him to participate in their plan to kill Aegon. They convinced Gaemon that his father got killed by Aegon III, poisoned on his command. Thus - an eye for an eye - you poisoned my father, I will poison you. Something like that.

To understand what GRRM wrote, you need to "read between the lines" a lot.

Aegon died from ToL and then his body was shadow-glamoured to look like Gaemon's corpse. Larra created "Aegon-shadow-costume" that was then in turns worn by her, Gaemon and Viserys.

Gaemon poisoned Aegon and the Queen

Or maybe at that dinner Gaemon was actually Larra in shadow-glamour. So Aegon was possibly poisoned by Larra, who was staying close to make a fast replacement as soon as the poison will start working. Then somewhere between dinner and after-dinner Aegon felt ill, lost consciousness (permanently), and was shadow-glamoured by Larra to look like Gaemon, and then still looking like that, he died. Then Larra wore "Aegon-shadow-costume" and was in Aegon's room when the real Aegon was dying there looking like Gaemon.

Or maybe Gaemon was Gaemon. In this case sometime after dinner Gaemon pretended that he's ill. Aegon summoned a maester. Aegon's servants that were with him in that room, left to fetch a maester. When Aegon was in his room without other attendants, only with Gaemon, who pretended that he is not well, he got seized by Larra or by Larra and Sandoq the Shadow. Either way something was done to him and he lost consciousness. Before the maester arrived there, Aegon (unconscious) was shadow-glamoured to look like Gaemon. When the maester came into Aegon's room, Aegon there was not Aegon, the real Aegon was looking like Gaemon. So then the real Aegon died, Aegon-Larra or Aegon-Gaemon then was joined by Viserys, and together they went to stay that night at the Queen's bed. If she died, then they would have also replaced her with someone. Though it seems that she survived.

The exact details are irrelevants. Aegon died and was replaced by a shadow-imposter.

Starting from the Secret Siege, who was who:

Spoiler

Larra - "But when Ser Amaury Peake approached Maegor’s Holdfast with a dozen men-at-arms, he found Viserys Targaryen himself upon the drawbridge, a battleaxe in hand. ... At that moment Aegon III himself stepped from the holdfast gate to stand beside his brother. “I am the king,” His Grace reminded them, “and I never chose Ser Marston for my Hand.”

Aegon’s intervention took Ser Amaury aback...

“This is on your head, ser,” Prince Viserys warned. He drove his axe deep into the wood of the drawbridge, scampered back, and said, “Go no farther than the axe, or you will die.” The king took him by the shoulder and drew him back into the safety of the holdfast, and a shadow stepped onto the drawbridge.

Sandoq the Shadow had come from Lys with Lady Larra..."

Larra - "King Aegon was unmoved. “Sandoq is no beast,” he answered from the battlements. “He cannot speak, but he hears and he obeys. ...  "

Possibly Sandoq, who was mute - "On the fourth day Grand Maester Munkun appeared together with Ser Marston. “I beseech you, sire, end this childish folly and come out, that we may serve you.” King Aegon gazed down on him, saying naught...

In the days that followed, Munkun made several further appeals, assuring Aegon and Viserys that all that had been done was lawful, Ser Marston went from pleas to threats to bargaining, and Septon Bernard was brought forth to pray loudly for the Crone to light the king’s way back to wisdom, all to no avail. These efforts drew little or no response from the boy king beyond a sullen stubborn silence."

Gaemon - "His Grace was roused to anger only once, when his master-at-arms, Ser Gareth Long, took his turn attempting to convince the king to yield. “And if I will not, who will you punish, ser?” King Aegon shouted down at him. “You may beat poor Gaemon’s bones, but you will get no more blood from him.”"

Larra - "The confession left King Aegon III bereft of speech. All that the boy could do was stand and stare, with such despair upon his face that Mushroom feared His Grace might be about to leap from the battlements onto the spikes below, to rejoin his first queen.

It fell to Prince Viserys to make answer. “And my wife, Lady Larra,” he shouted down, “was she a part of this plot too, my lord?” Lord Rowan gave a heavy nod. “She was,” he said. “And what of me?” asked the prince. “Aye, you as well,” his lordship answered dully…an answer that seemed to surprise Marston Waters, whilst greatly displeasing Lord George Graceford. “And Gaemon Palehair, ’twas he who put the poison in the tart, I’ll venture,” Viserys went on glibly. “If it please my prince,” mumbled Thaddeus Rowan. Whereupon the prince turned to the king his brother and said, “Gaemon was as guilty as the rest of us…of nothing,” and the dwarf Mushroom called down, “Lord Rowan, was it you who poisoned King Viserys?” To which the old Hand nodded, saying, “It was, my lord. I do confess it.”

The king’s face grew hard. “Ser Marston,” he said, “this man is my Hand and innocent of treason. The traitors here are those who tortured him to bring forth this false confession. Seize the Lord Confessor, if you love your king…else I will know that you are as false as he is.” His words rang across the inner ward, and in that moment, the broken boy Aegon III seemed every inch a king."

"There beneath the shadow of the empty Iron Throne (for King Aegon did not choose to come to court), the lords attempted to choose new regents to rule until His Grace could come of age."

Gaemon - "And so it was done. All that remained was for Aegon III to put his seal to it, which he did without demur the next morning before retreating once again to the solitary splendor of his chambers. ... The trials lasted three-and-thirty days. Prince Viserys was present throughout, often accompanied by his wife, the Lady Larra, her belly swelling with their second child, and their son Aegon with his wet nurse. King Aegon came but thrice, on the days that judgment was pronounced upon Gareth Long, George Graceford, and Septon Bernard; he showed no interest in the rest, and never asked about their fates. "

Larra or Viserys - "A few matters were still under discussion when King Aegon’s nameday dawned at last. A great feast was to be held that night in the throne room, and the ancient Guild of Alchemists had promised displays of pyromancy such as the realm had never seen.

It was still morning, though, when King Aegon entered the council chambers where Lord Torrhen and the regents were debating whether or not to include Tumbleton on the progress.

Four knights of the Kingsguard accompanied the young king to the council chambers. So did Sandoq the Shadow, veiled and silent, carrying his great sword. His ominous presence cast a pall in the room. For a moment even Torrhen Manderly lost his tongue.

“Lord Manderly,” King Aegon said, in the sudden stillness, “pray tell me how old I am, if you would be so good.”

“You are ten-and-six today, Your Grace,” Lord Manderly replied. “A man grown. It is time for you to take the governance of the Seven Kingdoms into your own hands.”

“I shall,” King Aegon said. “You are sitting in my chair.”"

For the rest you'll have to wait until June, because I won't post any of my threads until I will complete compiling all parts of my "grand theory", and there are 16 separate threads in it. One of them explains principles on which my theories are based, what "codes" GRRM is using in his books and how did I "deciphered" his writing; next one is about Johanna Swann (what is her role in the bigger picture and how did I connected her to Rogares and Aegon III's death), then next is about Larra/Serenei of Lys, then about her daughter Shiera Seastar, then about the real cause of the First Blackfyre Rebellion, other threads about who is Varys, who is fAegon, who is Melisandre, who is the Perfumed Seneschal, who is Petyr Baelish, why Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, etc., and all of that is interconnected. And to understand it, you'll have to read all 16 threads from the beginning. Because even though in this post I provided some evidences/clues about what was actually happening, readers still won't get it, unless everything will be explained to them from the beginning. Thus - wait. Or don't. I at least won't make you wait for 10+ years, like GRRM with TWOW's release ^_^

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On 4/10/2021 at 9:10 AM, Megorova said:

Gaemon was Aegon II's bastard (or at least that's what the boy believed). Aegon II was poisoned by someone at the Targaryen court, and the person who benefited the most out his death was his nephew, Aegon III

Gaemon was just some Lyseni sailor's kid. It came out, so I think that Gaemon knew.

On 4/10/2021 at 9:10 AM, Megorova said:

That "player in the shadows" was Johanna Swann, Larra's mother. She robbed Rogare Bank and used their gold to hire Faceless Men. The mother and daughter launched simultaneous attacks on Rogares both at Lys and at the 7K to bring down House Rogare. Because both Johanna and Larra were Lysandro Rogare's prisoners, and to get out from under his control they conspired to kill him and other Rogares. Out of Lysandro's children only Larra was Johanna's child, the other 8 and 16 bastards were born by Lysandro's other wives and concubines.

If the "player in the shadows" was Lady Swann, then why did most of the people involved have connections to the Peakes rather than House Rogare? They didn't like the Lyseni, and they might look down on Johanna for being gone from the 7k for a long time. Also, we don't ever know anything about who Larra's mom was.

On 4/10/2021 at 9:10 AM, Megorova said:

And by separating Viserys from his dragon egg, Aegon made sure that Viserys won't ever have a dragon, because without a dragonseed nearby, the egg won't hatch

Viserys had his egg for 12 years.  It could've hatched then.

 

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1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Gaemon was just some Lyseni sailor's kid. It came out, so I think that Gaemon knew.

I mean, there is a chance Gaemon Palehair was really the sln of Aegon II. Tough that doesn't mean you should accept Megorova's ideas without raising a question.

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2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I mean, there is a chance Gaemon Palehair was really the sln of Aegon II. Tough that doesn't mean you should accept Megorova's ideas without raising a question.

Gaemon's mom confessed that the real father was Lyseni, not Aegon. Though confessions derived from torture cannot always be relied upon, FaB basically states that Gaemon is Lyseni, end of story. And, yes, I will not accept it if it has no evidence besides just saying that Gaemon is Aegon's son over and over.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Already Gaemon (G+aemon) is a Targaryen name.
When was he named like that? 
Is it after his birth? If so by whom? Why does essie a low dornian whore who got knocked up by a lysian rower give a targaryen name to her son, when she has no link with them. 

We know that Aegon II was a very promuscuity person and sired several bastards.
The fact that this cruel and vindictive person could spare the boy's life and even take him as a ward.
This may suggest that Aegon believed or at least suspected that Gaemon is his son.

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2 hours ago, Hug-hammer said:

Already Gaemon (G+aemon) is a Targaryen name.
When was he named like that? 
Is it after his birth? If so by whom? Why does essie a low dornian whore who got knocked up by a lysian rower give a targaryen name to her son, when she has no link with them. 

We know that Aegon II was a very promuscuity person and sired several bastards.
The fact that this cruel and vindictive person could spare the boy's life and even take him as a ward.
This may suggest that Aegon believed or at least suspected that Gaemon is his son.

Chances are pretty good that Gaemon was his son. I mean, we can only guess how many, but people like Daemon, Aegon II, Aegon IV, Daeron (son of Maekar) and some Targaryens (most probably Aerion) before the Conquest likely left behind a lot of bastards around themselves. And I mean a lot.

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