Do people forget that Daenerys heard Rhaegar say that Aegon is the Prince who was promised?

[divica]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the Tywin's treatment of Tyrion is not really a core argument in this debate. It supports the idea that Tyrion might be Aerys' bastard if we assume Tywin knew or suspected this ... but if that wasn't case the idea could still work. It is not a deciding factor.

It kind of is. Because besides this the only other hints about it come from Agot (if I am not mistaken). And they basically are tyrion's interest in dragons and his eyes' colors that people believe might be a genetic quimera or whatever. And I don t think asoiaf is the kind of book where we would see this kind of genetic phenomena. This is medieval...

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Victarion wants Daenerys, the woman Euron covets, for himself. If he claims a dragon he will search for her in the Dothraki Sea. He won't fly or sail back to Westeros.

Of course, dragonriders can die, too, but even if one of them died ... chances are much better than Jon is then going to claim such a dragon, not Aegon. Jon Snow is clearly destined to claim one of the three dragons when they are finally in Westeros.

Danny is lost or dead somewhere and vic wants to leave BEFORE the voltantenese (?) arrive. If he can control a dragon he has every reason to leave as soon as possible. I mean, danny is gone, mereen is filled with desease, a huge army is coming, he has a dragon, the people in mereen probably are discussing ways to kill him and get the dragon back... His only option is really to take his armada and ran away from the incoming army.

And I doubt we will only get 3 dragons. After all, 3 dragons are either deus ex machina or are incampable of stopping the countless others...

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Can you actually back that up with textual evidence? Tyrion demands Casterly Rock as reward from his father when he is disappointed and angry that his father refuses to show him respect and affection. He doesn't think much about Casterly Rock nor does he see himself sitting on the throne of the old Kings of the West, etc. That doesn't seem to be something he cares much about.

What he actually enjoys is being Hand of the King and ruling the Realm.

Of course, as the exile he is he certainly wants to eventually claim the Rock - if he only to have the funds to pay the sellswords whom he promised gigantic fortunes - to hurt those members of his family who discarded him the way they did. And also to shit on Tywin's grave, etc. But it is not something he deeply desired.

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 "What do I want, you ask? I'll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock."

His father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

About tyrion and tywin by the way

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"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

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Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. "Very good, Father," 

Quote

It would mean the end of his marriage and whatever claim he might ever have made for Casterly Rock, but he did not seem destined to enjoy either in any case. And he seemed to recall that there was a brothel in a nearby village.

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"Stannis might well grant me Casterly Rock," said Tyrion, "but for the small matter of regicide and kinslaying. For those he would shorten me by a head, and I am short enough as I stand. But why would you think I mean to join Lord Stannis?"

And I am sick of tyrion complaining about casterly rock.

However, tywin clearly states that he wishes he could prove tyrion wasn t his son...

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, divica said:

It kind of is. Because besides this the only other hints about it come from Agot (if I am not mistaken). And they basically are tyrion's interest in dragons and his eyes' colors that people believe might be a genetic quimera or whatever. And I don t think asoiaf is the kind of book where we would see this kind of genetic phenomena. This is medieval...

No, it is not. It is a very superficial thing. The idea rests mainly on the fact that the Mad King lusted after Joanna and had the opportunity to have sex with her around the time of Tyrion's conception.

There is also Tyrion's interest in dragons, his dragon dreams, the hints that he is going to become one of the dragonriders, the fact that only dragonlord descendants have, historically, been dragonriders, and the fact that Tyrion himself points out that his father could never prove he was a bastard because his mother died in childbirth.

But all that would be irrelevant if Aerys II had no opportunity to father Tyrion. But it seems that he had that opportunity. The Lannisters/Tyrion could have Targaryen blood through some other way, if George wanted it ... but that doesn't seem to be the case. They have no Targaryen blood at all ... or Tyrion has some Targaryen blood because Aerys II is his father.

The eye color thing is another indication since, aside from Tyrion, two other Targaryens have mismatched eyes of that kind - Shiera Seastar and Alyssa Targaryen.

8 minutes ago, divica said:

Danny is lost or dead somewhere and vic wants to leave BEFORE the voltantenese (?) arrive. If he can control a dragon he has every reason to leave as soon as possible. I mean, danny is gone, mereen is filled with desease, a huge army is coming, he has a dragon, the people in mereen probably are discussing ways to kill him and get the dragon back... His only option is really to take his armada and ran away from the incoming army.

You are arguing against the text here. Vic learns that Dany has disappeared into the Dothraki Sea ... and then he declares that he is going to sail that sea and find his bride. He cannot possibly sail the Dothraki Sea as he has been told but if he claims a dragons he can fly above it and find his bride.

But even if Vic were to leave Slaver's Bay with a dragon to return to Westeros. The dragon he stole would go to Euron, not to Aegon.

8 minutes ago, divica said:

About tyrion and tywin by the way

And I am sick of tyrion complaining about casterly rock.

However, tywin clearly states that he wishes he could prove tyrion wasn t his son...

Tyrion only gets interested in CR after his father refuses to grant the lordship to him.

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it is not. It is a very superficial thing. The idea rests mainly on the fact that the Mad King lusted after Joanna and had the opportunity to have sex with her around the time of Tyrion's conception.

There is also Tyrion's interest in dragons, his dragon dreams, the hints that he is going to become one of the dragonriders, the fact that only dragonlord descendants have, historically, been dragonriders, and the fact that Tyrion himself points out that his father could never prove he was a bastard because his mother died in childbirth.

But all that would be irrelevant if Aerys II had no opportunity to father Tyrion. But it seems that he had that opportunity. The Lannisters/Tyrion could have Targaryen blood through some other way, if George wanted it ... but that doesn't seem to be the case. They have no Targaryen blood at all ... or Tyrion has some Targaryen blood because Aerys II is his father.

The eye color thing is another indication since, aside from Tyrion, two other Targaryens have mismatched eyes of that kind - Shiera Seastar and Alyssa Targaryen.

There aren t hints that he can become a dragonrider nor dragon dreams. The only lannister I remember possibly having a dragon dream is jaime...

And since Agot there aren't clues about him being a targ. Even the aerys interest about joanna doesn t make sense for tyrion being a targ.Joanna would take moon tea if she had sex with aerys after being married. She knows what tywin would do to her and her bastard if the child was born with targ characteristics. 

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are arguing against the text here. Vic learns that Dany has disappeared into the Dothraki Sea ... and then he declares that he is going to sail that sea and find his bride. He cannot possibly sail the Dothraki Sea as he has been told but if he claims a dragons he can fly above it and find his bride.

But even if Vic were to leave Slaver's Bay with a dragon to return to Westeros. The dragon he stole would go to Euron, not to Aegon.

After moqorro's intervention vic's dragon belongs to him. He could even use it to become king of the IB... However, if vic dies in westeros it makes sense that his dragon could land in aegon or jon's hands.

And whatever vic said before he reached mereen and has all the facts means little. Once he can't sail the dothraki sea he has no choice but return to westeros before the volanteene arrive.

 

[Mister Smikes]

10 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

This is madness. If they had greyscale, I'm sure they'd be dead by now considering that Dragonstone is hundreds of years old. 

How old were Dany's fossilized dragon eggs?  Anyhow, dragons are magical creatures, and we don't know if greyscale works on dragons the same way it does on people.

[Jaenara Belarys]

12 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

How old were Dany's fossilized dragon eggs?  Anyhow, dragons are magical creatures, and we don't know if greyscale works on dragons the same way it does on people.

Dragon eggs can't catch greyscale. And also, why didn't the dragons show signs of being alive if they had greyscale? 

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Dragon eggs can't catch greyscale.

Who says they can't and so what if they can't?    Logically, a fossilized dragon egg is also dead.  Logically, any dragon who has been turned to stone is dead.  

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And also, why didn't the dragons show signs of being alive if they had greyscale? 

Because (and this is only theory) the greyscale is sufficiently advanced.  It has turned them into stone.  They are now dead or ... at least, just as apparently dead as a fossilized dragon egg.  If blood magic can wake one kind of stone dragon, perhaps it can awake another kind of stone dragon.

But really, it is up to GRRM how the rules work.  Dragons are obviously magical creatures, and greyscale is obviously a magical (or at least hugely fantastical) disease.

Also Davos did think (though perhaps it was only imagination) that the "statues" showed signs of being alive.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 4/20/2021 at 4:28 PM, Mister Smikes said:

it is foreshadowed, by way of a chess metaphor, that he will bring out his dragon too early and lose it;

Or he himself is the "dragon" who moved out too soon and loses.

 

[Mister Smikes]

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Or he himself is the "dragon" who moved out too soon and loses.

Maybe.  But a metaphor symbolizing a metaphor is a bit too obscure for my taste, even if I assume YG is really Aegon.   Also, this switches YG from being the player to being one of the pieces.

[Lord Varys]

On 4/23/2021 at 4:31 AM, divica said:

There aren t hints that he can become a dragonrider nor dragon dreams. The only lannister I remember possibly having a dragon dream is jaime...

You are wrong. Tyrion had dreams about dragons, i.e. dragon dreams. He is also very much fascinated with dragons, wanted a dragon as a pet, etc. Not other character we know of had this interest.

On 4/23/2021 at 4:31 AM, divica said:

And since Agot there aren't clues about him being a targ. Even the aerys interest about joanna doesn t make sense for tyrion being a targ.Joanna would take moon tea if she had sex with aerys after being married. She knows what tywin would do to her and her bastard if the child was born with targ characteristics.

LOL, does she now? Joanna Lannister supposedly ruled Tywin Lannister. Do you know what some wives do who rule their husbands? They cuckold them while they watch. I'm not saying Joanna did that to Tywin, mind you, but if she was the boss in that relationship she could have gotten away with having an affair easily enough. Especially if it was an affair with the king and especially if she, Joanna, got Tywin his precious Hand of the King position by sleeping with Aerys before. Which is actually not unlikely.

On 4/23/2021 at 4:31 AM, divica said:

After moqorro's intervention vic's dragon belongs to him. He could even use it to become king of the IB... However, if vic dies in westeros it makes sense that his dragon could land in aegon or jon's hands.

If Vic's dragon is bonded with a Greyjoy it stands to reason he would also bond with another Greyjoy, meaning Euron. But again - Vic is in the game for Daenerys, not just for a dragon.

On 4/23/2021 at 4:31 AM, divica said:

And whatever vic said before he reached mereen and has all the facts means little. Once he can't sail the dothraki sea he has no choice but return to westeros before the volanteene arrive.

He could also take his dragon to the Dothraki Sea. Or, you know, use his dragon to attack the Volantenes. Or do some other stupid thing. He doesn't have to do what you think he has to do.

[Rose of Red Lake]

14 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Maybe.  But a metaphor symbolizing a metaphor is a bit too obscure for my taste, even if I assume YG is really Aegon.   Also, this switches YG from being the player to being one of the pieces.

That's funny, I see it completely the opposite. I think the "3 heads" riding dragons is too literal. Aegon being successful to gain people's support without dragons is an interesting contrast to Dany. But also, I think he is a piece. He is being used by Illyrio and Varys.

[Mister Smikes]

55 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's funny, I see it completely the opposite. I think the "3 heads" riding dragons is too literal.

I was not talking about the 3heads prophesy, but about the potential symbolism/foreshadowing of YG misplaying his dragon in a game of cyvasse.

55 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Aegon being successful to gain people's support without dragons is an interesting contrast to Dany.

Okay, maybe.  But in that case maybe a cigar is just a cigar, and YG's strategic error represents nothing more than Tyrion being a better chess player.

55 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But also, I think he is a piece. He is being used by Illyrio and Varys.

Okay.  So then you are saying that YG (the literal chess player) represents Illyrio+Varys (metaphorical chess players) in this foreshadowing?  

And you don't understand what I mean when I suggest that (if this is indeed foreshadowing) YG representing YG is less of a stretch?

If you're going to stretch that far, would it not make more sense to say that this is not foreshadowing at all?  If you play SIX DEGREES OF KEVIN BACON, you can make anything represent anything else, but at some point it becomes a meaningless exercise.

[Rose of Red Lake]

21 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

If you're going to stretch that far, would it not make more sense to say that this is not foreshadowing at all?  If you play SIX DEGREES OF KEVIN BACON, you can make anything represent anything else, but at some point it becomes a meaningless exercise.

I'm just disagreeing with you, I'm not looking for a fight. Chill.

[Mister Smikes]

41 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm just disagreeing with you, I'm not looking for a fight. Chill.

That's all I'm doing.  Disagreeing with you.  And giving reasons.   I guess "chill" in this context means "shut up" or something.  Okay, fine.  Be that way.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 4/22/2021 at 12:54 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Good luck to them.  But it is almost as though you think Edric was never in any danger from Stannis and Mel, because, after all, Andrew Estermont and the others were there to protect him.  GRRM will have a super-easy time getting around this obstacle, if that's where he wants the story to go.

 

What, you think he's in danger from people who are hundreds or thousands of miles away?

 

On 4/22/2021 at 12:54 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Okay, but why is this an obstacle?  Why do you think Salador does not know where Edric is?  Sure, it is POSSIBLE he does not know, but you cannot disprove a theory with a purely speculative objection.

 

Lys is a city. Cities are relatively easy to disappear into. 

3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's all I'm doing.  Disagreeing with you.  And giving reasons.   I guess "chill" in this context means "shut up" or something.  Okay, fine.  Be that way.

No, it means calm down.

 

 

[Mister Smikes]

50 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

 

What, you think he's in danger from people who are hundreds or thousands of miles away?

That's certainly not what I said   

50 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Lys is a city. Cities are relatively easy to disappear into. 

This depends on circumstances that are fully under GRRM's control, and maybe under Salador's control as well.

50 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

No, it means calm down.

[Shrug]  I'm not excited and I've given nobody any reason to think I am excited.

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

[Shrug]  I'm not excited and I've given nobody any reason to think I am excited.

Your earlier comment sure does sound "excited" to me. 

 

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

This depends on circumstances that are fully under GRRM's control, and maybe under Salador's control as well.

 

I don't know about Saan, but everything's under GRRM's control. 

 

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

[Shrug]  I'm not excited and I've given nobody any reason to think I am excited.

Your comment seems to say that I think that Edric is in danger from Stannis and Mel. When did I say that? I've been talking about Saan, not Stannis.

[Mister Smikes]

44 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Your earlier comment sure does sound "excited" to me. 

Nope.  

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I don't know about Saan, but everything's under GRRM's control. 

Of course.   And Lys is on an island.  And I don't know if Estermont & friends even speak the local language.  Which certainly suggests the possibility that Estermont & friends are more or less at the mercy of Saan's people (or not, it is purely up to GRRM).  Nor have they any particular motive to flee Saan's protection absent any suspicion he plans to sell Edric to blood mages for human sacrifice.  Which I'm sure Saan isn't going to tell them.

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Your comment seems to say that I think that Edric is in danger from Stannis and Mel.

I used the past tense.  Edric WAS in danger from Stannis and Mel.  The point being, that the fact that Edric was under the protection of Estermont & Friends is not necessarily relevant, because Estermont isn't Superman.

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I've been talking about Saan, not Stannis.

Same deal.  Estermont isn't Superman.  And even if he were, GRRM is in control of the story, and can give Saan as much kryptonite to send the story in whatever direction he wants.

I merely pointed out a few hints suggesting the possibility that the story was headed in a particular direction.  It is only a theory.  It might not be true.  There is no particular need to disprove it.   But since you have tried to disprove it, your disproofs are rather silly.  All you are doing is showing that it is possible to speculate otherwise.

[Darth Sidious]

The role passed to Dany. Aegon is dead. She is Azor Ahai. AA and the prince is the same person. A female in her case. 
 

Apparently, if Rhaegar truly believed what he said, the song of ice and fire does not require Stark blood. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/4/2021 at 7:19 PM, Egged said:

OP

  Quote

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Daenerys IX, Game 68

The pronoun “he” above, of course, refers to Drogo, whom Daenerys was about to send off into the night lands. Will Drogo return?

Quentyn son of Prince Doran of House Martell, whose sigil is the sun, rose in the west when he left Dorne, and he set in the east when he was killed in Meereen. Our lovely dragon queen notes in Daenerys X, Dance 71, that the Dothraki Sea is going dry. When she sits among her persimmon trees and lemon trees atop the Great Pyramid of Meereen and looks upon the smaller pyramids, she feels as if she is “atop the highest mountain in the world,” thus comparing the pyramids to mountains. Since then, one such “mountain” has collapsed in ruins, and the dragons have turned two more into smoking lairs.

That leaves us with Daenerys’s womb quickening again, and her bearing a living child. Even if what Daenerys went through on her recent walk about was a miscarriage, that would not satisfy the elements above. A quickening happens when a mother-to-be can feel the fetus moving. However, since the other elements have been satisfied, and since this is a fantasy filled with prophecy and foreshadowing, I would think that Daenerys’s womb will quicken again, and she will bear a living child, and her son will sit the Iron Throne...

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When her son sat the Iron Throne, she would see that he had bloodriders of his own to protect him against treachery in his Kingsguard.

Daenerys IV, Game 36

Her son will be Aegon’s...

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Drogo's braid was black as midnight and heavy with scented oil, hung with tiny bells that rang softly as he moved. It swung well past his belt, below even his buttocks, the end of it brushing against the back of his thighs.

"You see how long it is?" Viserys said. "When Dothraki are defeated in combat, they cut off their braids in disgrace, so the world will know their shame. Khal Drogo has never lost a fight. He is Aegon the Dragonlord come again, and you will be his queen."

Daenerys I, Game 3

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The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

Daenerys VI, Storm 71 (emphasis in the original)

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Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. There would have been a sixth, but the Usurper’s dogs had murdered her brother’s son when he was still a babe at the breast. If he had lived, I might have married him.

Daenerys I, Dance 2 (emphasis in the original)

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"I told you, I know our little queen. Let her hear that her brother Rhaegar's murdered son is still alive, that this brave boy has raised the dragon standard of her forebears in Westeros once more, that he is fighting a desperate war to avenge his father and reclaim the Iron Throne for House Targaryen, hard-pressed on every side … and she will fly to your side as fast as wind and water can carry her. You are the last of her line, and this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer. The girl who drowned the slaver cities in blood rather than leave strangers to their chains can scarcely abandon her own brother's son in his hour of peril. And when she reaches Westeros, and meets you for the first time, you will meet as equals, man and woman, not queen and supplicant. How can she help but love you then, I ask you?"

Tyrion VI, Dance 22

The love won’t last, of course...

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"I will leave you." Varys rose. "I know how weary you must be. I only wished to welcome you, my lord, and tell you how very pleased I am by your arrival. We have dire need of you on the council. Have you seen the comet?"

 

"I'm short, not blind," Tyrion said. Out on the kingsroad, it had seemed to cover half the sky, outshining the crescent moon.

 

"In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger," Varys said. "They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow." 

Tyrion I, Clash 3

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  Hide contents

It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate.  "It is dragons."     

"Dragons?"  said her mother.  "Teora, don't be mad."

"I'm not.  They're coming."

"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice.  "One of your little dreams?"

Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling.  "They were dancing.  In my dream.  And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

Arianne I, Winds

And Daenerys will vanquish Aegon...

  Quote

“The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do.”

The Ugly Little Girl, Dance 64

Daenerys was the first head. Aegon, red with rust, is revealed to be the second. Jon will be revealed to be the third. Although a dragon is still a dragon whether it is black or red, Aegon is the mummer’s dragon...

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"What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"

"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."

Daenerys V, Clash 63

And Daenerys will slay the fraud...

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A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. ... mother of dragons, slayer of lies...

Daenerys IV, Clash 48

So, the wee Targlet will live, but Daenerys won’t...

  Quote

... three fires must you light ... one for life and one for death and one to love ...

Daenerys IV, Clash 48

The last fire Daenerys will light will be the one that is lit to consume her lifeless body after she dies giving birth to her child, a fire to love.

Drogo will not return to Daenerys, but Daenerys will return to Drogo.

Consider the three mounts she must ride, "one to bed and one dread and one to love." Most of us suspect the first is her silver with Drogo to the grassy place beside a small stream, and that the second is Drogo’s namesake Drogon. The George loves his threes, so I goat a gold dragon says the third one will be the smoky stallion Daenerys will ride to join her sun-and-stars in the Night Lands.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 4/24/2021 at 5:24 AM, Lord Varys said:

He could also take his dragon to the Dothraki Sea. Or, you know, use his dragon to attack the Volantenes. Or do some other stupid thing. He doesn't have to do what you think he has to do.

Speaking of stupid things, remember when Victarion says that the "best thing would be to sweep in from the sea, smash the slavers, take the girl and race for home". How in the holy hell is he going to "take the girl and race for home"? Is he that stupid?

 

On 4/24/2021 at 7:56 PM, Mister Smikes said:

I merely pointed out a few hints suggesting the possibility that the story was headed in a particular direction.  It is only a theory.  It might not be true.  There is no particular need to disprove it.   But since you have tried to disprove it, your disproofs are rather silly.  All you are doing is showing that it is possible to speculate otherwise.

Whatever you want, ser. I'm not going to try to argue with someone who will obviously never listen to the opposite opinion.