Do people forget that Daenerys heard Rhaegar say that Aegon is the Prince who was promised?

[Daeron the Daring]

7 hours ago, Egged said:

I see a lot of people immediately assume that Daenerys will be all angry at Aegon and what not and want him dead.

They don't get it.

7 hours ago, Egged said:

But do people forget this?

Oh yes, they do. For simple reasons. Some expect bad decisions from Daenerys because....(Idk why)...Others can't accept anyone but her as THE ruler and expect her to do anything for the sake of the IT (?), and some say she's the slayer of lies, and Aegon is a lie.

7 hours ago, Egged said:

She is the ONE person in the world who is in a position to support Aegon above all others: she believes she saw her brother Rhaegar literally prophesize that he would be KING, and he looked to Daenerys and said "There must be one more, the dragon has three heads."

In this vision and her very clear memory of it, Rhaegar bestows Aegon AND Daenerys as part of the dragon.

Yes and yes. And this not only supports Aegon from Dany's Pov, but also a third someone.

7 hours ago, Egged said:

Aegon is currently on a path to fall for Arianne. Daenerys on the other hand wouldn't want him dead, she would want him to know that he is "The prince that was promised" and that together they are the dragon. She isn't going to want to kill him. And people could claim that he must surely be a Blackfyre, they have nothing to prove it, while she has the vision of her brother.

Agreed. If Aegon is in fact a Blackfyre, Varys and Illyrio made sure people won't be able to find that out. Unless someone like Bran reveals it (be it Quathie, him, or someone else).

7 hours ago, Egged said:

Obviously, later on she may come to realize that Jon is TPTWP and that the Song of Ice and Fire was is, as it would make it more obvious due to his lineage. But until then, she has very personal reasons to believe Aegon is NOT someone that must die, in fact she must help him, they belong together, as she saw Rhaegar claim in her vision. She wouldn't be angry at him for marrying Arianne for example, she would just want to tell him what SHE knows, to bring him on the right path, to fulfill the prophecy Rhaegar saw

Now I am doubtful about the situation with Arianne(if it ever becomes a thing), but one thing is sure: Why would Daenerys kill his own nephew? To be, again, the last Targaryen? It's nonsense. For her claim and the Iron Throne? I call that a dumb assumption.

You've presented a very good reason on why she will accept Aegon, and that applies especially on Aegon, but on every living Targaryen, I believe. Simply because Daenerys' whole arc isn't reaching the IT or world conquest. It's finding her home. He made clear several times that she seeks home, a place she could rest and live afterwards, and taking back Westeros is her duty, not what she desires. A male Targaryen showing up would be a welcomed suprise to her, not the opposite. Yet, people who are unable to accept that Rhaego is dead and Daenerys won't rule alone the 7K are claiming this. That she will see Jon or/and Aegon as his enemy. Why? Wouldn't she need someone in her lifetime? The only reason I could imagine that will make Daenerys mad about Arianne and Aegon (if it ever happens) is that she will eant him for herself.

Getting back to Aegon: Many people se him as he's doomed to die for being fake, being a Blackfyre or not being TPTWP. Again, why? I'm totally convinced that he's a Blackfyre. Why couldn't he be a head of the dragon? Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. I'd like to think that altough Aegon will not rule in the end, he is the key to end the Targaryen-Blackfyre conflict. He doesn't necesarilly have to die, why would he have to? If, let's say, Aegon's true identity is revealed to Daenerys before Jon's,  wouldn't Aegon still be his closest kin (the Baratheons don't count for obvious reasons), and a dragonrider candidate? What if he already has a dragons by that point? But I totally consider Aegon being a Targaryen a possibility. Either way, he is a dragon. He isn't a mummer dragon, just the mummer's. And as someone said above, Daenerys might see someone else too as the mummer's dragon.

[corbon]

9 hours ago, Egged said:

I see a lot of people immediately assume that Daenerys will be all angry at Aegon and what not and want him dead.

But do people forget this?

No, very much doubt that they do mostly. They just see more than that.

9 hours ago, Egged said:

She is the ONE person in the world who is in a position to support Aegon above all others: she believes she saw her brother Rhaegar literally prophesize that he would be KING, and he looked to Daenerys and said "There must be one more, the dragon has three heads."

In this vision and her very clear memory of it, Rhaegar bestows Aegon AND Daenerys as part of the dragon.

Yes, but why would she? 
Rhaegar failed, died. He was wrong. SHE is tPtwP, the dragons prove it, clearly (in her view - but also in fact in Aemon's view, who agreed with Rhaegar before). Rhaegar was clearly fallible, since he lost and died. He can be part right - she is the 'one more', and part wrong - She, not Aegon is the PtwP.

And thats assuming she knows or cares about prophecy at all. She is the Mother of Dragons after all. Thats real and now and much bigger than some dusty old obscure prophecies that may or may not be relevant in the here and now.

9 hours ago, Egged said:

Aegon is currently on a path to fall for Arianne. Daenerys on the other hand wouldn't want him dead, she would want him to know that he is "The prince that was promised" and that together they are the dragon. She isn't going to want to kill him. And people could claim that he must surely be a Blackfyre, they have nothing to prove it, while she has the vision of her brother.

Obviously, later on she may come to realize that Jon is TPTWP and that the Song of Ice and Fire was is, as it would make it more obvious due to his lineage. But until then, she has very personal reasons to believe Aegon is NOT someone that must die, in fact she must help him, they belong together, as she saw Rhaegar claim in her vision. She wouldn't be angry at him for marrying Arianne for example, she would just want to tell him what SHE knows, to bring him on the right path, to fulfill the prophecy Rhaegar saw.

I don't think you are displaying any idea how to get inside someone's head and see things from their POV. 

[Mister Smikes]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

They don't get it.

Oh yes, they do. For simple reasons. Some expect bad decisions from Daenerys because....(Idk why)...Others can't accept anyone but her as THE ruler and expect her to do anything for the sake of the IT (?), and some say she's the slayer of lies, and Aegon is a lie.

I do expect bad decisions from Dany.  (Daario and/or Euron will play some role in this).  I don't see her as THE ruler.  I do expect her to go farther than she should for the sake of the IT before she changes course.  And yes, fAegon is a lie, and she is the slayer of lies.

Consider also this:  Illyrio sent Dany off into the Dothraki sea expecting her to die.  She survived and hatched 3 dragons.  He sent 3 ships to bring her back to Pentos.  She instead conquered 3 cities.  Illyrio wanted fAegon and Dany to join forces before coming to Westeros.  That did not happen.   I'm noticing a pattern here.  Illyrio's plans for Dany, as he plots to put fAegon on the Iron Throne, are not working out.  

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If Aegon is in fact a Blackfyre, Varys and Illyrio made sure people won't be able to find that out.

An excellent reason for believing that the real Aegon must be still alive.  If he is, someone out there may know the truth.

Also, Illyrio deliberately sent Dany into the Dothraki sea, expecting her to die.  Tyrion knows this, and Dany may be meeting Tyrion soon.  Tyrion is another troublemaker.  Another reason to prejudice her against Illyrio's pet project.

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Now I am doubtful about the situation with Arianne(if it ever becomes a thing), but one thing is sure: Why would Daenerys kill his own nephew? To be, again, the last Targaryen? It's nonsense. For her claim and the Iron Throne? I call that a dumb assumption.

You've presented a very good reason on why she will accept Aegon, and that applies especially on Aegon, but on every living Targaryen, I believe. Simply because Daenerys' whole arc isn't reaching the IT or world conquest.  It's finding her home.

Finding her home, and claiming her birthright, are not necessarily compatible goals.  GRRM has created considerable tension around the question as to whether Dany has a streak of madness or is "the Mad King's Daughter" in spirit as well as by birth.  I expect things to get a whole lot worse before they get better.

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Getting back to Aegon: Many people se him as he's doomed to die for being fake, being a Blackfyre or not being TPTWP. Again, why? I'm totally convinced that he's a Blackfyre. Why couldn't he be a head of the dragon?

Well, for starters, he does not come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

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Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon.

You're quoting Illyrio.

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Either way, he is a dragon. He isn't a mummer dragon, just the mummer's. 

Dany said that Viserys was no true dragon.  She was not just talking about his birth.  I expect the same is true of fAegon.  Maybe not obviously mad, but not a dragon either.

[Daeron the Daring]

29 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I do expect bad decisions from Dany.  (Daario and/or Euron will play some role in this).  I don't see her as THE ruler.  I do expect her to go farther than she should for the sake of the IT before she changes course.  And yes, fAegon is a lie, and she is the slayer of lies.

Oh, I do too, but I don't see her going farther than she should for the sake of the IT. Instead finding no way out of the mess created around her (thanks to Aegon and Jon too), amd making huge mistakes en route. Then again, Aegon might be a lie, but he's not the liar himself, that's for sure. Why would he be punished for Varys' and Illyri's lie then? If there ever will be a punishment. Why slaying a lie has to mean the death of anyone? She's slaying liars then, not lies.

29 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Consider also this:  Illyrio sent Dany off into the Dothraki sea expecting her to die.  She survived and hatched 3 dragons.  He sent 3 ships to bring her back to Pentos.  She instead conquered 3 cities.  Illyrio wanted fAegon and Dany to join forces before coming to Westeros.  That did not happen.   I'm noticing a pattern here.  Illyrio's plans for Dany, as he plots to put fAegon on the Iron Throne, are not working out.  

I do not know what Illyrio and Varys are planning right now. I'm not even guessing. But I am sure as hell that they meant Viserys to be king once, otherwise Illyrio wouldn't have visited Varys when Arya found them talking down in the dungeons. It might be that they planned the restauration with Viserys, and then showing up with Aegon claiming his 'birthright'. Intentionally sending Daenerys into her death would've been a pointless decision, and Daenerys, altough not really playing a major part in their plan, was still valuable.

29 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

An excellent reason for believing that the real Aegon must be still alive.  If he is, someone out there may know the truth.

There are other ways to reveal that, if Aegon is a Blackfyre. Ways Varys and Illyrio couldn't count in into their plans. Magic. And if Aegon is not Aegon himself, then he's dead as hell. If YG is fake, why would they keep Aegon alive? As a potential threat?

30 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Also, Illyrio deliberately sent Dany into the Dothraki sea, expecting her to die.  Tyrion knows this, and Dany may be meeting Tyrion soon.  Tyrion is another troublemaker.  Another reason to prejudice her against Illyrio's pet project.

Illyrio is not stupid, to tell Tyrion anything he shouldn't. Makes no harm to Illyrio that he tought Daenerys will not survive the Dothraki Sea. Nor should Daenerys trust him, or at least Quathie says that.

32 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Finding her home, and claiming her birthright, are not necessarily compatible goals.  GRRM has created considerable tension around the question as to whether Dany has a streak of madness or is "the Mad King's Daughter" in spirit as well as by birth.  I expect things to get a whole lot worse before they get better.

Oh no, they aren't. Yet she thinks of Westeros as her home. And reclaiming the IT isn't just because her desire to find her home, but her duty as the last living member of his house. Or so does she think. It's her duty that she'd like to hand over, but can't because she knows about no relative of her who's alive. That's why she will see Aegon as someone to whom she could hand this over. At least in the beginning.

40 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, for starters, he does not come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

It's the PTWP who has to come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys. That does not apply on a head of the dragon, if there is such thing. That doesn't mean that Aegon can't ride a dragon. I wasn't saying he can be TPTWP as a Blackfyre.

42 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

You're quoting Illyrio.

Yes, I do. Wasn't he right?

43 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Dany said that Viserys was no true dragon.  She was not just talking about his birth.  I expect the same is true of fAegon.  Maybe not obviously mad, but not a dragon either.

Dany was talking bullshit back them. Something you can expect from a 14 yo girl. What does being a dragon mean, after all? Not getting burned by molten gold? No Targaryen would resist against that, except Daenerys (neither she necesarilly). We have several Targaryens dying or getting injured in fire.

My main point actually was that Aegon might become a dragonrider, aka a head of the dragon. Imagine what would happen if Aegon claims a dragon and his true identity is only revealed later to Daenerys or anyone else. Being a Blackfyre doesn't mean you can't ride dragons. Being TPTWP doesn't mean you have to or you're going to ride a dragon. Or that you will be THE head of the dragon.

As it may seem cloudy, here's how I imagine this: Daenerys arrives, and gives up her claim, because there's Aegon, who is or isn't married to Arianne at that point (it might work from Arianne's POV, but remember that Aegon knows about Daenerys, so wheter she intends to come to Westeros or not, not sure if he'll get married). Either way, as her only kin left, she will see him as his friend/ally/lover/whateveryouwant, and becomes a dragonrider. Then Jon's true identity reveals itself to her somehow, so does Aegon's (assuming he is a Blackfyre), and makes several bad decisions (and it will lead to chaos, I suppose). Then, somehow, the problem gets solved, without Aegon's death being necesarry (why would it be, after all)?  He gets to know that he's a Blackfyre and decides to be the bad guy afterwards, or what? Believing himself to be a Targaryen, he probably know about the Blackfyres, and currently thinks Targs are the legitimate. Will he change his own POV to think of himself as the rigthful ruler afterwards too? i dunno, man.

[Nathan Stark]

17 hours ago, Egged said:

Can't discount the prophecy as pushing her to see Aegon in good light.

Well, we do have a fair bit of buildup toward a Dany/fAegon showdown, as opposed to an alliance. I do think that having the "mummars dragon" warning in mind will make Dany more suspiscious of fAegon. She's already pretty obsessed with potential enemies and traitors, so mistrusting fAegon seems pretty in-character for her. I also don't see a sequence of events that puts Dany in a position to weigh Bran's story against fAegon's. I think by the time she meets Bran, she'll have already fought fAegon.

[Rondo]

The obligation is on "Aegon" to support Daenerys in whatever she wants to do.  She is the Mother of Dragons and the person whom the Targaryens have been waiting for.  She woke the dragons from stone.  Viserys was the last of the Targaryen kings and Daenerys was his heir.  Aegon, if he is even real, is only half of a Targaryen.  Daenerys is a Targaryen from both parents.  

[Daeron the Daring]

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I do think that having the "mummars dragon" warning in mind will make Dany more suspiscious of fAegon.

Except that the warning about the mummer's dragon isn't really in her mind. She never actually put Quathie's advices into practice. Never. Look at Quentyn. And why did Quathie have to warn Daenerys about him? The other people you can mostly get, but Quentyn? Not really. Either way we have no indication of Daenerys having any toughts about the mummer's dragon from Quathie's riddle, just like in Quentyn's case.

7 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

She's already pretty obsessed with potential enemies and traitors, so mistrusting fAegon seems pretty in-character for her

Obsessed? With who, exactly?

7 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I also don't see a sequence of events that puts Dany in a position to weigh Bran's story against fAegon's

You never know. It might be, given how much time Bran has to spend with BR (I guess), and that Aegon's true identity has to play a role, after all, doesn't it? If it's a cover that's bad from the beginning, wouldn't it be boring to read it?

7 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

think by the time she meets Bran, she'll have already fought fAegon.

We'll see. It might be that Howland Reed will reveal Jon's identity to Daenerys even before anyone else, to prevent any conflict between the two, if such thing could ever happen. Not to mention that everyone would agree, including Daenerys, that a male Targaryen would be handy down there. I think it's pretty simple to imagine that Daenerys will like or symphatise with Aegon at first. After all, we're talking about the first impressions, and how they have no reason to be bad.

[Rose of Red Lake]

9 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Obsessed? With who, exactly?

Just vague "betrayals" and "treasons." It comes up in like every chapter in her thoughts. How could you miss it? Here are just a few.

“All loyalties are uncertain in such times as these,” Dany reminded him. And I shall be betrayed twice more, once for gold and once for love.”

--

“Go, go away forever, both of you, the next time I see your faces I’ll have your traitors’ heads off. She could not say the words, though. They betrayed me. But they saved me. But they lied.”

--

“I went down into the sewers like a rat. For you.”
It might have been kinder if you’d died there. Dany said nothing. There was nothing to say.
“Daenerys,” he said, “I have loved you.”
And there it was. Three treasons will you know. Once for blood and once for gold and once for love.”

--

“A red door?” Missandei was puzzled. “What house is this?”
“No house. It does not matter.” Dany took the younger girl by the hand. “Never lie to me, Missandei. Never betray me.”

--

“It has been so long,” she had said to Ser Barristan, just yesterday. “What if Daario has betrayed me and gone over to my enemies?” Three treasons will you know. “What if he met another woman, some princess of the Lhazarene?”

--

“She sniffed suspiciously at Reznak mo Reznak. I could command the Shavepate to arrest him and put him to the question. Would that forestall the prophecy? Or would some other betrayer take his place? Prophecies are treacherous, she reminded herself, and Reznak may be no more than he appears.”

--

“His bitterness dismayed her, so much so that Dany found herself wondering if the grizzled Pentoshi could be one of her three betrayers. No, he is only an old man, far from home and sick at heart. ”

--

“Other nights she tossed in her bed, imagining that he’d betrayed her, as he had once betrayed his fellow captains in the Stormcrows. He brought me their heads. What if he had taken his company back to Yunkai, to sell her for a pot of gold? He would not do that. Would he? “The Stormcrows too. Send riders after them at once.”

--

“Dany had once eaten a stallion’s heart to give strength to her unborn son … but that had not saved Rhaego when the maegi murdered him in her womb. Three treasons shall you know. She was the first, Jorah was the second, Brown Ben Plumm the third. Was she done with betrayals?”

--

“he had no reason to want her dead. Yet who else could it have been? Reznak, her perfumed seneschal? The Yunkai’i? The Sons of the Harpy?”

[Lord Varys]

On 4/5/2021 at 11:14 AM, corbon said:

No, very much doubt that they do mostly. They just see more than that.

Yes, but why would she? 
Rhaegar failed, died. He was wrong. SHE is tPtwP, the dragons prove it, clearly (in her view - but also in fact in Aemon's view, who agreed with Rhaegar before). Rhaegar was clearly fallible, since he lost and died. He can be part right - she is the 'one more', and part wrong - She, not Aegon is the PtwP.

And thats assuming she knows or cares about prophecy at all. She is the Mother of Dragons after all. Thats real and now and much bigger than some dusty old obscure prophecies that may or may not be relevant in the here and now.

I don't think you are displaying any idea how to get inside someone's head and see things from their POV. 

Daenerys has no idea about the promised prince prophecy so far. Nor does she have a clue who Azor Ahai was or that he might return.

Dany received certain prophecies about herself, but never in context with her being 'a promised prince' - or any other kind of savior, for that matter. She never thinks of herself in this manner, and thus it is actually not very likely that she is going to assume Aegon isn't her nephew when she learns about him because thanks to her vision of Rhaegar and Elia and little Aegon she might actually think this boy is the promised prince and still alive because her brother believed this to be the case and it can only be true if he isn't dead.

It is possible that she might learn about the promised prince prophecy from some source before she learns about Aegon ... and if that were the case then she or the people informing her about the prophecy might connect the same dots as Aemon did - or not. We don't know.

At this point it would be a stretch to assume Daenerys would interpret the dragons as a sign that she is some kind of super special savior person. She could very well think it is her duty to assist Aegon in whatever job the promised prince is supposed to do in Westeros.

For her to think Aegon isn't the promised prince and/or not even Rhaegar's son she would have to get a complete narrative and evidence why this should be the case. Back in ADwD she still thinks very positive about Aegon, thinking that they might have married if Aegon had lived. Once she hears about him she would continue to think along such lines, not that this is some kind of weird conspiracy against her.

On 4/5/2021 at 12:24 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

Oh, I do too, but I don't see her going farther than she should for the sake of the IT. Instead finding no way out of the mess created around her (thanks to Aegon and Jon too), amd making huge mistakes en route. Then again, Aegon might be a lie, but he's not the liar himself, that's for sure. Why would he be punished for Varys' and Illyri's lie then? If there ever will be a punishment. Why slaying a lie has to mean the death of anyone? She's slaying liars then, not lies.

Slaying lies means she is going to reveal the truth and end the lies. There are three lies she is going to slay - the blue-eyed king without a shadow (Stannis) the cloth dragon in front of a cheering crowd (Aegon) and the stone beast breathing shadow fire (unknown; possibly Euron) ... but very few people ever suggested that this is going to mean she will slay Stannis, personally. Or command his execution. People focus much on her doing that to Aegon, but also not so much about the stone beast character.

Metaphorically speaking, Dany has already slain the lies that these three guys are the saviors/promised princes/whatever simply by hatching the dragon eggs and being who she is. It's like the true messiah proving wrong the fakes simply by existing/doing what he does, without actually ever engaging the frauds in a direct confrontation.

And I expect that all three lies from the prophecy will eventually declare that they are the savior. Stannis has already done it, Aegon will do it when he has the throne and things get worse because people will remember what his father believed about him, and the stone beast will do a similar thing.

[Daeron the Daring]

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

All loyalties are uncertain in such times as these,” Dany reminded him. And I shall be betrayed twice more, once for gold and once for love.”

When it comes to talk about loyalty, is it obsession to remember what the Undead told her about betrayal?  Obsession and regularly thinking of something are two different things. How couldn't she think of treason when she receives it all the time, and is prophecied to suffer more betrayals? That's not obsession. Obsession would mean that she thinks of it so much that it's mentally unhealthy. Didn't the Undead told her she will be betrayed? Doesn't Quathie guides him in fucking riddles to evade betrayers and people she shouldn't trust? How fo se expect her not to think of that, especially regarding someone who betrayed her or might do it. This is part of her initial conflict, of her arc. Claiming that Daenerys is obsessed with treasons is like claiming that Jon Snow is obsessed with Arya due to always thinking of her. How couldn't he think of her when Melisandre knocks on his door all the time with a solution or vision of him getting her sister back? Hoe couldn't she think of treason when she receives so much of it and is told to receive even more?

We're talking here about obsession, and that's not obsession.

[Daeron the Daring]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Slaying lies means she is going to reveal the truth and end the lies. There are three lies she is going to slay - the blue-eyed king without a shadow (Stannis) the cloth dragon in front of a cheering crowd (Aegon) and the stone beast breathing shadow fire (unknown; possibly Euron) ... but very few people ever suggested that this is going to mean she will slay Stannis, personally. Or command his execution. People focus much on her doing that to Aegon, but also not so much about the stone beast character.

Oh, I'm not the one claiming it. Some say she'll have to kill him if his true identity reveals itself. Some say she's going to side against him because she wants the rulership for herself (I mean what?). I am neither of these. A lie's presence is pointless if noone believes it. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And I expect that all three lies from the prophecy will eventually declare that they are the savior. Stannis has already done it, Aegon will do it when he has the throne and things get worse because people will remember what his father believed about him, and the stone beast will do a similar thing.

I like this idea. Never heard before.

[Egged]

Betrayal for love could be Aegon+Arianne in her eyes.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Oh, I'm not the one claiming it. Some say she'll have to kill him if his true identity reveals itself. Some say she's going to side against him because she wants the rulership for herself (I mean what?). I am neither of these. A lie's presence is pointless if noone believes it.

I like this idea. Never heard before.

The idea is based on the fact that magic and prophecy are not likely to give two cents about vague Westerosi succession laws and legal prattle ... and also not about who is whose biological father, etc. The Slayer of Lies prophecy must refer to Dany's special magical role ... and the fact that Stannis, Aegon, and the stone beast are not her. It wouldn't refer to the Iron Throne, true parentage, etc. but the savior thing.

That Aegon is going to play the promised prince card eventually is already foreshadowed in Sam's last chapter in AFfC where he again stresses that Rhaegar's little son wasn't the savior according to Maester Aemon's interpretation, reminding the reader that there are people who believed Aegon could be this guy. And now Aegon seems to be back, so people will want him to save them when they realize they need a savior. And that might be the case shortly after Aegon has taken the Iron Throne.

The whole Slayer of Lies thing sets up villains or - at least - failures. People whose actions make the suffering of Westeros worse, not better, even if their intentions are good.

[Egged]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea is based on the fact that magic and prophecy are not likely to give two cents about vague Westerosi succession laws and legal prattle ... and also not about who is whose biological father, etc. The Slayer of Lies prophecy must refer to Dany's special magical role ... and the fact that Stannis, Aegon, and the stone beast are not her. It wouldn't refer to the Iron Throne, true parentage, etc. but the savior thing.

That Aegon is going to play the promised prince card eventually is already foreshadowed in Sam's last chapter in AFfC where he again stresses that Rhaegar's little son wasn't the savior according to Maester Aemon's interpretation, reminding the reader that there are people who believed Aegon could be this guy. And now Aegon seems to be back, so people will want him to save them when they realize they need a savior. And that might be the case shortly after Aegon has taken the Iron Throne.

The whole Slayer of Lies thing sets up villains or - at least - failures. People whose actions make the suffering of Westeros worse, not better, even if their intentions are good.

Who says "Slayer of lies" is literally a prophecy? It is just something she hears about her. Who said it really? It would only mean that from their perspective there are lies should would attack. The lies could have been the warlocks themselves, with Quaithe whispering to her in that moment to awaken the dragon so to speak, and kill the warlocks, which is what she does. There is no "slayer of lies" prophecy known that can be ascribed to anyone so there is absolutely no way to affirm or infirm that it is or isn't about lines of succession and what not, it's all a matter of who was pushing that in her head.

This caught my attention:

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"No," lied Sam. Jon had made it a command. "I went beyond the Wall and fought in battles. They call me Sam the Slayer." He did not know why he said it. The words just tumbled out.

Sam the Slayer. Sam the liar? Could Sam ever become a "liar" in Daenerys' eyes? He could come to know important things at the Citadel that she wouldn't accept.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea is based on the fact that magic and prophecy are not likely to give two cents about vague Westerosi succession laws and legal prattle ... and also not about who is whose biological father, etc. The Slayer of Lies prophecy must refer to Dany's special magical role ... and the fact that Stannis, Aegon, and the stone beast are not her. It wouldn't refer to the Iron Throne, true parentage, etc. but the savior thing.

When Daenerys was in the HotU, the Undying were pretty much orientated on Daenerys's fate (altough they wanted to keep her there after all). So they've presented what roles Daenerys will fulfill (With the slayer of lies things), and what big lifechanging events (to her) will occur in her future. The point of the meeting with the Undying is that they tell and prophecise her story/life, not necesarilly on a global level, unlike the other parts (rooms) of the building, where she sees many things, but about other people (altough those people have an effect on her life, but those are pretty much matter on a global level: the Red Wedding, Jon's true heritage...) That's why I always tought that her future role as "the slayer of lies" does only matter to her on a personal level, just like the treasons she suffers/is about to suffer.

However, your suggestion that the entire Slayer of Lies role is just as big and global as the other visions she saw back then got me thinking. I am not convinced, but you have me thinking on this.

[John Suburbs]

On 4/4/2021 at 7:19 PM, Egged said:

I see a lot of people immediately assume that Daenerys will be all angry at Aegon and what not and want him dead.

But do people forget this?

She is the ONE person in the world who is in a position to support Aegon above all others: she believes she saw her brother Rhaegar literally prophesize that he would be KING, and he looked to Daenerys and said "There must be one more, the dragon has three heads."

In this vision and her very clear memory of it, Rhaegar bestows Aegon AND Daenerys as part of the dragon.

Aegon is currently on a path to fall for Arianne. Daenerys on the other hand wouldn't want him dead, she would want him to know that he is "The prince that was promised" and that together they are the dragon. She isn't going to want to kill him. And people could claim that he must surely be a Blackfyre, they have nothing to prove it, while she has the vision of her brother.

Obviously, later on she may come to realize that Jon is TPTWP and that the Song of Ice and Fire was is, as it would make it more obvious due to his lineage. But until then, she has very personal reasons to believe Aegon is NOT someone that must die, in fact she must help him, they belong together, as she saw Rhaegar claim in her vision. She wouldn't be angry at him for marrying Arianne for example, she would just want to tell him what SHE knows, to bring him on the right path, to fulfill the prophecy Rhaegar saw.

Only if she believes that this person is really Aegon. The dragons might be able to help her determine that.

[Daeron the Daring]

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Only if she believes that this person is really Aegon.

So tell me, why wouldn't she? First, she'll get to know that there's somebody who claims to be Aegon. Then her vision about Rhaegar might come into her mind, and that Rhaegar said he's TPTWP. And then she might figure out that it actually makes sense (because it really does from her point of view), like "here's this guy who might be Aegon, and my brother also said this guy will be TPTWP, whatever that means. It makes sense. Coincidence? I think not!" But in the end it will turn out to be a coincidence. (From her POV) The unlikely will happen. Not to mention that she might think at that point that she's over those betrayals and lies.

[Mister Smikes]

41 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So tell me, why wouldn't she? First, she'll get to know that there's somebody who claims to be Aegon. Then her vision about Rhaegar might come into her mind, and that Rhaegar said he's TPTWP. And then she might figure out that it actually makes sense (because it really does from her point of view), like "here's this guy who might be Aegon, and my brother also said this guy will be TPTWP, whatever that means. It makes sense. Coincidence? I think not!" But in the end it will turn out to be a coincidence. (From her POV) The unlikely will happen. Not to mention that she might think at that point that she's over those betrayals and lies.

Maybe maybe maybe.  But I just don't think it's going to work out.  Dany is more than capable of being suspicious ... for all the reasons the rest of us are suspicious.  Illyrio, the guy who sold her to a barbarian in order to get her and her brother out of the way, is now plotting to put some random lad on the Iron Throne with the aid of the Blackfyre-aligned Golden Company and a mysterious "Septa" mother who is from somewhere near Norvos and identifies as a merchant's daughter.   And if these suspicious thoughts don't enter her head on her own, some trouble-making adviser (Tyrion? Daario?  Euron?) will put them into her head for her.

Illyrio's plan (after Dany hatched dragons) was for fAegon and Dany to be allies, but already events are moving farther from that, rather than closer.  

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Egged said:

Who says "Slayer of lies" is literally a prophecy? It is just something she hears about her. Who said it really? It would only mean that from their perspective there are lies should would attack. The lies could have been the warlocks themselves, with Quaithe whispering to her in that moment to awaken the dragon so to speak, and kill the warlocks, which is what she does. There is no "slayer of lies" prophecy known that can be ascribed to anyone so there is absolutely no way to affirm or infirm that it is or isn't about lines of succession and what not, it's all a matter of who was pushing that in her head.

It is obviously a prophecy since it is part of the cycles of triplet prophecies the Undying give her.

The Undying certainly do make those prophecies to distract Daenerys from what they actually want to do to her, of course. But those prophecies are accurate as the vision about the Mhysa scene already proved ... not to mention the image of Stannis, the flashback to Dany's first wedding night in the Dothraki Sea, etc.

It is also quite clear that Daenerys is the Slayer of Lies, just as she is the Daughter of Death and the Bride of Fire.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

When Daenerys was in the HotU, the Undying were pretty much orientated on Daenerys's fate (altough they wanted to keep her there after all). So they've presented what roles Daenerys will fulfill (With the slayer of lies things), and what big lifechanging events (to her) will occur in her future. The point of the meeting with the Undying is that they tell and prophecise her story/life, not necesarilly on a global level, unlike the other parts (rooms) of the building, where she sees many things, but about other people (altough those people have an effect on her life, but those are pretty much matter on a global level: the Red Wedding, Jon's true heritage...) That's why I always tought that her future role as "the slayer of lies" does only matter to her on a personal level, just like the treasons she suffers/is about to suffer.

Many of the images Dany sees earlier also do have a connection to her. The Red Wedding might be a difference, but chances are not that bad that she might be involved in some cleaning up work there, helping the Starks and others to get even with the Lannisters and Freys and Boltons, etc. for what they did.

The other general visions are about Westeros being ravaged by false kings (the girl ravaged by the dwarfs), Dany's father and Rossart talking about the wildfire plot, and Rhaegar & Elia with Aegon. All that is connected to Daenerys in some way.

The personal prophecies and visions she gets later are all about her destiny, in part in connection with other people, in part about her private life.

The hint about Jon's true heritage - the blue flower growing at the Wall - is part of the triplet of visions about Daenerys as Bride of Fire, by the way.

The three treasons might also, in part, be political, but there we got no visions. The three lies to be slain are likely very much political, whereas the three husbands from the Bride of Fire triplets might not be very political, the first one is Drogo, the second one the unclear guy on the ship, the third one Jon Snow as the blue flower. Hizdahr and Daario seem to be both absent from those prophecies.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

However, your suggestion that the entire Slayer of Lies role is just as big and global as the other visions she saw back then got me thinking. I am not convinced, but you have me thinking on this.

The problem is thinking that those prophecies give a damn about who is 'the rightful king' or 'a Targaryen in name only', etc. when the entire reason Dany and the dragons are special on a magical level has to do with the Others and the danger they pose, not legal issues or appearances.

There is a reason why Stannis is one of the lies and not, say, Robb or Joffrey or Tommen or Balon.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Dany is more than capable of being suspicious ... for all the reasons the rest of us are suspicious.

Yea, we heard the pros and the contras too. No need to hear it again, I guess.

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Illyrio, the guy who sold her to a barbarian in order to get her and her brother out of the way, is now plotting to put some random lad on the Iron Throne with the aid of the Blackfyre-aligned Golden Company and a mysterious "Septa" mother who is from somewhere near Norvos and identifies as a merchant's daughter.

Maybe, but just maybe, Varys and Illyrio have a plan. Altough they might be dumb enough to serve Daenerys themselves as raw meat awaiting to be roasted by dragonfire. After all, that's the vibe these two give us, isn't it?

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

And if these suspicious thoughts don't enter her head on her own, some trouble-making adviser (Tyrion? Daario?  Euron?) will put them into her head for her.

The point of lying is hiding the truth. If the lie never work out, was it ever worth including? I think not. 

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Illyrio's plan (after Dany hatched dragons) was for fAegon and Dany to be allies, but already events are moving farther from that, rather than closer.  

Agreed. But they might get close resolving that. That of course could only happen if Aegon isn't burned to ash on Daenerys' second day in Westeros.  

I assume it will be exciting if Daenerys meets Aegon, and she sends him straight to jail. No need for excitement from action, human feelings, conspiring, hidden identities gettin revealed, George, give this pretender hell for being alive (????).