Do people forget that Daenerys heard Rhaegar say that Aegon is the Prince who was promised?

[Hug-hammer]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Yeah, but if Aerys did that to Joanna, why didn't she tell Tywin or at least take moon tea?

Joanna is a staunch pro-Lannister and an extremely ambitious woman.

It's not for nothing that Tywin is in love with her and takes her advice.

I don't see what they have to gain by having the bastard from Aerys.

Except to humiliate Tywin even more, so house Lannister.

Aerys himself sees Tyrion as a punishment from Tywin's gods for his arrogance.

So even if he is Tyrion's father, he doesn't know it.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I think the setup for the way things will go down in Meereen points to the battle happening BEFORE Dany arrives with the Dothraki.

Of course, Vaes Dothraki is very far away and Dany won't magically overtake the Dothraki in a paragraph. I don't even think she will be in a rush to return there because she made a very deliberate decision to not go back there in her last chapter. She might eventually return there, of course, but it might not be her first priority after she is the new leader of the Dothraki for a number of reasons.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Tyrion is busy getting influence with various sellswords, maybe even more than one company, and will convince them to change sides. Barristan will lead a sortie we know, and when that happens Tyrion will be ready to do his part to disable the trebuchets and release key hostages. I would say saving Daario would be a strong move, giving him something to trade to gain a place at the table in Dany's absence. After the battle he will help deal effectively with the problem of Victarion (yes, he is a problem). I don't know if Barristan will die in battle, but if he does not, I think Barristan knows enough of Tyrion's capacity to rule to respect it and get help from him. 

Of course, Tyrion will get some sort of important place with Dany's people at Meereen. Although he must become a dragonrider for that, too. Barristan is not going to include him without that. And Dany's people would not like the Second Sons after what Brown Ben pulled earlier. Switching back into team Dany is going to save their necks, but any sane person would keep them at arm's length after that because they cannot be trusted. Even less so, in fact, if they work with the likes of Tyrion Lannister - who is a kinslayer and kingslayer from a family of kingslayers.

If Barristan died right now, Dany's entire movement would crumble and by the time she showed up her dragons would be gone. Tyrion couldn't keep such a diverse group together.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

So Dany may not have much initial reason to trust Tyrion if they met right now, but if she comes back to a city where a battle was won and the insurgency has been tamed, all with significant help from Tyrion, she will have grounds to hear him out I would say.

Oh, many folks might listen to what Tyrion has to say. But a seat at the table of the inncer circle, a voice with the people who call the shots? Not very likely. Tyrion might be treated like Quentyn was, perhaps even more contemptuously. They might summon him to tell that what he knew about Westeros and his family and stuff. And then they would dismiss him while they grown-ups continued the talk.

On his own, Tyrion has nothing to offer. Nothing at all. He cannot fight and he has black reputation. Dany and her people could become hated in Westeros simply for associating with a man like him. His reputation is as bad as Jaime's ever was, possibly worse, since people believe he did not only kill his king and nephew but his father as well.

And to show his qualities Tyrion has to be given a chance to do something. He needs access to the Meereenese to figure out the plots against Daenerys, etc. For that somebody has to trust him. And that somebody must be Barristan Selmy. Nobody else could.

3 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Yeah, but if Aerys did that to Joanna, why didn't she tell Tywin or at least take moon tea?

She may not have wanted to drink it for this or that reason ... for instance, that she slept with both Tywin and Aerys during her stay in KL, and they wanted another child. But actually, I think the fact that she didn't could indicate that she wasn't raped by Aerys.

I also expect that Tywin very much knows that Aerys was Tyrion's true father - that would be the reason why he treated him as badly as he did. He raised him as a Lannister because he was Joanna's son and he very much loved her (and it may have been her last wish that he did this, very much like Lya begged Ned) but he cannot suffer the thought that this bastard becomes Lord of Casterly Rock.

I also expect this whole Aerys-Joanna thing to figure into Tywin's weirdo sex game with Shae. There is something we don't yet know about this, and I think the reason why he fucked her in the night before Tyrion's execution is that he wanted to get even with Aerys in his mind ... something along the lines of 'You fucked my woman, now a I fuck the woman your shitty bastard loved before I finally get rid of him for good'.

[Jaenara Belarys]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, Vaes Dothraki is very far away and Dany won't magically overtake the Dothraki in a paragraph. I don't even think she will be in a rush to return there because she made a very deliberate decision to not go back there in her last chapter. She might eventually return there, of course, but it might not be her first priority after she is the new leader of the Dothraki for a number of reasons.

 

I wonder how the Dothraki will react to some lady with a dragon......

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, many folks might listen to what Tyrion has to say. But a seat at the table of the inncer circle, a voice with the people who call the shots? Not very likely. Tyrion might be treated like Quentyn was, perhaps even more contemptuously. They might summon him to tell that what he knew about Westeros and his family and stuff. And then they would dismiss him while they grown-ups continued the talk.

 

I agree. But they would be foolish to assume that Tyrion's completely useless.

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I also expect that Tywin very much knows that Aerys was Tyrion's true father - that would be the reason why he treated him as badly as he did. He raised him as a Lannister because he was Joanna's son and he very much loved her (and it may have been her last wish that he did this, very much like Lya begged Ned) but he cannot suffer the thought that this bastard becomes Lord of Casterly Rock.

 

That might explain why Tywin said "you are no son of mine". 

 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I also expect this whole Aerys-Joanna thing to figure into Tywin's weirdo sex game with Shae. There is something we don't yet know about this, and I think the reason why he fucked her in the night before Tyrion's execution is that he wanted to get even with Aerys in his mind ... something along the lines of 'You fucked my woman, now a I fuck the woman your shitty bastard loved before I finally get rid of him for good'.

What's with people? The man is dead for chrissake, Lord Tywin.

[divica]

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, Vaes Dothraki is very far away and Dany won't magically overtake the Dothraki in a paragraph. I don't even think she will be in a rush to return there because she made a very deliberate decision to not go back there in her last chapter. She might eventually return there, of course, but it might not be her first priority after she is the new leader of the Dothraki for a number of reasons.

You should not see too much tv shows. If there is a culture that will opose danny every step of the way are the dothraki. I am not saying she won t get her following, but she won t be the new khal drogo for several reasons. 

And unfortunately I agree that her adventure with the dothraki will take quite quite a while if she really goes to Vaes Dothraki. To me it is one the the least interesting arcs for the new book. Been there, done that and don t really want to do it again...

However, timewise she can't take too much time to return because there is a huge fleet coming to mereen. She has to return before that fleet that even victarion is afraid of.

18 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I wonder how the Dothraki will react to some lady with a dragon......

I think some of them will follow her because a dragon has a huge potential for war. Others will dismiss her because she is a woman, can't fight, is the widow of a khal, is against slavery and rape, wants to go to westeros. She is nearly everything that the dothraki dont  want in a leader lol.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

She may not have wanted to drink it for this or that reason ... for instance, that she slept with both Tywin and Aerys during her stay in KL, and they wanted another child. But actually, I think the fact that she didn't could indicate that she wasn't raped by Aerys.

I also expect that Tywin very much knows that Aerys was Tyrion's true father - that would be the reason why he treated him as badly as he did. He raised him as a Lannister because he was Joanna's son and he very much loved her (and it may have been her last wish that he did this, very much like Lya begged Ned) but he cannot suffer the thought that this bastard becomes Lord of Casterly Rock.

I also expect this whole Aerys-Joanna thing to figure into Tywin's weirdo sex game with Shae. There is something we don't yet know about this, and I think the reason why he fucked her in the night before Tyrion's execution is that he wanted to get even with Aerys in his mind ... something along the lines of 'You fucked my woman, now a I fuck the woman your shitty bastard loved before I finally get rid of him for good'.

Tyrion not being tywin's son would weaken his story. It would be much better for jaime and cersei to be aerys kids than tyrion. How beautiful is it that the son tywin hated to be his only son? And jaime and cersei fit the targ profile much better. One is insane and the other is great, incest and they are beautiful.

Then if tyrion wasn t his son tywin had thousands of ways to give him a great life without recognizing him as his son. And most of the hate tywin has for tyrion is because he remeber him of his own father if I am not mistaken. 

Another important fact is that in moqorro's vision involving dragons tyrion wasn t involved. He is just a little man with a very big shadow. Not a dragon himself.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, Tyrion will get some sort of important place with Dany's people at Meereen. Although he must become a dragonrider for that, too. Barristan is not going to include him without that. And Dany's people would not like the Second Sons after what Brown Ben pulled earlier. Switching back into team Dany is going to save their necks, but any sane person would keep them at arm's length after that because they cannot be trusted. Even less so, in fact, if they work with the likes of Tyrion Lannister - who is a kinslayer and kingslayer from a family of kingslayers.

If Barristan died right now, Dany's entire movement would crumble and by the time she showed up her dragons would be gone. Tyrion couldn't keep such a diverse group together

dragonrider lol.

Tyrion won t have much power within dany's circle while the lannisters are in power. Nobody would trust tyrion to plot agains his own family. However, when faegon wins KL it will be finaly time for tyrion to rise.

In the mean time he will build his base of power in danny's camp. He might advise and manipulate things behind the scenes but not much more until danny returns and the volanteene (?) attack.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

On his own, Tyrion has nothing to offer. Nothing at all. He cannot fight and he has black reputation. Dany and her people could become hated in Westeros simply for associating with a man like him. His reputation is as bad as Jaime's ever was, possibly worse, since people believe he did not only kill his king and nephew but his father as well.

And to show his qualities Tyrion has to be given a chance to do something. He needs access to the Meereenese to figure out the plots against Daenerys, etc. For that somebody has to trust him. And that somebody must be Barristan Selmy. Nobody else could.

Not true. Tyrion can gather information pretty easily about the plots going on around mereen. And when they go to westeros tyrion can offer the westerlands. Not only does he have knowlegde about the area and possible secret entrances to castles but he can offer his support to danny if she makes him warden of the west. Tyrion has a lot of value simply by being a lannister.

50 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

That might explain why Tywin said "you are no son of mine".

That was because tywin wanted to disown tyrion for being a drunk, whoremonger that would give him the humiliation of killing him while he defecates.

[Egged]

10 minutes ago, divica said:

You should not see too much tv shows. If there is a culture that will opose danny every step of the way are the dothraki. I am not saying she won t get her following, but she won t be the new khal drogo for several reasons. 

And unfortunately I agree that her adventure with the dothraki will take quite quite a while if she really goes to Vaes Dothraki. To me it is one the the least interesting arcs for the new book. Been there, done that and don t really want to do it again...

However, timewise she can't take too much time to return because there is a huge fleet coming to mereen. She has to return before that fleet that even victarion is afraid of.

I think some of them will follow her because a dragon has a huge potential for war. Others will dismiss her because she is a woman, can't fight, is the widow of a khal, is against slavery and rape, wants to go to westeros. She is nearly everything that the dothraki dont  want in a leader lol.

Tyrion not being tywin's son would weaken his story. It would be much better for jaime and cersei to be aerys kids than tyrion. How beautiful is it that the son tywin hated to be his only son? And jaime and cersei fit the targ profile much better. One is insane and the other is great, incest and they are beautiful.

Then if tyrion wasn t his son tywin had thousands of ways to give him a great life without recognizing him as his son. And most of the hate tywin has for tyrion is because he remeber him of his own father if I am not mistaken. 

Another important fact is that in moqorro's vision involving dragons tyrion wasn t involved. He is just a little man with a very big shadow. Not a dragon himself.

dragonrider lol.

Tyrion won t have much power within dany's circle while the lannisters are in power. Nobody would trust tyrion to plot agains his own family. However, when faegon wins KL it will be finaly time for tyrion to rise.

In the mean time he will build his base of power in danny's camp. He might advise and manipulate things behind the scenes but not much more until danny returns and the volanteene (?) attack.

Not true. Tyrion can gather information pretty easily about the plots going on around mereen. And when they go to westeros tyrion can offer the westerlands. Not only does he have knowlegde about the area and possible secret entrances to castles but he can offer his support to danny if she makes him warden of the west. Tyrion has a lot of value simply by being a lannister.

That was because tywin wanted to disown tyrion for being a drunk, whoremonger that would give him the humiliation of killing him while he defecates.

Dany would easily be Khal. Some Khal Bozo would try to ride Drogon and quickly die, and they would all shut up and follow her.

Once she is in Westeros, they will become a liability, especially after she imposes her rule. Either she sacrifices them as cannon fodder, or she conquers and hands over the lands to them, losing support from the locals in the process. Same issue with the Unsullied, but they have an expiration date at least. In a way, she would have to keep an endless cycle of conquest going if she doesn't want to turn against them all.

[Jaenara Belarys]

17 minutes ago, divica said:

I think some of them will follow her because a dragon has a huge potential for war. Others will dismiss her because she is a woman, can't fight, is the widow of a khal, is against slavery and rape, wants to go to westeros. She is nearly everything that the dothraki dont  want in a leader lol.

 

True.....

17 minutes ago, divica said:

That was because tywin wanted to disown tyrion for being a drunk, whoremonger that would give him the humiliation of killing him while he defecates.

OR (putting tinfoil hat on) it's because that is the truth?

 

2 minutes ago, Egged said:

Some Khal Bozo

One of the greatest Dothraki names ever. :) 

 

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Egged said:

Dany would easily be Khal. Some Khal Bozo would try to ride Drogon and quickly die, and they would all shut up and follow her.

Once she is in Westeros, they will become a liability, especially after she imposes her rule. Either she sacrifices them as cannon fodder, or she conquers and hands over the lands to them, losing support from the locals in the process. Same issue with the Unsullied, but they have an expiration date at least. In a way, she would have to keep an endless cycle of conquest going if she doesn't want to turn against them all.

She can be a khal. She can't be the khal of khals like drogo. All she stands for is just too against the dothraki culture to be able to get that many suporters.

And I think all dothriaki will be in deep shit when winter arrives. They have no idea how to live amidst all that cold.

8 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

OR (putting tinfoil hat on) it's because that is the truth?

But it is just ugly storytelling. Hell, do you really think tyrion would follow danny if he was a targ and dragon rider? He woudl either marry her or use his dragon for his own conquests and build his kingdom.

 

[Lord Varys]

56 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I wonder how the Dothraki will react to some lady with a dragon......

Her Dothraki reacted well to that. It transcended their culture. It will have an impact. But being a dragonlord isn't the same as being the Stallion Who Mounts the World. That's something bigger still. She will have to prove that somehow, most likely during some trial-by-ordeal conducted by the dosh khaleen.

56 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I agree. But they would be foolish to assume that Tyrion's completely useless.

He will only be useful if the folks in charge allow him to do something. On his own he might quickly be enslaved again.

7 minutes ago, divica said:

You should not see too much tv shows. If there is a culture that will opose danny every step of the way are the dothraki. I am not saying she won t get her following, but she won t be the new khal drogo for several reasons. 

She will be the Stallion Who Mounts the World. That's what this prophecy is in the story for. I didn't think that was the plot until the TV show. I thought she might just take Jhaqo's khalasar but it seems she is destined for much more.

It also fits very well together with the seeds George brought out in AGoT. Dany has to return to Vaes Dothrak. If George wanted to just throw some Dothraki at her he could have had khalasar just searching her out at Meereen. But that didn't happen.

And the Dothraki are also set up to suck up to dragonlords. That's why there is this 'Dragon of the North' among the ancient khals, it is also why Dany's Dothraki acknowledged her as their khal and became her bloodriders after she hatched the dragon eggs. It transcended their culture.

Now, it will take more than Drogon to take over all the Dothraki, but he is going to be one important puzzle piece.

7 minutes ago, divica said:

However, timewise she can't take too much time to return because there is a huge fleet coming to mereen. She has to return before that fleet that even victarion is afraid of.

Oh, no, for that Daenerys isn't needed. And she could *never* come in time for that considering she isn't even away from Meereen that long when Victarion arrives. It's a couple of days between Dany's disappearance and Hizdahr's arrest. A fortnight, perhaps, not many weeks or months. And Dany spent days at her Dragonstone in the middle of nowhere.

The Volantene fleet is not going to be a problem because the Volantene slave soldiers manning those ships are all fervent followers of R'hllor who are going to raise against their masters as soon as Moqorro gives the command.

Daenerys is not needed for any of that.

7 minutes ago, divica said:

Tyrion not being tywin's son would weaken his story. It would be much better for jaime and cersei to be aerys kids than tyrion. How beautiful is it that the son tywin hated to be his only son? And jaime and cersei fit the targ profile much better. One is insane and the other is great, incest and they are beautiful.

If Tyrion was Tywin's son he is guilty of the worst crime in this world. If he isn't, he still has a chance of redemption. Like Theon does, say, despite his crimes. Tywin also acts very irrational towards Tyrion ... to a degree that doesn't really make sense for this character. Tywin is too smart to be ruled by his emotions this long.

And a crucial plot point of this entire series is truths vs. appearances - with Jon's true parentage, with Cersei's children, with Aegon, with Mance's child, etc. Tyrion's story could only profit if he learned something new about himself and the man who raised him. It would also be a great mirror image if Jaime slew Tyrion's dad while Tyrion slew Jaime's ... just as it would be great if Jon was a prince disguised as a bastard while Tyrion was a bastard disguised as a great lord's son.

7 minutes ago, divica said:

Then if tyrion wasn t his son tywin had thousands of ways to give him a great life without recognizing him as his son. And most of the hate tywin has for tyrion is because he remeber him of his own father if I am not mistaken. 

Tyrion actually has nothing in common with Tytos. He isn't weak in the sense that Tytos was weak. Tywin doesn't like it if Tyrion makes a fool of himself publicly, but that's not restricted to Tyrion.

7 minutes ago, divica said:

Another important fact is that in moqorro's vision involving dragons tyrion wasn t involved. He is just a little man with a very big shadow. Not a dragon himself.

Jon Snow isn't involved there, either. Not every vision/dream has to reveal or hint at everything ;-).

Plot-wise there was not the slightest reason for George write the Aerys-Joanna stuff into ADwD and TWoIaF. There are so many historical mysteries and things he has to flesh out and develop but he had to drag Joanna Lannister into the Targaryen thing and make her the woman Aerys II 'truly desired'.

7 minutes ago, divica said:

Tyrion won t have much power within dany's circle while the lannisters are in power. Nobody would trust tyrion to plot agains his own family. However, when faegon wins KL it will be finaly time for tyrion to rise.

Not sure why anyone would give two cents about Tyrion in the Aegon affair. He can tell some stuff about the gang on the Rhoyne ... but he won't have a clue about the dynamics that allowed Aegon to seize power. He has no idea about the inner workings of the Martells, the Dornish in general, the Tyrells, the Reach lords, etc. He also has no clue about the other Targaryen loyalists in Westeros. And the longer he's away the less worth his knowledge will be, especially have the people he knew are dead by the time he shows up.

7 minutes ago, divica said:

Not true. Tyrion can gather information pretty easily about the plots going on around mereen. And when they go to westeros tyrion can offer the westerlands. Not only does he have knowlegde about the area and possible secret entrances to castles but he can offer his support to danny if she makes him warden of the west. Tyrion has a lot of value simply by being a lannister.

Tyrion has no clue about the Meereenese. To be useful there the folks in charge - Barristan, Skahaz, etc. - would have trust him and give him resources and means to investigate things.

And the West? Don't be ridiculous. Tyrion could be the main reason why the West is *never* going to support Daenerys. Because he murdered the great Lord Tywin and, as far as people know, King Joffrey.

That said - he could be instrumental in taking Casterly Rock - but that's not going to be Daenerys' top priority. In fact, Casterly Rock should be the last place she would want to conquer consider where it is and how difficult it would be to get there from where she is right now.

7 minutes ago, divica said:

That was because tywin wanted to disown tyrion for being a drunk, whoremonger that would give him the humiliation of killing him while he defecates.

Tywin himself is a whoremonger as Shae proves. His issues with Tyrion go much deeper than that.

Tyrion proved his worth in ACoK. He was never groomed to rule yet he did it remarkably well. He helped save the city. But his father completely ignored all that. That doesn't really make all that much sense if there isn't another layer to all that.

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon Snow isn't involved there, either. Not every vision/dream has to reveal or hint at everything ;-).

Both jon and tyrion are in the vision.

"Dragons old (aemon) and young(jon), true (danny) and false (quentin), bright (faegon) and dark (varys or bloodraven). And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.’’

This is the best interpretation of the vision. Not only makes sense but aemon/jon, danny/quentin and faegon/varys are linked in a way that it makes sense they are named together in the vision.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She will be the Stallion Who Mounts the World. That's what this prophecy is in the story for. I didn't think that was the plot until the TV show. I thought she might just take Jhaqo's khalasar but it seems she is destined for much more.

It also fits very well together with the seeds George brought out in AGoT. Dany has to return to Vaes Dothrak. If George wanted to just throw some Dothraki at her he could have had c just searching her out at Meereen. But that didn't happen.

And the Dothraki are also set up to suck up to dragonlords. That's why there is this 'Dragon of the North' among the ancient khals, it is also why Dany's Dothraki acknowledged her as their khal and became her bloodriders after she hatched the dragon eggs. It transcended their culture.

Now, it will take more than Drogon to take over all the Dothraki, but he is going to be one important puzzle piece.

Not all profecies are true. And her being the khal of khals has very little use. First, it would take her months to get that position and bring the dothriaki to mereen. She would be declared dead or forgoten in mereen. Second, she is the oposite of what the dothraki want in a leader. Third, danny gained the loyalty of few dotriaki that already liked her to beguin with, Other khals, bloodriders or violent men that like their way of life would never follow her. Forth, there is a huge number of dothraki in essos. It doesn t make sense for danny to get so many suporters in order to invade westeros.

Besides the show that handled this situation in a very stupid way there is no logic for all dothriaki to follow dany. I totally suport that she will gain her khalaasar, but something around 20k and not much more. 

Oh and a khalasar wouldn t search for her in order to offer themselves to her. Individual dothriaki might, but not a khalasar... 

And the best for the story would be without a doubt for danny to win over the khalasar that is capturing her and return to mereen with it. It would solve this situation with few pov chapters. Otherwise I fear danny will spend most of the book with the dothraki and that is a huge waste of everything.

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, no, for that Daenerys isn't needed. And she could *never* come in time for that considering she isn't even away from Meereen that long when Victarion arrives. It's a couple of days between Dany's disappearance and Hizdahr's arrest. A fortnight, perhaps, not many weeks or months. And Dany spent days at her Dragonstone in the middle of nowhere.

The Volantene fleet is not going to be a problem because the Volantene slave soldiers manning those ships are all fervent followers of R'hllor who are going to raise against their masters as soon as Moqorro gives the command.

Daenerys is not needed for any of that.

But how friendly is moqorro? Is he even going to still be there? I can t think that a danny suporter would help vic to steal a dragon. And given that danny isn t even there I dont  know what moqorro will do in the near future.

And once again, you have to take into account that danny can't have a force much more powerfull than 50k when she invades westeros. She can't sudenly gain allies everywhere lol.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Tyrion was Tywin's son he is guilty of the worst crime in this world. If he isn't, he still has a chance of redemption. Like Theon does, say, despite his crimes. Tywin also acts very irrational towards Tyrion ... to a degree that doesn't really make sense for this character. Tywin is too smart to be ruled by his emotions this long.

And a crucial plot point of this entire series is truths vs. appearances - with Jon's true parentage, with Cersei's children, with Aegon, with Mance's child, etc. Tyrion's story could only profit if he learned something new about himself and the man who raised him. It would also be a great mirror image if Jaime slew Tyrion's dad while Tyrion slew Jaime's ... just as it would be great if Jon was a prince disguised as a bastard while Tyrion was a bastard disguised as a great lord's son.

First, tyrion killed the man that raised him and provided for him while tyrion thought he was his father. If later he finds out that tywin isn t really his father it would cheapen the weight of his decision to kill him. In addition, I think it is worse to kill someone that raised him as his son despite knowing he isn t than to actually kill his father.

Do you think the gods should forgive tyrion because he killed the man he thought was his father instead of his actual father? That is just a weak excuse to escape from a just punishment. 

In regards to what you call irrational hatred. Tywin did give tyrion his position as hand of the king and later as master of coin. And you have to remember how tywin cares about the image of the lannister familly. Can you imagine what people would say about the lannisters if tyrion gets casterly rock? Have any of the other great families ever have a dwarf as lord?

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Plot-wise there was not the slightest reason for George write the Aerys-Joanna stuff into ADwD and TWoIaF. There are so many historical mysteries and things he has to flesh out and develop but he had to drag Joanna Lannister into the Targaryen thing and make her the woman Aerys II 'truly desired'.

Not true. With the dunk and egg stories grrm probably has planed a detailed story about the aerys and rhaela before they married. It makes sense to include details about that in the books.

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure why anyone would give two cents about Tyrion in the Aegon affair. He can tell some stuff about the gang on the Rhoyne ... but he won't have a clue about the dynamics that allowed Aegon to seize power. He has no idea about the inner workings of the Martells, the Dornish in general, the Tyrells, the Reach lords, etc. He also has no clue about the other Targaryen loyalists in Westeros. And the longer he's away the less worth his knowledge will be, especially have the people he knew are dead by the time he shows up.

You misunderstood. I meant that after the lannisters lose KL people will care about tyrion's opinions about how to conquer westeros. While the lannisters are in power people just can't trust tyrion to plan the downfall of his familly...

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion has no clue about the Meereenese. To be useful there the folks in charge - Barristan, Skahaz, etc. - would have trust him and give him resources and means to investigate things.

And the West? Don't be ridiculous. Tyrion could be the main reason why the West is *never* going to support Daenerys. Because he murdered the great Lord Tywin and, as far as people know, King Joffrey.

That said - he could be instrumental in taking Casterly Rock - but that's not going to be Daenerys' top priority. In fact, Casterly Rock should be the last place she would want to conquer consider where it is and how difficult it would be to get there from where she is right now.

Wether they like him or not, if the tyrion is the last lannister and suported by the crown what can the lords of the westerlands do? And not forget that tyrion is very crafty. At the very least he will gain the loyalty of some lords.

And once again I disagree. With tyrion casterly rock is probably the best place for danny to start her conquest. If you think about it it is either casterly rock or the north/eastwatch. All other places are very well defended and recently conquered. Not forget that dorne, stormlands and the crownslands will be united. The vale hasn t participated in a war and sounds like and awfull place to invade. If you target the reach or riverlands you can as well sail a little further and attack casterly rock and use tyrion to establish a base of power in the westerlands.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin himself is a whoremonger as Shae proves. His issues with Tyrion go much deeper than that.

Tyrion proved his worth in ACoK. He was never groomed to rule yet he did it remarkably well. He helped save the city. But his father completely ignored all that. That doesn't really make all that much sense if there isn't another layer to all that.

Tywin can be a whoremonger but he is very discreet about it. Tywin sees tyrion as a constant embarassment. And despite being a dwarf tyrion didn t need to humiliate tywin by being a drunkard and wellknown whoremonger. Hell, tywin gives him the position of hand of the king and only tell him to not bring his whore to KL. And to insult him what does tyrion do? Keep his affair with shae!

If you try to see things from tywin's perspective tyrion is far from being a perfect son. 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Both jon and tyrion are in the vision.

"Dragons old (aemon) and young(jon), true (danny) and false (quentin), bright (faegon) and dark (varys or bloodraven). And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.’’

This is the best interpretation of the vision. Not only makes sense but aemon/jon, danny/quentin and faegon/varys are linked in a way that it makes sense they are named together in the vision.

There are all kinds of ways how to interpret this. It isn't even clear whether Moqorro talks only about human dragons. Some of the dragons mentioned could be the actual, literal dragons Daenerys hatched. There is a bright one there, and a dark one. And Varys and Quentyn aren't 'dragons' in any real sense of the word. At best they are or might be distant dragon descendants.

And, as it happens, Tyrion will be soon in the middle of the real dragons. He certainly also had close contact with Jon and Aemon and Varys and Aegon, I don't deny that. But nothing of that means he cannot be a little bastard dragon himself.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Not all profecies are true. And her being the khal of khals has very little use. First, it would take her months to get that position and bring the dothriaki to mereen. She would be declared dead or forgoten in mereen. Second, she is the oposite of what the dothraki want in a leader. Third, danny gained the loyalty of few dotriaki that already liked her to beguin with, Other khals, bloodriders or violent men that like their way of life would never follow her. Forth, there is a huge number of dothraki in essos. It doesn t make sense for danny to get so many suporters in order to invade westeros.

Most of your points he are either wrong or insignificant. It will take as long as it will take, just as the books do. Dany has a dragon, she can fly around now. She could even visit Meereen on Drogon if she wanted to.

Dany didn't win the loyalty of Dothraki who liked her. She forced the Dothraki who were to old, weak, or afraid to leave to accept her, including her bloodriders who flat-out rejected her before she entered the pyre.

Not all the Dothraki have to accompany Daenerys. But all of them will recognize her as their leader.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Oh and a khalasar wouldn t search for her in order to offer themselves to her. Individual dothriaki might, but not a khalasar... 

Why not? They can do what they want? If a khal wanted to suck up to a dragonlord he could do that.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

And the best for the story would be without a doubt for danny to win over the khalasar that is capturing her and return to mereen with it. It would solve this situation with few pov chapters. Otherwise I fear danny will spend most of the book with the dothraki and that is a huge waste of everything.

But that seems to be the plan. That's why she made the decision to go back. Going back to go forward means to go back all the way to Vaes Dothrak. She has no intention to just take over some khalasar and then go to Meereen. If that was her goal she would have decided to search out the Dothraki to go back to Meereen. But that is clearly not her decision.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

But how friendly is moqorro? Is he even going to still be there? I can t think that a danny suporter would help vic to steal a dragon. And given that danny isn t even there I dont  know what moqorro will do in the near future.

Moqorro doesn't help Vic to steal a dragon. He uses Vic to prevent Euron - the real danger to Daenerys - from acquiring a dragon.

Moqorro also knows that Dany isn't in Meereen. He knows pretty much everything that's going on. He knew enough to jump into the sea and be saved by Vic's people days later.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

And once again, you have to take into account that danny can't have a force much more powerfull than 50k when she invades westeros. She can't sudenly gain allies everywhere lol.

Why not? She might come and view all the Westerosi as her enemies and decide to conquer that continent like Aegon the Conqueror and the Andals did ... for her people. Or she might use them as cannon fodder against the Others.

There isn't really much potential for a long war between Daenerys and the Westerosi. They will quickly fall in line. Especially since all of them will know about the Others by then.

What we can expect is a short struggle between her and Aegon - with Dany taking away KL from Aegon, and him slipping away and/or not being there when she arrives, and then some battles somewhere else if he tries to fight back. And then this whole thing should be over.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

First, tyrion killed the man that raised him and provided for him while tyrion thought he was his father. If later he finds out that tywin isn t really his father it would cheapen the weight of his decision to kill him. In addition, I think it is worse to kill someone that raised him as his son despite knowing he isn t than to actually kill his father.

The decision was made, nothing cheapens in later. But George likes to reveal things about dead people and show them in a different light. First Tywin didn't smile, then he smiled secretly, then he smiled openly, then he laughed aloud with his wife.

Tyrion himself could profit from the fact that he wasn't this man's son, that he isn't guilty of kinslaying, that he even inadvertently avenged his true father and other kin when killing Tywin. It could also help him make his peace with how Tywin treated him, knowing that the man had actually cause to despise ... yet still raised him as his son.

At this point Tyrion still doesn't understand why Tywin treated him the way he did. And he has to understand that for his own story arc. Because while he doesn't he might still kill himself - or get himself killed.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Do you think the gods should forgive tyrion because he killed the man he thought was his father instead of his actual father? That is just a weak excuse to escape from a just punishment. 

If Tywin wasn't Tyrion's father he wouldn't be guilty of kinslaying. He would, of course, still deserve punishment for the murder of Shae but that's another issue.

If Westeros learned Tyrion wasn't Tywin's son they might forgive him for that.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

In regards to what you call irrational hatred. Tywin did give tyrion his position as hand of the king and later as master of coin. And you have to remember how tywin cares about the image of the lannister familly. Can you imagine what people would say about the lannisters if tyrion gets casterly rock? Have any of the other great families ever have a dwarf as lord?

It is not just that Tywin doesn't give him the Rock, it is how he does it. How badly he treats Tyrion, how he doesn't respect or acknowledges his good traits. How he not even cared that he nearly died.

Tywin is a shitty guy, but he isn't shitty without a good reason. And Tyrion just isn't like Tytos. Tywin must have seen that.

But he could fear Tyrion might be like Aerys. He complains that he desires praise, like Aerys did, and one can imagine that he also interpreted the threats Tyrion made to Cersei (harming Tommen) as something Aerys may have done - or actually did to do during the Rebellion. We know Tywin is wary about Joff's behavior - he may have similar concerns about Tyrion, without Tyrion ever realizing his father feels about him this way.

In fact, while we do not know much about Aerys II as a conversationalist it might be that Tyrion's sense of humor is pretty close to that of the Mad King. Tyrion really likes those 'Tywin shits gold' jokes Aerys liked to make. That doesn't mean they must be related, of course, but if you think your son isn't your son you constantly look how he might resemble the man you think is/might be his true father.

Tytos Lannister never was after praise, he just wanted that everybody got along.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Not true. With the dunk and egg stories grrm probably has planed a detailed story about the aerys and rhaela before they married. It makes sense to include details about that in the books.

We are not talking about Dunk & Egg times here, we are talking about the reign of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II, when Aerys and Rhaella were married, but Tywin and Joanna not yet. Dunk & Egg are not going to cover Aerys & Joanna.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Wether they like him or not, if the tyrion is the last lannister and suported by the crown what can the lords of the westerlands do? And not forget that tyrion is very crafty. At the very least he will gain the loyalty of some lords.

What? There is an army of Lannisters in the West, even if Cersei and her children died, the Rock would pass to Kevan's children and then to Tyrek if he shows up again, and then on to Genna's children, and on to the first and second cousins.

Some Westermen like the Plumms might declare for Aegon. But for Daenerys, if Tyrion is with her? Not a chance. That's like saying if Bran had murdered Ned the Northmen would flock to him because he is 'crafty'. They would rather kill him.

Dany making Tyrion her pretender to Casterly Rock would be akin to her shooting herself in the foot. Doesn't mean she won't do it ... but what it means it is not likely going to be a big success. Instead, Tyrion would likely have drown the West in fire and blood to take possession of Casterly Rock.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

And once again I disagree. With tyrion casterly rock is probably the best place for danny to start her conquest. If you think about it it is either casterly rock or the north/eastwatch. All other places are very well defended and recently conquered. Not forget that dorne, stormlands and the crownslands will be united. The vale hasn t participated in a war and sounds like and awfull place to invade. If you target the reach or riverlands you can as well sail a little further and attack casterly rock and use tyrion to establish a base of power in the westerlands.

Daenerys wants the Iron Throne. So she will land at KL, seize the Iron Throne, send out letters and demand submission ... and then unleash her dragons and armies against whoever decides to resist her.

Anything else would be ludicrous. You don't conquer a throne or kingdom by actually conquering it - especially if you are an exiled pretender who can actually expect a decent part of the population to support your ascent - you do it by seizing the trappings of power (i.e. the Iron Throne) to then demand homage. You force your enemies to declare war on you, not the other way around.

And chances are actually pretty low that many Westerosi are going to be eager to face dragons in battle - much less armies of Dothraki or whoever else will accompany Daenerys.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

If you try to see things from tywin's perspective tyrion is far from being a perfect son. 

Nobody said he was the perfect son. Just one who didn't really deserve being treated like he wasn't his son if he actually is his son.

And nobody believing Tyrion was his son would die stating that he isn't. That wouldn't have been Tywin's last words then. More like something 'What an vile little creature I've produced in you' or 'I should have killed you at your birth' or something along those lines. Not 'you are no son of mine'. That is more a statement than an insult.

[divica]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There are all kinds of ways how to interpret this. It isn't even clear whether Moqorro talks only about human dragons. Some of the dragons mentioned could be the actual, literal dragons Daenerys hatched. There is a bright one there, and a dark one. And Varys and Quentyn aren't 'dragons' in any real sense of the word. At best they are or might be distant dragon descendants.

And, as it happens, Tyrion will be soon in the middle of the real dragons. He certainly also had close contact with Jon and Aemon and Varys and Aegon, I don't deny that. But nothing of that means he cannot be a little bastard dragon himself.

Quentin tried to prove he had enough targ blood to tame a dragon. As he failed he was a false dragon. And a false dragon is no dragon at all... In regards to varys he can well be a blackfyre descendant. That makes him a dragon.

On the whole I think that those association just work very well with the way the vision is described.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Most of your points he are either wrong or insignificant. It will take as long as it will take, just as the books do. Dany has a dragon, she can fly around now. She could even visit Meereen on Drogon if she wanted to.

Dany didn't win the loyalty of Dothraki who liked her. She forced the Dothraki who were to old, weak, or afraid to leave to accept her, including her bloodriders who flat-out rejected her before she entered the pyre.

Not all the Dothraki have to accompany Daenerys. But all of them will recognize her as their leader.

The pyre was a special ocasion. Grrm has said she isn t fireproof. And there is no real reason to waste time making danny become the khal of khals. She hasn t even set mereen straight and you want her to jump into another group of people that will hate her when she tries to change them.

It send a much stronger mensage for danny to gather all the dothraki who are unsatisfied with their current lifestyle into her khalasar and march to mereen than what you are saying. There just isn t a good enough reason for what you say to happen besides you having seen it on TV. You can easily read 10 reasons in my previous posts why danny would never be a khal of khals no matter what happens.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But that seems to be the plan. That's why she made the decision to go back. Going back to go forward means to go back all the way to Vaes Dothrak. She has no intention to just take over some khalasar and then go to Meereen. If that was her goal she would have decided to search out the Dothraki to go back to Meereen. But that is clearly not her decision.

I don t remember how her last chapter ends, but I have high doubts she decides to go to vaes dothraek in it. And going back can simply mean she must deal with her dothriaki problems. If I remeber there was a khal she wanted dead. Have you thought that maybe going back means bringing fire and blood to this old enemy of hers before moving forward?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The decision was made, nothing cheapens in later.

Obviously it cheapens the moment. Tyrion decides to kill his father and become a kinslayer. But later finds out that there is no problem because he wasn t his father and therefore he isn't cursed. This would be really bad storytelling.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But George likes to reveal things about dead people and show them in a different light. First Tywin didn't smile, then he smiled secretly, then he smiled openly, then he laughed aloud with his wife.

Tyrion himself could profit from the fact that he wasn't this man's son, that he isn't guilty of kinslaying, that he even inadvertently avenged his true father and other kin when killing Tywin. It could also help him make his peace with how Tywin treated him, knowing that the man had actually cause to despise ... yet still raised him as his son.

At this point Tyrion still doesn't understand why Tywin treated him the way he did. And he has to understand that for his own story arc. Because while he doesn't he might still kill himself - or get himself killed.

Tyrion knows why his father treated him badly. He was a dwarf, drunkard and whoremonger. He is repeatdly told that and he does little to change his ways.

And that is the problem. Tyrion doesn t deserve to profit from killing the man he thinks is his father. He could have run away! But no! He had to have his revenge! He even killed shae... This wasn t something heroic! IT doesn t deserve some cheap method to avoid the consequences of the act.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If Tywin wasn't Tyrion's father he wouldn't be guilty of kinslaying. He would, of course, still deserve punishment for the murder of Shae but that's another issue.

If Westeros learned Tyrion wasn't Tywin's son they might forgive him for that.

Westeros would forgive tyrion for killing one high lord, the man that raised him, the man he tought was his father? yeah... And lets not begin to discuss how anyone could give any sort of proof that tyrion is aerys son. Don t forget nettles story...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not just that Tywin doesn't give him the Rock, it is how he does it. How badly he treats Tyrion, how he doesn't respect or acknowledges his good traits. How he not even cared that he nearly died.

Tywin is a shitty guy, but he isn't shitty without a good reason. And Tyrion just isn't like Tytos. Tywin must have seen that.

But he could fear Tyrion might be like Aerys. He complains that he desires praise, like Aerys did, and one can imagine that he also interpreted the threats Tyrion made to Cersei (harming Tommen) as something Aerys may have done - or actually did to do during the Rebellion. We know Tywin is wary about Joff's behavior - he may have similar concerns about Tyrion, without Tyrion ever realizing his father feels about him this way.

In fact, while we do not know much about Aerys II as a conversationalist it might be that Tyrion's sense of humor is pretty close to that of the Mad King. Tyrion really likes those 'Tywin shits gold' jokes Aerys liked to make. That doesn't mean they must be related, of course, but if you think your son isn't your son you constantly look how he might resemble the man you think is/might be his true father.

Tywin treats him badly? Then how do you think samwell is treated? Do you think he might also be a secret targ?

As a matter of fact tyrion and samwell are in very simillar situations. You could say that grrm uses randyll pretty early in the books to show how nobles treat sons that embarass them simply because of their phisical apearence and lack of talent fighting. And later on can be used as a paralelism to what tywin would try to do to tyrion. Either he goes to the wall or dies.

Actualy, after knowing sam's story it should be pretty easy to predict that something similar would happen to tyrion.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

What? There is an army of Lannisters in the West, even if Cersei and her children died, the Rock would pass to Kevan's children and then to Tyrek if he shows up again, and then on to Genna's children, and on to the first and second cousins.

Some Westermen like the Plumms might declare for Aegon. But for Daenerys, if Tyrion is with her? Not a chance. That's like saying if Bran had murdered Ned the Northmen would flock to him because he is 'crafty'. They would rather kill him.

Dany making Tyrion her pretender to Casterly Rock would be akin to her shooting herself in the foot. Doesn't mean she won't do it ... but what it means it is not likely going to be a big success. Instead, Tyrion would likely have drown the West in fire and blood to take possession of Casterly Rock.

I meant direct descendents from tywin. And I think you are underestimating tyrion. I have little doubts he has plans to control the westerlands. He wanted casterly rock his entire life...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Daenerys wants the Iron Throne. So she will land at KL, seize the Iron Throne, send out letters and demand submission ... and then unleash her dragons and armies against whoever decides to resist her.

Anything else would be ludicrous. You don't conquer a throne or kingdom by actually conquering it - especially if you are an exiled pretender who can actually expect a decent part of the population to support your ascent - you do it by seizing the trappings of power (i.e. the Iron Throne) to then demand homage. You force your enemies to declare war on you, not the other way around.

And chances are actually pretty low that many Westerosi are going to be eager to face dragons in battle - much less armies of Dothraki or whoever else will accompany Daenerys.

Yeah because faegon is doing that...

What is the point of conquering KL if she hasn t any aliance in westeros? And aegon will probably have dragons on his side because we know that there will be a second dance of dragons. I very much doubt either of them will want to use their dragons unless they have no other choice. After all everybody knows how bad the first dance was for the targs.

It makes a lot of sense that if they have dragons both dany and aegon will try to win the throne by a lot of diferent means before they go to war. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody said he was the perfect son. Just one who didn't really deserve being treated like he wasn't his son if he actually is his son.

And nobody believing Tyrion was his son would die stating that he isn't. That wouldn't have been Tywin's last words then. More like something 'What an vile little creature I've produced in you' or 'I should have killed you at your birth' or something along those lines. Not 'you are no son of mine'. That is more a statement than an insult.

First, tyrion was pretty well treated compared to sam. And if we compare him to bastards (all dwarfs are bastards in their fathers eyes) then he was extremely well treated. You aren t being honest...

And tywin's last words were clearly an insult. That no son of his would d that. That he declines tyrion one last time.

[Jaenara Belarys]

16 hours ago, divica said:

"Dragons old (aemon) and young(jon), true (danny) and false (quentin), bright (faegon) and dark (varys or bloodraven). And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.’’

 

I interpret it as : "Dragons old (Aemon) and young (Jon), true (Dany) and false (fAegon) and dark (God knows who). 

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I interpret it as : "Dragons old (Aemon) and young (Jon), true (Dany) and false (fAegon) and dark (God knows who). 

The problem is that a blackfyre is still a dragon. Unless he has no valyrian blood faegon doesn t work as the false dragon.

Quentin on the other hand by failing to tame a dragon proved that he is a false dragon. And his story conected with danny's and therefore makes sense to mention them together.

[Jaenara Belarys]

But Quentyn is never brought up as a dragon, fake or otherwise. The person who is brought up as a fake dragon is fAegon.

[divica]

10 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

But Quentyn is never brought up as a dragon, fake or otherwise. The person who is brought up as a fake dragon is fAegon.

Not quite true. Quentin says several times that he has dragon blood and is descendant of dragons. 

[Hippocras]

27 minutes ago, divica said:

Not quite true. Quentin says several times that he has dragon blood and is descendant of dragons. 

Yes, but he never claims to actually be one. There were never any crowds cheering for him etc. The fake dragon pretty much has to be Aegon.

An interesting surprise twist i suppose would be if Dany's parentage turned out to be different than she believes either because Rhaella had a lover or because there was a baby swap with Ashara's baby at Dragonstone. In that case maybe even Dany herself could be the fake dragon. But it is hard to argue for that since she is after all still the mother of dragons. The only thing going for it really is that she does have some cheering crowds around her at times.

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, but he never claims to actually be one. There were never any crowds cheering for him etc. The fake dragon pretty much has to be Aegon.

An interesting surprise twist i suppose would be if Dany's parentage turned out to be different than she believes either because Rhaella had a lover or because there was a baby swap with Ashara's baby at Dragonstone. In that case maybe even Dany herself could be the fake dragon. But it is hard to argue for that since she is after all still the mother of dragons. The only thing going for it really is that she does have some cheering crowds around her at times.

Why do you think a fake dragon needs cheering crowds? This isn t the dragon's mummer. They are diferent visions.

 

In regards to quentin he could be a fake dragon because he claimed that he was like the targs and could tame a dragon and was proven to be false. Aegon can only be a fake dragon if he isn t a blackfyre.

[Hippocras]

58 minutes ago, divica said:

Why do you think a fake dragon needs cheering crowds? This isn t the dragon's mummer. They are diferent visions.

 

In regards to quentin he could be a fake dragon because he claimed that he was like the targs and could tame a dragon and was proven to be false. Aegon can only be a fake dragon if he isn t a blackfyre.

Viserys was fully Targ but he was not a dragon. "Fire cannot kill a dragon". I know the debate on that one don't worry. the point is just that not everyone with dragon blood is necessarily passing on whatever the key element is. A bit like red hair genes not always making red hair.

[Jaenara Belarys]

5 hours ago, divica said:

Not quite true. Quentin says several times that he has dragon blood and is descendant of dragons. 

But as @Hippocras states, he never actually calls himself a dragon like Viserys does.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Viserys was fully Targ but he was not a dragon. "Fire cannot kill a dragon". I know the debate on that one don't worry. the point is just that not everyone with dragon blood is necessarily passing on whatever the key element is. A bit like red hair genes not always making red hair.

If you go by 'some guy having dragon blood' then all the Baratheons are dragons, and those who claim to have Baratheon blood (Cersei's children) would be fake dragons.

House Blackfyre is supposedly extinct in the male line, so neither Varys nor Illyrio or Aegon or anybody suspected of Blackfyre ancestry is actualy a Blackfyre. At best they would be Blackfyre through the female like, like Robert and his brothers are Targaryen through the female, Harry the Heir is Arryn through the female line, and so forth.

In a strict sense human dragons would only guys who have a dragon name (Targaryen or Blackfyre) and/or use the dragon as their banner. Bastards wouldn't be part of the family in that sense.

18 hours ago, divica said:

The pyre was a special ocasion. Grrm has said she isn t fireproof. And there is no real reason to waste time making danny become the khal of khals. She hasn t even set mereen straight and you want her to jump into another group of people that will hate her when she tries to change them.

It isn't the Unburnt thing as such ... it is that she is the Unburnt and comes out with three living dragons. The dragons are the thing that make her people her own.

I'm not writing the story, but it is quite clear that Jhaqo's khalasar is going to take Dany to Vaes Dothrak ... just as it is clear that she went to them because they will take her back there.

18 hours ago, divica said:

It send a much stronger mensage for danny to gather all the dothraki who are unsatisfied with their current lifestyle into her khalasar and march to mereen than what you are saying. There just isn t a good enough reason for what you say to happen besides you having seen it on TV. You can easily read 10 reasons in my previous posts why danny would never be a khal of khals no matter what happens.

There is a vision in the House of the Undying whether the dosh khaleen submit to Daenerys at the Womb of the World. This will happen.

18 hours ago, divica said:

I don t remember how her last chapter ends, but I have high doubts she decides to go to vaes dothraek in it. And going back can simply mean she must deal with her dothriaki problems. If I remeber there was a khal she wanted dead. Have you thought that maybe going back means bringing fire and blood to this old enemy of hers before moving forward?

No, because Dany didn't know the khal she met would be Jhaqo, nor is there any chance she and Drogon could defeat them. Hizdahr's goons nearly killed Drogon in the Pit. While there is a chance that Dany could tell Drogon to attack and kill a specific person ... the buddies of that guy would quickly dispatch him. The Dothraki do have dragonbone bows, after all.

And Daenerys allows herself to be captured by the Dothraki at the end. She is found by Khal Jhaqo while feasting with Drogon on horse meat. She is not prepared to fight.

18 hours ago, divica said:

Westeros would forgive tyrion for killing one high lord, the man that raised him, the man he tought was his father? yeah... And lets not begin to discuss how anyone could give any sort of proof that tyrion is aerys son. Don t forget nettles story...

We don't need proof. If Tyrion becomes a dragonrider and it is theoretically possible that the Mad King might be his father, he will become his father whether that's true or not. Tyrion believes that you need dragonlord blood to ride a dragon, so if he himself rides a dragon he will know/believe he must have dragonlord/Targaryen blood. And he would not have inherited that from his Lannister parents.

Tyrion isn't some bastard girl born by a whore, nor is he a blacksmith's bastard or some drunkard man-at-arms. He is of high birth. If he has a dragon, he will be able to use him to acquire even more power.

18 hours ago, divica said:

Tywin treats him badly? Then how do you think samwell is treated? Do you think he might also be a secret targ?

LOL, no. There is no indication that a Targaryen had the hots for Sam's mom, nor the opportunity to father Samwell on her. With Tyrion it is different.

18 hours ago, divica said:

I meant direct descendents from tywin. And I think you are underestimating tyrion. I have little doubts he has plans to control the westerlands. He wanted casterly rock his entire life...

He wanted the love and respect of his father, not Casterly Rock.

If Tyrion becomes a dragonrider he will have bigger goals than just the Rock. He might aim at the Iron Throne itself, regardless whether he is a Targaryen descendant or not. Dragons are power, and if Aegon can do it, why not Tyrion Lannister?

This is also a common misconception that Tyrion and Dany are going to be buddies. If Tyrion claims one of the riderless dragons then he will be nearly as special a person as Daenerys ... and she isn't there and believed to be dead. Why couldn't he become a king if he has a dragon? What's stopping him?

Dany's people might join another dragonrider quickly enough. What else could they do if Dany were truly dead?

Mind you, we know Tyrion and Dany will eventually hook up - although, according to George, not exactly early in TWoW - but it could become pretty tense if Tyrion had a dragon but no interest in House Targaryen.

I mean, if he gets a dragon - why should he give two cents about the girl?

18 hours ago, divica said:

What is the point of conquering KL if she hasn t any aliance in westeros? And aegon will probably have dragons on his side because we know that there will be a second dance of dragons. I very much doubt either of them will want to use their dragons unless they have no other choice. After all everybody knows how bad the first dance was for the targs.

With Aegon being in Westeros and the three dragons in Essos chances for Aegon to get a dragon are not that good. He could get one if one of the other dragonriders were to die, but that's a big if. And why would anyone stick to the dragonless dragon when the dragon queen finally arrives? Or why would one of Dany's dragonriders defect to Aegon ... and not rather decide he would make a better king than them all? Dragons are power, not good looks and purple eyes.