House Targaryen on Dragonstone

[Floki of the Ironborn]

There's always been something about the history of House Targaryen which never sat right with me. We're told that they moved to Dragonstone twelve years before the Doom, and then spent most of the Century of Blood just chilling on Dragonstone until Aegon decided to conquer Westeros. 

Is it just me, or is that really vague and inconsistent? We hear about one of the Targaryens being called Gaemon the Glorious, for one thing, but what exactly did he do to be called Glorious? It's not like he ever did any conquests like Aegon did, and as far as we know, he didn't do any conquering out east either. And how glorious can you be ruling one island in the Narrow Sea? Yes, the bar for good Targaryen rulers isn't high, but still, Gaemon is such a non-entity that his nickname is literally the only thing we know about him. Usually a nickname like that is earned.

But it goes beyond Gaemon. House Targaryen somehow managed to have a completely isolated existence on Dragonstone despite the fact that they had five dragons, and four of them died of old age! More dragons died of old age on Dragonstone than in all the subsequent years of Targaryen kingship combined! I find it really hard to believe that Aegon was the first of his family to look west and think 'Say, why don't we carve out some more land for ourselves?' It doesn't seem like they even did diplomacy of any sort with the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms.

And for that matter, the Seven Kingdoms would have been falling over one another in an effort to get DRAGONS on their side in their endless warring. House Targaryen should have been swamped with marriage offers, threats of attack, pilgrims and tourists coming from all over just to see these powerful creatures in person, even plots to either steal or kill the dragons to avoid them falling into the wrong hands. Before the Targaryens kept maesters on the island, why wasn't there some sort of holy war declared against them by the Andals? We know that many religious Westerosi despise foreigners and also consider the dragons to be abominations, just look at the Dance for ONE example of that. So how is it that a hundred years passed by before the Targaryens and the rest of Westeros ever even interacted with each other? 

[Ran]

It's noted that prior to Aegon, the Targaryens looked east, not west, which rather implies they did in fact meddle in the events of the Century of Blood. Even Aegon did, before he turned his attention to Westeros.

It seems natural to assume that the early days of Aenar and his descendants were involved with making sure to have alliances and so so on with some of the coastal lords around Blackwater, for their security and for trade purposes. It's noted that houses like the Masseys and Bar Emmons were more affiliated with the Targaryens despite being nominally vassals of the Durrandons, to take one example.

So, we just haven't learned the details of it, presumably because the actual results weren't that significant for the key point that GRRM's narrative cares about, namely the Conquest which kicks off F&B.

[Lord Varys]

As Ran said, there is no chance they just sat there and did nothing during the Century of Blood. In fact, if I had to guess then some (although not all) of the dragons Aenar brought with him from Valyria died (with their riders) in the early battles of the Century of Blood rather than of old age.

The Targaryens wouldn't magically have acquired the power to control the trade in the Narrow Sea which they eventually did, with their dragons and the Velaryon ships. Before the Doom, the Freehold would have guarded their interests in that region jealously, and after the Doom everybody tried to grab as much as they could, including, one assumes, the Targaryens.

We would have to imagine the era of Gaemon the Glorious as an era of Targaryen expansionism ... but most east, not west. The Targaryens were the last dragonlords left, so Gaemon could have dreamed nearly as big as the Volantenes did, trying to create a small dragonlord-run empire in the Narrow Sea and eastern Essos, clashing with various Free Cities in the process of that ... especially Pentos, who is the closest, but also Myr and Braavos and Tyrosh.

Westeros would be largely out of such calculations, one imagines, as a savage backwater continent, with the exception of the big islands close by. Tarth and Estermont should have been battlegrounds in the Century of Blood, not just for the Targaryens (although I could see Gaemon's conquering and ruling both places for a time) but the Free Cities trying to control the Narrow Sea, too. The Targaryens could also have tried to establish themselves on the Stepstones to exert further control on the trade in the region.

The Westerosi themselves might be interested in the dragonlords in their neighborhood - the Hightowers and Redwyne would have established trading relations one imagines (Aegon and Visenya visiting the Arbor in their youth indicates that their ancestors established at least profitable business relations), the the big place they must have tried to establish good relations with would have been the Darklyn of Duskendale, the largest Westerosi port in their vicinity. I imagine if there was a marriage alliance between the Targaryens and a Westerosi house before the Doom then it would have been one of the early lords marrying a spare daughter or sister or cousin to a Lord of Duskendale to establish a lasting business partnership.

They would have also tried to establish good trading relations with Gulltown.

But you have to keep in mind that the Doom and the reign of the early Targaryens on Dragonstone coincides with the Ironborn conquest of the Riverlands and the subsequent weakening of the Durrandon rule. Storm's End would have mostly looked west, not east, and the Hoares would also have been more focused on their grand building project as well as keeping the peace in the Riverlands than threatening Dragonstone.

This would mean that trying to take on the dragonlords of Dragonstone wouldn't exactly be high on the priority list of the kings closest to the island ... with the possible exception of the Arryns, who were technically safe in the Vale (but perhaps already realizing that the Eyrie wasn't safe from a dragon attack).

Be that as it may, we must assume that the Durrandons around the time of the arrival of Aenar must have taken some interest in the Targaryens, possibly offering marriage alliances or other rapproachments simply because of the advantage a dragonlord on your side could give a Storm King in a war with the Reach or Dorne or the Ironborn.

There are all kind of scenarios imaginable why something like that did not work out - Aenar and his children may not have even bothered learning the Common Tongue - and that may have not changed for their children and grandchildren. The Targaryens could have viewed those Westerosi people as complete savages, unworthy of attention or support. Even more so, in light of the traditional incest marriage, which should have been the norm during the Dragonstone days ... with a few exceptions for spare daughters and younger sons, of course.

Or one could imagine that there was a Targaryen Storm Queen for a couple of years, but she didn't have a dragon, and failed to produce children, etc.

And it should be very easy for the Targaryens - living on an island - to be very isolationist and to prevent 'tourists' from Westeros or Essos gaping at their dragons.

50 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And for that matter, the Seven Kingdoms would have been falling over one another in an effort to get DRAGONS on their side in their endless warring. House Targaryen should have been swamped with marriage offers, threats of attack, pilgrims and tourists coming from all over just to see these powerful creatures in person, even plots to either steal or kill the dragons to avoid them falling into the wrong hands. Before the Targaryens kept maesters on the island, why wasn't there some sort of holy war declared against them by the Andals? We know that many religious Westerosi despise foreigners and also consider the dragons to be abominations, just look at the Dance for ONE example of that. So how is it that a hundred years passed by before the Targaryens and the rest of Westeros ever even interacted with each other? 

What exactly created the shift that caused the Targaryens to look west instead of east is, perhaps, the most interesting aspect of the story. I don't think the Doom caused them end to view themselves as Valyrian, and to follow Valyrian culture and customs - rather it should have strengthened their Valyrian identity in light of the fact they were the last dragonlords left, a very endangered species, so to speak.

I'd imagine that the conversion to the Faith - which we could possibly imagine along the lines of how Melisandre took over the court of Dragonstone with the help of Selyse - would be the first step in that direction, and I imagine that started with the generation of Aegon's (great-)grandparents. I'd imagine that there was a pious precursor to Baelor the Blessed among the Lords of Dragonstone. The man who ensured that the Targaryens broke with the Valyrian religion, slavery, and a number of other practices (while keeping the traditional incest) and adopted the Westerosi values. This must have been a very crucial moment in their history, considering the Lord of Dragonstone who first espoused the Seven would have been the guy commanding that the ships which brought Aenar and his people to Dragonstone be demolished (and this doesn't have to have been done by Aenar and his son or grandchildren, because ships can be in use for decades or longer) and the wood from those ships be used to create the images of the Seven Stannis later burned. That's something that involves real devotion on the part of whoever commanded it.

With those would also come interest in the Common Tongue (necessary to read the holy books in the original) and Westerosi political structures - feudalism, the interpretation/creation of the Dragonstonian domains as a 'lordship' in the Westerosi sense (originally it would have been a lordship in the sense that it was the private property of a Valyrian dragonlord which, one assumes, is a different legal construct than a Westerosi lordship), with the Targaryens modelling themselves more after the Westerosi kings and princes.

Aegon and his sisters are raised in an environment where Dragonstone is clearly almost completely 'andalized', aside from the fact that they do the incest and they don't have a banner yet, they are pretty much Westerosi. They employ and create knights, have maesters since the days of Aegon's grandfather Daemion, their native language already seems to be the Common Tongue, etc.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

It seems natural to assume that the early days of Aenar and his descendants were involved with making sure to have alliances and so so on with some of the coastal lords around Blackwater, for their security and for trade purposes. It's noted that houses like the Masseys and Bar Emmons were more affiliated with the Targaryens despite being nominally vassals of the Durrandons, to take one example.

For what it's worth, the Masseys being closer to the Targaryens than the Durrandons at the time of the Conquest can be explained by the fact that the marriage between Aethan Velaryon and Alarra Massey was likely already made or at least arranged before the Conquest. The second Daemon Velaryon cannot have been born after 2 AC, or else he would have been still around for Corlys and Rhaenys' wedding in 90 AC. And since we know Corlys was a lord before his wedding, we can also give him a couple of years as a lordly bachelor, meaning Daemon II may have been born during or even before the Conquest.

But I'd also assume that Alarra Massey had some Targaryen (or Velaryon or Celtigar) ancestors, simply because it would make sense that Aegon's ancestors had a vital interest in binding the folks living closest to their island to them to ensure nobody would try to make trouble. Aethan and Alarra wouldn't be the first such marriage since Aenar's days.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

So, we just haven't learned the details of it, presumably because the actual results weren't that significant for the key point that GRRM's narrative cares about, namely the Conquest which kicks off F&B.

How little George seems to care so far about dealing with that part of the history can be drawn from the Harwyn Hoare section of TWoIaF. His adventures and exploits - as well as those of his son and grandson - take place during the era in which the Targaryens ruled Dragonstone, but there is no mentioning of that, despite the fact that the Riverlands which Harwyn conquered are rather close to the island and despite the fact that Harwyn actually did fight aborad in very interesting places ... but apparently never served as a sellsail to Lord Aenar or something like that.

As things stand, the Doom may not have even happened when Harwyn had adventures on the Stepstones. If you ever get around to do a second enlarged edition of TWoIaF ask George to shed a little light on that era.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

9 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

There's always been something about the history of House Targaryen which never sat right with me. We're told that they moved to Dragonstone twelve years before the Doom, and then spent most of the Century of Blood just chilling on Dragonstone until Aegon decided to conquer Westeros. 

They were doing what lords do.  They had the Celtigars and the Velaryons to serve them.  They were collecting toll, I believe, from passing ships.

9 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Is it just me, or is that really vague and inconsistent? We hear about one of the Targaryens being called Gaemon the Glorious, for one thing, but what exactly did he do to be called Glorious? It's not like he ever did any conquests like Aegon did, and as far as we know, he didn't do any conquering out east either. And how glorious can you be ruling one island in the Narrow Sea? Yes, the bar for good Targaryen rulers isn't high, but still, Gaemon is such a non-entity that his nickname is literally the only thing we know about him. Usually a nickname like that is earned.

The Targaryens are the best rulers the Seven Kingdoms ever had.  Bring up the Baratheons and the Lannisters when you talk about having a low bar. 

Gaemon was almost certainly a dragon rider.  That alone is enough to make him Glorious. 

9 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

But it goes beyond Gaemon. House Targaryen somehow managed to have a completely isolated existence on Dragonstone despite the fact that they had five dragons, and four of them died of old age! More dragons died of old age on Dragonstone than in all the subsequent years of Targaryen kingship combined! I find it really hard to believe that Aegon was the first of his family to look west and think 'Say, why don't we carve out some more land for ourselves?' It doesn't seem like they even did diplomacy of any sort with the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms.

A noble family of Westeros may think that way, but House Targaryen is less obsessed with power.  They are the only family who could be trusted to have access to dragons.  Just imagine if Theon Stark had had a dragon.  He would have destroyed the Andals and really anybody who wasn't a fan of the Starks.  And Robb Stark probably would have leveled King's Landing and Casterly Rock if he had a dragon.  Given their power, the Targaryens conducted themselves with admirable restraint.

9 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And for that matter, the Seven Kingdoms would have been falling over one another in an effort to get DRAGONS on their side in their endless warring. House Targaryen should have been swamped with marriage offers, threats of attack, pilgrims and tourists coming from all over just to see these powerful creatures in person, even plots to either steal or kill the dragons to avoid them falling into the wrong hands. Before the Targaryens kept maesters on the island, why wasn't there some sort of holy war declared against them by the Andals? We know that many religious Westerosi despise foreigners and also consider the dragons to be abominations, just look at the Dance for ONE example of that. So how is it that a hundred years passed by before the Targaryens and the rest of Westeros ever even interacted with each other? 

Why would any family from Westeros attack the Targaryens?  They were accorded almost god-like status.  And who is to say that those who had the means didn't make a polite request for an invitation to visit the island and see the magnificent dragons with their own eyes.  The Targaryens visited the mainland with their dragons and were treated with great honor. 

[Daeron the Daring]

19 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

A noble family of Westeros may think that way, but House Targaryen is less obsessed with power

Agreed, but getting to the Targaryens, we can only tell that Aegon himself wasn't conquering Westeros outside ambition or seeking power. He had a dream, as we are told. Later Targaryens weren't like Aegon regarding this (we have several examples for such individuals), the earlier ones might have been, tho. We are told they eventually were involved in Essosi wars, and Lord Aerion had an intention of carving out a kingdom for himself in Essos. But these plans and intentions had a long run, long enough to fade away, thanks to Aegon.

[SeanF]

It's easy to forget how large Dragonstone is.  It's about the size of the Isle of Man.  Driftmark is the size of Gotland.  Taking into account the other smaller islands, and their dependencies on the mainland, the Targaryens were already ruling a fair sized realm, even before the conquest, probably as large as the Kingdom of Man and the Isles in the 11th and 12th centuries.  Sitting aside important trade routes, their lordship was probably quite heavily populated, so it would not be unusual for one of their leaders to acquire the nickname "glorious".  

As to the rest, they probably still looked more East than West, considering Westeros to be relatively backward by comparison.  

[Pontius Pilate]

I do not recall reading of a Targaryen conquest during that period of time.  They were relatively quiet until they built Westeros.  The story just doesn't need for them to be busy with war at the time.  Is it really hard to believe that this family would busy themselves in the accumulation of wealth?  Most families can't get enough wealth. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

There were likely marriage offers but the number of available Targaryens to marry off were always low. The Targaryens were comfortable on Dragonstone. The island geography suited the needs of their dragons.  They had little motivation to expand their holdings.  It isn't hard to see why they kept to themselves.  

[Egged]

It's easy to fly over with a dragon, but bringing your whole kingdom is another story. Sea-faring cross-continental empires really only emerged or lasted in our history when the technology advanced enough to favor it.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Aenar and Daenys could have had knowledge that are now lost.  Westeros was the continent for the non-human species of the planet.  The Valyrians respected the boundary during their time.  That the other families have already violated the boundary is important.  The Targaryens became more Westerosi in terms of culture by the time the three Targaryens began the conquest.  They wanted to protect the people of Westeros, who violated the boundary, from the Others.