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Egged

Do people forget that Daenerys heard Rhaegar say that Aegon is the Prince who was promised?

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Posted (edited)

I see a lot of people immediately assume that Daenerys will be all angry at Aegon and what not and want him dead.

But do people forget this?

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"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."

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Ser Jorah frowned.

Dany could not let it go. "His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I'm certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings."

Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"

She nodded. "There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon."

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

"I remember," Dany said sadly. "They murdered Rhaegar's daughter as well, the little princess. Rhaenys, she was named, like Aegon's sister. There was no Visenya, but he said the dragon has three heads. What is the song of ice and fire?"

"It's no song I've ever heard."

She is the ONE person in the world who is in a position to support Aegon above all others: she believes she saw her brother Rhaegar literally prophesize that he would be KING, and he looked to Daenerys and said "There must be one more, the dragon has three heads."

In this vision and her very clear memory of it, Rhaegar bestows Aegon AND Daenerys as part of the dragon.

Aegon is currently on a path to fall for Arianne. Daenerys on the other hand wouldn't want him dead, she would want him to know that he is "The prince that was promised" and that together they are the dragon. She isn't going to want to kill him. And people could claim that he must surely be a Blackfyre, they have nothing to prove it, while she has the vision of her brother.

Obviously, later on she may come to realize that Jon is TPTWP and that the Song of Ice and Fire was is, as it would make it more obvious due to his lineage. But until then, she has very personal reasons to believe Aegon is NOT someone that must die, in fact she must help him, they belong together, as she saw Rhaegar claim in her vision. She wouldn't be angry at him for marrying Arianne for example, she would just want to tell him what SHE knows, to bring him on the right path, to fulfill the prophecy Rhaegar saw.

Edited by Egged

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Yeah, it's possible. I like to theorize from the point of conflict though because that's what authors are always thinking about and what makes plots work. Maybe she tries to convince him to join her, but he doesn't want to and would rather challenge her.

Or she could come to believe he's not really Aegon and that the baby was in fact killed. She may think "slayer of lies" applies at this point.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, it's possible. I like to theorize from the point of conflict though because that's what authors are always thinking about and what makes plots work. Maybe she tries to convince him to join her, but he doesn't want to and would rather challenge her.

Or she could come to believe he's not really Aegon and that the baby was in fact killed. She may think "slayer of lies" applies at this point.

Imagine if Bran reveals to her Jon's supposed true heritage. Just Bran saying so wouldn't be enough, since she didn't get a vision of Rhaegar with Lyanna. She could totally see Bran as the mummer and Jon his "dragon", especially if by then there are indications Bran does have super powers and is in a position to "mummer" people. He's a skinchanger too, which can be seen as mummery too. Bran and his creepy powers, a liar, a mummer, and his mummer's dragon?

Edited by Egged

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Her vision and its prophesy refer to the real Aegon, not the fake Aegon.

Young Griff is fake.  And Dany is the "Slayer of Lies".  

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2 hours ago, Egged said:

In this vision and her very clear memory of it, Rhaegar bestows Aegon AND Daenerys as part of the dragon.

Yes, Rhaegar did seem to be looking at Dany when he said 'there must be one more".

However, Rhaegar's idea seemed to be that the 3 heads of the dragon would be his own 3 children.   He had already named his first two children after the original Aegon and one of his two sisters.    Hence, once it became clear that Elia could have no more children, he decided it was his holy mission to find teenagers to fool around with.  This was the nonsense that got 2 Starks burned alive and provoked Robert's Rebellion.

Of course, we can resolve this conflict by invoking R+L=D or R+A=D.

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17 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Her vision and its prophesy refer to the real Aegon, not the fake Aegon.

Young Griff is fake.  And Dany is the "Slayer of Lies".  

And the real Aegon is dead.  Besides, Rhaegar was wrong about a lot of things.  Daenerys is the Prince who was Promised.  Aemon came to that realization near the end of his life. 

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Dany has just as much reason to be suspicious of fAegon as she does to rejoice at his existence. In fact, with Tyrion whispering in her ear, she might be more inclined to assume the worst, given the mummers dragon warning.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

And the real Aegon is dead. 

Is he? 

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Besides, Rhaegar was wrong about a lot of things. 

When the series ends, we'll be in a better position to assess what Rhaegar was or was not wrong about.

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Daenerys is the Prince who was Promised.  Aemon came to that realization near the end of his life. 

When the series ends, we'll be in a better position to assess what Aemon was or was not wrong about.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Mister Smikes said:

Is he? 

When the series ends, we'll be in a better position to assess what Rhaegar was or was not wrong about.

When the series ends, we'll be in a better position to assess what Aemon was or was not wrong about.

Tell that to the OP.  I trust Aemon.  George has said this of him, that he is very knowledgeable. 

Edited by James Fenimore Cooper XXII

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1 minute ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Tell that to the OP.

I agree with the OP that prophesies and visions are evidence, that we ignore at our peril.   In well-written fantasy stories, prophesies may be misinterpreted and treacherous, but they are rarely entirely false.   It is fair to suspect them of being tricky, but to dismiss them as simply "wrong" strikes me as unsatisfying.

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2 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Is he? 

When the series ends, we'll be in a better position to assess what Rhaegar was or was not wrong about.

When the series ends, we'll be in a better position to assess what Aemon was or was not wrong about.

Well, since the series won't be finished, we'll be arguing about this for a long while. But yeah, Rheagar seems to have a spotty track record, since he at first thought he was the chosen one of prophesy, then it was his son, Aegon. Measter Aemon seems to believe the prophesy refers to Dany, and he comes to that conclusion with years of knowlege of how tricky prophesies are, so he's not as arrogant in this regard as Rheagar.

And yeah, I think Aegon is probably dead, and either Dany or Jon is the person mentioned in the prophesy.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Her vision and its prophesy refer to the real Aegon, not the fake Aegon.

Young Griff is fake.  And Dany is the "Slayer of Lies".  

That is according to you the reader, not how she sees it, which is the whole point of the OP. Also, Bran + Jon could eventually be seen as a mummer and his mummer's dragon way more than Aegon.

52 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Yes, Rhaegar did seem to be looking at Dany when he said 'there must be one more".

However, Rhaegar's idea seemed to be that the 3 heads of the dragon would be his own 3 children.   He had already named his first two children after the original Aegon and one of his two sisters.    Hence, once it became clear that Elia could have no more children, he decided it was his holy mission to find teenagers to fool around with.  This was the nonsense that got 2 Starks burned alive and provoked Robert's Rebellion.

Of course, we can resolve this conflict by invoking R+L=D or R+A=D.

Whatever Rhaegar might have believed, the point is what Daenerys believes as a result of the vision she has seen.

35 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

And the real Aegon is dead.  Besides, Rhaegar was wrong about a lot of things.  Daenerys is the Prince who was Promised.  Aemon came to that realization near the end of his life. 

Not relevant from the point of view of Daenerys, only from the reader's point of view, and nothing is certain on top of that to begin with.

If Daenerys ever finds out there is a Song of Ice & Fire, she would likely believe the vision was very true, and that Aegon is TPTWP and they together are the two other heads of the dragon, that they must unite as Rhaegar expected or wanted.

Edited by Egged

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1 hour ago, Egged said:

Imagine if Bran reveals to her Jon's supposed true heritage. Just Bran saying so wouldn't be enough, since she didn't get a vision of Rhaegar with Lyanna. She could totally see Bran as the mummer and Jon his "dragon", especially if by then there are indications Bran does have super powers and is in a position to "mummer" people. He's a skinchanger too, which can be seen as mummery too. Bran and his creepy powers, a liar, a mummer, and his mummer's dragon?

Yeah I mean Dany gunning for the Starks is really likely for this reason. Also, she needs to get stuff wrong in her interpretations, like thinking someone is a threat when they're not, and vice versa. Imagine if she figures out all these cryptic warnings and prophecies and while every other character is floundering. It just sounds like the most Mary Sue choice an author could make. Same goes for Aemon and Rhaegar with the House itself. Like only Targaryens guess correctly? What?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

But yeah, Rheagar seems to have a spotty track record, since he at first thought he was the chosen one of prophesy,

Rhaegar thought he united the lines of Aerys and Rhaella.  

Then (perhaps) he realized this was not true, thanks to good old Bonifer Hasty.  Perhaps he also realized that Aerys and Rhaella were themselves too inbred to achieve TPTWP by their own direct unions.

Then he set out to unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella by seeking out daughters of nobles whose wives Aerys had fooled around with.

Or maybe I'm wrong about this.  But this is the sort of thing that suggests that prophesies are tricky, rather than merely dismissing them as wrong.

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then it was his son, Aegon.

Yeah, but like I said, that has not been proved wrong yet.

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Measter Aemon seems to believe the prophesy refers to Dany,

Aemon does not directly prophesy.  He argues from the evidence.   He thought it was Rhaegar because he was born amid salt and fire.  Rhaegar believed this too when young, but changed his mind when older.  Aemon failed to consider that "prince" was a gender-neutral term in Valyrian.  Now he is considering it, and is considering a female candidate.  He thinks that the hatching of the dragons proves that Dany is the one.

So basically, he reminds us of the "salt and smoke" criteria, and tells us not to rule out female candidates.  But since the story is far from over yet, we should be wary that we have been presented with the correct solution.

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And yeah, I think Aegon is probably dead, and either Dany or Jon is the person mentioned in the prophesy.

I'm inclined to disagree.  A fake Aegon subplot should also have a real Aegon.   Else, the real/fake distinction is rather less striking or relevant.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Does this really seem like a series of books about a chosen one. 

I don't know.  I do, however, think that nihilism is boring.  GRRM says he likes to surprise his readers, and I guess we're all free to try to guess how he intends to surprise us.

GRRM has gone out of his way to warn us that prophesies are treacherous.  But I guess according to you, fans should simply assume that prophesies are irrelevant bunk and not waste any brain cells on them.

The whole point about a frog turning into a prince is that it subverts expectations.  A story about a frog who remains a frog does not really subvert anything.  It's just a frog that stays a frog.

Will GRRM really spend the final 2 volumes preaching that there are no True Knights, that Virtue is an Illusion, and that Might Makes Right?  Or will he surprise us by having a True Knight or a Promised Prince come from where we least expect them?  I don't know, but is is hard to have striking contrasts when everything is all one muddy shade of grey.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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2 hours ago, Egged said:

Imagine if Bran reveals to her Jon's supposed true heritage. Just Bran saying so wouldn't be enough, since she didn't get a vision of Rhaegar with Lyanna. She could totally see Bran as the mummer and Jon his "dragon", especially if by then there are indications Bran does have super powers and is in a position to "mummer" people. He's a skinchanger too, which can be seen as mummery too. Bran and his creepy powers, a liar, a mummer, and his mummer's dragon?

The trouble with bringing Bran and Jon into the equation is that Bran has zero buildup as a mummer. Mummers are actors and entertainers, and Bran is never associated with them in the text. Him suddenly being seen as a mummer out of nowhere doesn't strike me as being George's style. On the other hand, we know that Varys has a history with mummers, utilizes the sorts of skills associated with mummery, and is manipulating events to help fAegon rise to power. It is much more likely that Varys is the mummer and fAegon the dragon.

I also suspect that, once Dany and Tyrion meet and Tyrion is in a position to influence her thinking, he will waste zero time setteing Dany against Aegon.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

The trouble with bringing Bran and Jon into the equation is that Bran has zero buildup as a mummer. Mummers are actors and entertainers, and Bran is never associated with them in the text. Him suddenly being seen as a mummer out of nowhere doesn't strike me as being George's style. On the other hand, we know that Varys has a history with mummers, utilizes the sorts of skills associated with mummery, and is manipulating events to help fAegon rise to power. It is much more likely that Varys is the mummer and fAegon the dragon.

I also suspect that, once Dany and Tyrion meet and Tyrion is in a position to influence her thinking, he will waste zero time setteing Dany against Aegon.

Sure, Bran isn't seen as a mummer yet, but fans have seen him a potential one for years https://i.imgur.com/27Bm9MJ.jpg

If you assume that Daenerys is truly a slayer of lies, then it's just a matter of whether or not she will see Bran as a manipulator, and if he is pushing for dragon-Jon, that can become a bit obvious to her. And Quaithe doesn't sound like she would be on Bran's side.

No doubt Varys+Aegon is the obvious mummer and his dragon, but like I said in the OP Daenerys would have her reasons to WANT that to not be the case. If Aegon and Varys and Jon and Bran are at some point all together with Daenerys, she would be in a very difficult position. Who is the liar? Who can she trust?

Edited by Egged

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9 minutes ago, Egged said:

Sure, Bran isn't seen as a mummer yet, but fans have seen him a potential one for years https://i.imgur.com/27Bm9MJ.jpg

If you assume that Daenerys is truly a slayer of lies, then it's just a matter of whether or not she will see Bran as a manipulator, and if he is pushing for dragon-Jon, that can become a bit obvious to her. And Quaithe doesn't sound like she would be on Bran's side.

No doubt Varys+Aegon is the obvious mummer and his dragon, but like I said in the OP Daenerys would have her reasons to WANT that to not be the case. If Aegon and Varys and Jon and Bran are at some point all together with Daenerys, she would be in a very difficult position. Who is the liar? Who can she trust?

But that's so many ifs! If Bran becomes seen as a mummer. If Dany meets Bran. If Young Griff, Varys, Dany, Bran and Jon all meet up together. If Dany chooses to believe Young Griff's story over Jon's. The last time we heard from Dany, she was having diarrhea, hallucinating about dead people and confronting a whole Khalasar. We have no idea what she'll be like in Winds, or how she will want to see anything, or what she will choose to believe. 

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4 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

But that's so many ifs! If Bran becomes seen as a mummer. If Dany meets Bran. If Young Griff, Varys, Dany, Bran and Jon all meet up together. If Dany chooses to believe Young Griff's story over Jon's. The last time we heard from Dany, she was having diarrhea, hallucinating about dead people and confronting a whole Khalasar. We have no idea what she'll be like in Winds, or how she will want to see anything, or what she will choose to believe. 

Can't discount the prophecy as pushing her to see Aegon in good light.

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