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Do people forget that Daenerys heard Rhaegar say that Aegon is the Prince who was promised?

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On 4/4/2021 at 9:43 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Yes, Rhaegar did seem to be looking at Dany when he said 'there must be one more".

However, Rhaegar's idea seemed to be that the 3 heads of the dragon would be his own 3 children.   He had already named his first two children after the original Aegon and one of his two sisters.    Hence, once it became clear that Elia could have no more children, he decided it was his holy mission to find teenagers to fool around with.  This was the nonsense that got 2 Starks burned alive and provoked Robert's Rebellion.

Of course, we can resolve this conflict by invoking R+L=D or R+A=D.

The nonsense that got 2 Starks burned alive was that one of those soon-to-be charcoaled Starks did something ridiculously treasonous.

The nonsense that provoked Robert's Rebellion was Aerys's foolish command to Jon Arryn.

Everything prior to that remained negotiable.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Maybe, but just maybe, Varys and Illyrio have a plan.

I'm sure they do, tho' the details are a bit fuzzy.  But the best laid plains of spiders and sea cows aft gang agley.

Quote

The point of lying is hiding the truth. If the lie never work out, was it ever worth including? I think not. 

Dany isn't just anyone.   She has a dog in the fight, and dragons in the fight to boot.  Sure, there are many people, who, for their own reasons, would vastly prefer fAegon to Cersei Lannister; and who don't have any particularly strong interest in looking too closely at his identity.And fAegon did not just show up in Westeros announcing:  "Hey Guys, I'm Rhaegar's son -- just trust me and make me king."  He showed up with an army, and he conquered Storm's End.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Dany isn't just anyone.   She has a dog in the fight, and dragons in the fight to boot.  Sure, there are many people, who, for their own reasons, would vastly prefer fAegon to Cersei Lannister; and who don't have any particularly strong interest in looking too closely at his identity.And fAegon did not just show up in Westeros announcing:  "Hey Guys, I'm Rhaegar's son -- just trust me and make me king."  He showed up with an army, and he conquered Storm's End.

Not sure why this is relevant when it comes to how the lie will and should work. 

But after all, why Aegon can't fit into Daenerys' story? It can, that's why it will, for some time. I just don't get it. We're over the suggestion that she may see him a liar or usurper. Tell me, why would Daenerys initially hate on his own nephew? After all, this is about finding a common goal. Can't two Targaryens have one? Come one. It'd not hard to imagine.

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Surely Aemon's delirious ramblings in his deathbed will reach Dany via Marwyn and she will readily accept that she is the prince that was promised.

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3 hours ago, Mithras said:

Surely Aemon's delirious ramblings in his deathbed will reach Dany via Marwyn and she will readily accept that she is the prince that was promised.

Will she? She knows nothing about 'The song of Ice and Fire' or what role TPTWP is supposed to fulfill. What can Marwyn tell her exactly? Wasn't Marwyn who trained MMD? Moqorro would know more and better, but I'm not sure how much influence the guy will and could gain over her.

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2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Will she? She knows nothing about 'The song of Ice and Fire' or what role TPTWP is supposed to fulfill. What can Marwyn tell her exactly? Wasn't Marwyn who trained MMD? Moqorro would know more and better, but I'm not sure how much influence the guy will and could gain over her.

I think it is pretty essential for the ending that Dany should get caught up in some savior hype. That will start with the Dothraki in TWoW and then the Red Temple of Volantis will take over. By the time she comes to Westeros, she will fully embrace this narrative. It will serve as the major justification for her campaign in the conquest of Westeros. 

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5 hours ago, Mithras said:

Surely Aemon's delirious ramblings in his deathbed will reach Dany via Marwyn and she will readily accept that she is the prince that was promised.

He ends the narrative raving like a looney and stuffed in a barrel of rum. The whole context of it is sketchy.

Please, let Dany believe she's the savior with a grand destiny. That always works out so well for characters in asoiaf  :skull emoji:

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7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not sure why this is relevant when it comes to how the lie will and should work. 

But after all, why Aegon can't fit into Daenerys' story? It can, that's why it will, for some time. I just don't get it. We're over the suggestion that she may see him a liar or usurper. Tell me, why would Daenerys initially hate on his own nephew? After all, this is about finding a common goal. Can't two Targaryens have one? Come one. It'd not hard to imagine.

I'm not arguing that the lie could not in theory work on Dany.  I'm saying, again, that the best laid plans of spiders and sea cows aft gang agley.  Hard to imagine?  No.  But the opposite is not hard to imagine either.  And between the two speculations, I see one as more probably than the other based on my sense of where the story is going.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Will she? She knows nothing about 'The song of Ice and Fire' or what role TPTWP is supposed to fulfill. What can Marwyn tell her exactly? Wasn't Marwyn who trained MMD? Moqorro would know more and better, but I'm not sure how much influence the guy will and could gain over her.

Both Marwyn and MMD are Shiera Seastar's ex-apprentices. All three of them were present in Drogo's tent when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego (Marwyn said then - Rhaegar was the last dragon). Marwyn personally knew Rhaegar and was his confidant. He knows all about the prophecy, from Rhaegar, maester Aemon and Shiera/Quaithe, and also he have read it from the direct source - "The Book of Signs and Portents" written by Daenys the Dreamer, in which she recorded all her prophecies - the Doom of Valyria, the rebirth of the dragons (Egg said to Dunk that King Daeron have read about it in an ancient book, that's the same book, reading which Rhaegar decided that he has to become a warrior), TPTWP, etc.

Quaithe warned Dany about Tyrion, Victarion, Moqorro, Quentyn, fAegon and septa Lemore/the Perfumed Seneschal. Marwyn is the only one whom she didn't mentioned, that's because he is one of her agents.

Edited by Megorova

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12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Both Marwyn and MMD are Shiera Seastar's ex-apprentices. All three of them were present in Drogo's tent when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego (Marwyn said then - Rhaegar was the last dragon). Marwyn personally knew Rhaegar and was his confidant. He knows all about the prophecy, from Rhaegar, maester Aemon and Shiera/Quaithe, and also he have read it from the direct source - "The Book of Signs and Portents" written by Daenys the Dreamer, in which she recorded all her prophecies - the Doom of Valyria, the rebirth of the dragons (Egg said to Dunk that King Daeron have read about it in an ancient book, that's the same book, reading which Rhaegar decided that he has to become a warrior), TPTWP, etc.

Quaithe warned Dany about Tyrion, Victarion, Moqorro, Quentyn, fAegon and septa Lemore/the Perfumed Seneschal. Marwyn is the only one whom she didn't mentioned, that's because he is one of her agents.

Again, please, don't write something down for a second time, unless someone does care about it. You've posted your suggestions so many times that it's annoying to some and pointless too.

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11 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Again, please, don't write something down for a second time, unless someone does care about it. You've posted your suggestions so many times that it's annoying to some and pointless too.

You don't own this forum.

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Marwyn won't feed any delusions on Dany's part about her being a super conqueror. He will tell her about the Others and the wights and the reason the dragons came back ... so they could be deployed against the ice demons and their undead hordes. Not to mention that he is actually skeptical about Aemon's interpretation, meaning he may not even bother the little girl with prophecy nonsense, and rather tell her that there are ice demons in Westeros her dragons could, possibly, help to destroy.

The Dothraki may want Dany to help them conquer Essos, but that's not her being 'a savior'.

The red priests do have a different interpretation of their prophecy stuff ... but Daenerys doesn't really need them or their support, especially not when she already has the Dothraki.

Only Marwyn is likely to push Dany to go to Westeros to fulfill her destiny there - the Volantene followers of R'hllor and the Dothraki both are not going to want her to go some savage backwater continent and play with the feudal lords there.

In light of all that Daenerys may very well think Aegon being alive means he is this promised prince her brother thought him to be. She could even believe her role in the prophecy only was to give Aegon the dragon he needed to fulfill his prophecy. After all, the promise talks about a promised prince, not a princess, and Daenerys is not just a woman but the youngest sibling in her family. She wasn't fed the idea she should rule or do special things. She only came into her own because she had to, because everybody died.

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I dont see her listening to Marwyn. She will remember his name and isn't going to trust him because of his ties to Mirri.

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She wasn't fed the idea she should rule or do special things

Pretty sure Viserys fed her Targaryen exceptionalism every hour of the goddamn day.

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4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont see her listening to Marwyn. She will remember his name and isn't going to trust him because of his ties to Mirri.

Exactly.

4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Pretty sure Viserys fed her Targaryen exceptionalism every hour of the goddamn day.

I think Lord Varys meant that Daenerys never had the task of retaking the Iron Throne before Viserys died. She was told how 'special' they are (that their ancestors ruled Westeros, rode dragons and married their own sisters and brothers), but she always tought she'll marry Viserys one day and nothing more. Up until he gave her to Drogo.

On the other hand, Aegon is completely different from her on this, since he was told from the very beginning that he'll retake the IT, and was taught how to be king one day.

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont see her listening to Marwyn. She will remember his name and isn't going to trust him because of his ties to Mirri.

If she doesn't, she will definitely never believe she and not her nephew Aegon is the promised prince. Marwyn is the only guy who could tell her that. And she will listen to him to a point, or else the entire character has no point. In fact, chances are very high that he will be the guy who convinces her to go to Westeros. Nobody else could.

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Pretty sure Viserys fed her Targaryen exceptionalism every hour of the goddamn day.

Exceptionalism preached by stupid impoverished fellow isn't all that convincing, no?

My point was that Dany - unlike, say, Rhaenyra (or any pampered princess who grew up in a castle) - isn't obsessed with the idea that she *has to rule*. She only took up the torch of House Targaryen after all all her men - even her unborn son - were dead. She doesn't want this, isn't fed up with the idea, unlike Rhaenyra, that she is the rightful heir to the throne, etc.

While Dany isn't in Westeros yet, hasn't even made the decision if and when to go there, she can decide to call it a day and have Aegon play with the savages there and sit that ugly iron chair. And if you check her personality then this actually should be her original intention. She doesn't need that Westerosi shit for her ego, it is a burden she had to take because her stupid father and brothers lost what the family owned ... and because the usurpers didn't allow her to live in peace in exile.

The idea that Aegon being there results in her deciding immediately: THIS CANNOT BE, HE MUST BE AN EVIL IMPOSTER!' just isn't very likely. She should be happy she still has more family, she should look forward to eventually marry her nephew and rule jointly with him like the Conqueror and his sister-wives, she might even enjoy the idea that she doesn't have a special destiny and the Aegon fellow has to do the promised prince stuff.

She could, perhaps, even send Aegon one of her dragons so he can do his savior thing, whereas she remains with the Dothraki or her other people.

There have to be a lot of arguments and things happening for her to decide that Westeros is the place she has to go ... especially since that has to happen soon, despite the fact that she will soon have the power to conquer most of Essos. Anybody in that position would not throw that away for a backwater continent she never even saw.

The Targaryens are Valyrian dragonlords, their ultimate roots are in Essos, not Westeros. That was just a short appendix to their history.

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22 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So tell me, why wouldn't she? First, she'll get to know that there's somebody who claims to be Aegon. Then her vision about Rhaegar might come into her mind, and that Rhaegar said he's TPTWP. And then she might figure out that it actually makes sense (because it really does from her point of view), like "here's this guy who might be Aegon, and my brother also said this guy will be TPTWP, whatever that means. It makes sense. Coincidence? I think not!" But in the end it will turn out to be a coincidence. (From her POV) The unlikely will happen. Not to mention that she might think at that point that she's over those betrayals and lies.

The Tyrells don't believe it. Its doubtful that Stannis will either. Anyone vying for the Iron Throne would have reason to doubt the veracity of this boy who comes out of nowhere claiming to be Aegon. And if the dragons don't warm up to him, that's a pretty good clue that he's not the ptwp, or even a Targaryen.

And remember, Aegon is Illyrio's creation. Dany didn't trust Illyrio from the start when he said he was going to put Viserys on the throne. Now Illyrio has some other person he's trying to crown? Lot's of reasons for Dany to be suspicious here.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The Tyrells don't believe it. Its doubtful that Stannis will either.

I tought we're talking about Daenerys here.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Anyone vying for the Iron Throne would have reason to doubt the veracity of this boy who comes out of nowhere claiming to be Aegon.

Well, the question is, do you think Daenerys is vying for the IT the way, let's say, Renly did (If you do, you misunderstand her character)? If not, why would she be vying for it against her only family left?

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And if the dragons don't warm up to him, that's a pretty good clue that he's not the ptwp, or even a Targaryen.

We have dragonriders with so little drop of Targaryen blood that any Blackfyre descendancy would pretty much grant him the ability to tame one. Not to mention that even Quentyn was about to tame Rhaegal, but Viserion burned him (not Rhaegal). After all, the dragons even feel Brown Ben's Targaryen descendancy.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And remember, Aegon is Illyrio's creation. Dany didn't trust Illyrio from the start when he said he was going to put Viserys on the throne. Now Illyrio has some other person he's trying to crown? Lot's of reasons for Dany to be suspicious here.

I cannot say I know what Illyrio and Varys are planning. But I'm sure all those years of preparation (whatever they want) won't end in Aegon's death in the very beginning only for Daenerys having a bad first impression about his own nephew, whom he eventually saw in a vision where his brother Rhaegar (who she admires) claimed that this guy is TPTWP.

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1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If not, why would she be vying for it against her only family left?

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If she doesn't, she will definitely never believe she and not her nephew Aegon is the promised prince. Marwyn is the only guy who could tell her that. And she will listen to him to a point, or else the entire character has no point. In fact, chances are very high that he will be the guy who convinces her to go to Westeros. Nobody else could.

She's already decided to go. "You are a queen. In Westeros." When she says she has to remember who she is, this is the same thoughts she had in Book 1. She thinks staying in Meereen means she's forgetting it.

If Dany can only be convinced to do the right thing by someone blowing smoke up her ass about her being a prophecized savior, well... that's pathetic.

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Posted (edited)

She likely misheard "The Prince that was pomaced" as in Gregor Clegane crushing his head.

Edited by Eltharion21

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