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Do people forget that Daenerys heard Rhaegar say that Aegon is the Prince who was promised?


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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She's already decided to go. "You are a queen. In Westeros." When she says she has to remember who she is, this is the same thoughts she had in Book 1. She thinks staying in Meereen means she's forgetting it.

If Dany can only be convinced to do the right thing by someone blowing smoke up her ass about her being a prophecized savior, well... that's pathetic.

Westeros isn't in the Dothraki Sea the last time I looked. Of course, she will eventually find the means there to finally move to Westeros, but the Dothraki are not a band of sycophants who want to follow some blond child to a faraway place. And neither do any of Dany's other Essosi friends and allies want to go there. They might still accompany her if they must and she really goes, but most of them should counsel her to postpone that thing indefinitely or at least until next spring. Why invade a continent in winter?

For Dany, Westeros is a place where she is supposed to go because, as the last Targaryen, this is her place. That's why her visions use it against her wish to stay in Meereen ... but she will be free of that burden - or could be free of that burden - if there is another Targaryen in Aegon who avenges House Targaryen on the Westerosi traitors. Then this duty wouldn't fall to her. She would be off the hook again, as she tried to be in Meereen, meaning she could stay with the Dothraki if she liked that, conquer Essos, fly around with her dragon, get herself laid as often as she wants, or whatever else she might think of.

The news about Aegon could also trigger Dany's desire to meet and help Aegon - which is what Tyrion told Aegon him invading without Dany would do (and he could be right there). The idea that she would just think that he cannot be real and must be some evil guy is just not very well founded at that point. She doesn't have any family left as far as she knows, so the prospect of finding a nephew she thought she lost forever should actually intrigue her, not antagonize her.

We also expect that Arya and Sansa and Jon won't conclude that the Bran and Rickon they might eventually hear about are evil imposters but rather actually the family they thought they lost forever.

I mean, Dany even bought the idea that Doran Martell was on her side with his secret marriage pact and all. She wasn't pissed that they kept it from her and Viserys. When she learns that Illyrio had Rhaegar's son she could just as well believe he had the best interest of Aegon at heart when he kept him apart from Viserys' foolish schemes as long as possible because actively including Aegon could have meant that Aegon went down the same way as Viserys.

For her to believe that the Aegon fellow is her enemy there has to happen a lot of stuff. Even if he were fake he would only be her enemy if he refused to marry her and share his rule with her and/or directly attacked her.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Westeros isn't in the Dothraki Sea the last time I looked. Of course, she will eventually find the means there to finally move to Westeros, 

But I'm saying, she has already decided to go, it's in those last pages of Dance. She says to herself that she stayed in Meereen to plant trees, but that dragons don't do this, that she's a queen in Westeros instead, and she lingered too long. 

Even Adam Feldman says "But now she wants to go to Westeros" in his concluding, summative paragraph, and we know what George said about his essays. 

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but the Dothraki are not a band of sycophants who want to follow some blond child to a faraway place.

They kind of are a band of sycophants, they make blood oaths to one dude, believe in a Master Hitler Khal to take over the world, and 30k of them do whatever one dude says...

One of Dany's tasks in Winds is to convince them to follow her and fuck shit up in Westeros for her. Because again she already has made the decision to abandon Meereen and go seek her destiny in Westeros. There's no need for Marwin to do that. Maybe he tries to convince her to go North though.

And your faith in Marwin is naive. He is fully aware that prophecies can bite you in the cunt, but he goes to meddle in them anyway? He also says sketchy stuff, about not trusting him too much. There has to be an unexpected wrinkle here.

Do you really believe Dany gets told she's the prophecized savior, becomes the savior, and that's it? No twist whatsoever??????????

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A line I think most people don't seem to recall.

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The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

It shouldn't need debate what Dany is saying here. She believes that there are two other people in the world, males, who will ride her (other) dragons and that they will all be able to trust each other and it'll be super awesome and she'll be happy and unicorns and rainbows.

There's a few points in this, the first is it is showing her ignorance and some idiocy. If she had bothered to read some of those dragon books maybe she'd better understand that assuming trustworthiness from other dragon riders is a dangerous absurd notion. That is going to cost her.

The second point is that yes she will be inclined towards Aegon at the first, I can't see any reason, besides his legitimacy, that she wouldn't consider he's one of these 2 men and give him a chance to ride a dragon. That's what this line is seeding, her initial warmth towards Aegon.

It is of course all going to go sour and become a big bash up, but at the start she's going to be pretty happy and excited by the prospect of Aegon.

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51 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

There's a few points in this, the first is it is showing her ignorance and some idiocy. If she had bothered to read some of those dragon books maybe she'd better understand that assuming trustworthiness from other dragon riders is a dangerous absurd notion. That is going to cost her.

Dragons were dancing when two were fighting over the Throne (Maegor-Aegon, Aegon-Rhaenyra). The point Daenerys makes with her fairy dream is that she doesn't really have anyone to trust in, but she's sure that she could trust in her own blood, if she ever finds one. And she wants to. Would such a conflict have to end in battle? Not sure why. Maybe something else will destroy her imagined fairytale.

That's why some argue that she will find no problem with Aegon at first. But to do so later, she'll need a serious reason. He can still be a Targaryen, even if he's not TPTWP. And he can ride a dragon even if he's a Blackyre. But can he be a head of the dragon? He can, I think. But it'll be him who destorys the balance between them. Not sure why, I don't write these novels.

If he does accept his Blackfyre heritage, will that change him so dramatically that he'll turn against Daenerys just because she's a Targaryen? Either way, neither a conflict between them has to end in his death. We'll see.

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6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And she wants to. Would such a conflict have to end in battle? Not sure why. Maybe something else will destroy her imagined fairytale.That's why some argue that she will find no problem with Aegon at first. But to do so later, she'll need a serious reason. He can still be a Targaryen, even if he's not TPTWP. And he can ride a dragon even if he's a Blackyre. But can he be a head of the dragon? He can, I think. But it'll be him who destorys the balance between them. Not sure why, I don't write these novels.

The plot is another test for Dany. Does she care more about finding a lost family member, or the throne? If the former, she would just shrug and say, "you can have it, I'm just glad I'm not alone anymore." :wub:

Do you see Dany doing that?

Say Aegon is already married and invites Dany to be his 2nd wife - a  choice, a temptation. A relatively bloodless route to the throne and a Targaryen dynasty restored.

Dany rejecting this because she wants the throne on her conditions, is very likely and also, understandable. But she would have still made a choice toward violence when a less violent route was presented, and Aegon wouldn't have forced her or anything, he would have just gotten there first and made alliances first, and offered her one, but she probably won't like it. The saying isn't, "wherever the dragons danced the people died but Dany was never at fault"

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15 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But I'm saying, she has already decided to go, it's in those last pages of Dance. She says to herself that she stayed in Meereen to plant trees, but that dragons don't do this, that she's a queen in Westeros instead, and she lingered too long. 

Even Adam Feldman says "But now she wants to go to Westeros" in his concluding, summative paragraph, and we know what George said about his essays.

So what? She doesn't mount Drogon at the end of ADwD to fly to Westeros. She returns to the Dothraki ... and her going there will affect her future decision-making process just as going to Astapor did. Back when she left Qarth she also wanted to go to Westeros, eventually, no? But so far she did not.

Feldman's essay are actually wrong about most of Dany's story in Meereen. The slavers didn't want peace with her, they wanted to destroy her, etc. He is right about what George wanted to accomplish with this intricate setting, though.

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They kind of are a band of sycophants, they make blood oaths to one dude, believe in a Master Hitler Khal to take over the world, and 30k of them do whatever one dude says...

As a culture, though, they are Essosi. They do not want to cross the great salt sea. And the Stallion Who Mounts the World is their religious figure. They have invented him, they decide what they want from him, just as the Jews, say, decided what they want from their messiah. If the signs and portents and magic and wise women and whatnot proclaim Daenerys the Stallion then this isn't turning them all into mindless drones. They are going to want their Stallion to give them what's prophesied, not what the Stallion herself might personally want.

And the Stallion supposedly unites all the Dothraki and conquers the world for them. It is not prophesied that they follow him to another country the Dothraki do not care for at all.

In that sense: Dany taking over the Dothraki is actually going to increase the likelihood that she is not going to rush to Westeros soon, because her new people will not want to go there. They might accompany her eventually, but before that she will give them at least part of what the Stallion is supposed to give them. Else dragon or not, they are just going to cut her throat or enslave her.

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One of Dany's tasks in Winds is to convince them to follow her and fuck shit up in Westeros for her. Because again she already has made the decision to abandon Meereen and go seek her destiny in Westeros. There's no need for Marwin to do that. Maybe he tries to convince her to go North though.

Again, Daenerys has made the decision to go to Westeros rather often in those books. All she decided at the end of ADwD is that staying/returning to Meereen is wrong and that she should continue to Westeros. But her decision to go to the Dothraki is another side track. It isn't the road to Westeros.

For the topic at hand Marwyn is obviously crucial because Daenerys has no idea about the contents of this promised prince prophecy nor does she view herself as this person. Not even the potentiality that she and not Aegon might be that person has come up so far. Marwyn is the only guy en route to her who knows about the prophecy and the Others, so he clearly will be the guy to convince her that both concepts are a thing. If not, then Daenerys will never know about any of that, and possibly won't go to Westeros at all.

Or not in time to get there before the series is over.

The problem isn't whether she wants to (eventually) go there or not. The problem is that it actually makes little sense to invade a foreign continent in the middle of what could be a years-long winter. That would be just madness from a strategic viewpoint, and Dany's people are not madmen.

Daenerys has the power to repeat the Conquest of Aegon the Conqueror. She is in no rush if we don't make the threat of the Others part of the equation. Why should she care whether Euron or Aegon or Stannis rule for another fortnight or a couple of years? Her dragons and her huge armies can destroy them all. And the dragons will only grow larger if she were to wait a decade or so. She herself is only fifteen, so why not wait until she is in her early twenties like Aegon I was when he conquered Westeros? She is literally in no rush.

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And your faith in Marwin is naive. He is fully aware that prophecies can bite you in the cunt, but he goes to meddle in them anyway? He also says sketchy stuff, about not trusting him too much. There has to be an unexpected wrinkle here.

Do you really believe Dany gets told she's the prophecized savior, becomes the savior, and that's it? No twist whatsoever??????????

While we don't even know what the promised prince is supposed to do, yes, there is no problem viewing Daenerys as this guy. The twist could be about what said person is destined to do. Nobody ever said anything it involved the Iron Throne or even 'saving the world'. We just have no idea.

And Marwyn may have doubts about the prophecy as such ... but he believes in the Others and knows they need Daenerys and her dragons to fight them. No sane person would doubt that.

And that's part of why folks really make no sense who claim Westeros is ever going to hate or reject Daenerys if she were to come help fight the Others ... because they are a monstrous threat to all.

In fact, even the idea that Westeros could unite against the dragon queen makes little sense ... because she has dragons, and the Westerosi do like to suck up and submit to dragons. Some few people in power would reject her, of course, because they might view her rise to power as a direct threat to theirs. But most folks in Westeros not sitting on the Iron Throne at the point she shows up would actually not view her as a danger but rather as a potential ally for their individual agenda - using her to destroy their enemies, to get the revenge they crave, to share in her power, to gain favors and rise through the ranks by supporting her, etc.

13 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Dragons were dancing when two were fighting over the Throne (Maegor-Aegon, Aegon-Rhaenyra). The point Daenerys makes with her fairy dream is that she doesn't really have anyone to trust in, but she's sure that she could trust in her own blood, if she ever finds one. And she wants to. Would such a conflict have to end in battle? Not sure why. Maybe something else will destroy her imagined fairytale.

Yes, that has been established, so she would find a (good) reason to change her mind on that one. And rumors and stories about how Aegon could be fake - which so far nobody even properly contemplated in the books - are not going to accomplish that. And even if Aegon wasn't her nephew - if he was a Blackfyre cousin he would still be (somewhat more distant) family.

For there to be actual conflict there has to somebody starting the violence ... and the chances are very low that Daenerys is going to be the one. Instead, it should be Aegon and Arianne ... the reason why we ge Arianne being obsessed with Viserys' death in her chapters is likely so she also blames Dany for Quentyn, which means she might be very much opposed to Daenerys when she finally shows up. And if she is Aegon's queen by then she could very much run his government.

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That's why some argue that she will find no problem with Aegon at first. But to do so later, she'll need a serious reason. He can still be a Targaryen, even if he's not TPTWP. And he can ride a dragon even if he's a Blackyre. But can he be a head of the dragon? He can, I think. But it'll be him who destorys the balance between them. Not sure why, I don't write these novels.

That Aegon won't be 'a hero' in this story is very much foreshadowed by him being one of those lies. In addition to him being introduced late, not being a POV, etc. Even Stannis won't be a hero considering what we can expect him to do to his daughter ... and considering what he did to Renly and Penrose and contemplated doing to Edric and pulled with those leeches (which had him use black magic again to 'murder' people - it didn't work, of course, but he wanted it to work).

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If he does accept his Blackfyre heritage, will that change him so dramatically that he'll turn against Daenerys just because she's a Targaryen? Either way, neither a conflict between them has to end in his death. We'll see.

If Aegon were to ever portray himself as a Blackfyre he wouldn't last a day on the Iron Throne. The Blackfyres are done. The reason why he is disguised as a Targaryen if he is a Blackfyre descendant is because Varys and Illyrio didn't think he could take the throne as a Blackfyre.

And one should not play up the Blackfyre thing to much - Aegon cannot be a Blackfyre as such, merely a Blackfyre descendant. And the Golden Company want home, they don't really care what kind of dragon gets them to Westeros.

However, Aegon learning the truth about himself - how he has been played and manipulated - certainly could unhinge him and send him down a dangerous path.

I just rewatched the first Thor movie ... and there you see what the revelation of his true parentage does to Loki. Sure, that guy always had a dark streak, but it is the feeling of betrayal that causes him to run amok. We should expect similar reactions for both Aegon and Jon Snow depending if and how they learn who they actually are.

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22 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I tought we're talking about Daenerys here.

Well, the question is, do you think Daenerys is vying for the IT the way, let's say, Renly did (If you do, you misunderstand her character)? If not, why would she be vying for it against her only family left?

We have dragonriders with so little drop of Targaryen blood that any Blackfyre descendancy would pretty much grant him the ability to tame one. Not to mention that even Quentyn was about to tame Rhaegal, but Viserion burned him (not Rhaegal). After all, the dragons even feel Brown Ben's Targaryen descendancy.

I cannot say I know what Illyrio and Varys are planning. But I'm sure all those years of preparation (whatever they want) won't end in Aegon's death in the very beginning only for Daenerys having a bad first impression about his own nephew, whom he eventually saw in a vision where his brother Rhaegar (who she admires) claimed that this guy is TPTWP.

We are. Lots of people don't believe Aegon is real. So there is no reason Dany should just because she is a Targaryen.,

Dany has thought of little else but the Iron Throne since the day she married Drogo. She wants it because she feels it is rightfully hers (or Viserys' until he died). In what way is this different from Renly or any other claimant? They all claim legitimacy to the crown and are willing to use force to take it. She may not be convinced that Aegon is family, especially if the dragons don't like him.

Quentyn was about to tame Rhaegal? I think you need to read that bit again. And yes,, they warm to Brown Ben, so they can sense a Targaryen. If they do not warm to Aegon, Dany is not likely to either.

Plans go awry, especially Illyrio's, in case you hadn't noticed. And I'm not talking about Aegon dying, just that Dany will not necessarily just assume he is the child from her vision.

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11 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Quentyn was about to tame Rhaegal? I think you need to read that bit again.

He got it backwards, but his point stands.  The dragon that attacked him was not the already-enraged dragon that he yelled at and struck in the face with a whip.

11 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And yes,, they warm to Brown Ben, so they can sense a Targaryen. If they do not warm to Aegon, Dany is not likely to either.

That's fair.  It assumes facts not in evidence yet, but that is where I see this going.

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The plot is another test for Dany. Does she care more about finding a lost family member, or the throne? If the former, she would just shrug and say, "you can have it, I'm just glad I'm not alone anymore." :wub:

Do you see Dany doing that?

Well, I don't know for how long would or will things work out there. We, again, are talking about first impressions. That can mean what? First two days, first two weeks or first two months either. What I was trying to tell is that Daenerys will definitely be inclined for compromises and. As you've seen above, there's enough proof not to debate that anymore. However, I do agree that she would feel left out, if she doesn't marry Aegon, because he's already married to Arianne, and a guy named Jon Snow doesn't show up until that point (he kinda won't). Not even initially because of Aegon, but because of Arianne. As much as I love both characters, I think Arianne (because little does she know) will pretty much dislike her on a serious level, for the death of Viserys and Quentyn too. Now, to be honest, I won't guess how things further would happen, because I feel like I can't.

Also, George once said he doesn't introduce characters for the sake of the development in the arcs of those who came earlier, altough he did it before (Drogo).

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Say Aegon is already married and invites Dany to be his 2nd wife - a  choice, a temptation. A relatively bloodless route to the throne and a Targaryen dynasty restored.

Can't tell you that. It's so distant and cloudy that I rather not guess. Arianne, after all, has a drop of dragonblood, and pretty much could be a rival to Daenerys she wouldn't like to handle.

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany rejecting this because she wants the throne on her conditions, is very likely and also, understandable.

Daenerys, after all, isn't the one who desires power. But the IT is definitely a tool to her to achieve her final goals (which isn't rulership, but restauration and finding a home. Tho she likely does want to be included in that restauration (I hope that's a word because it is in my langauage), considering how much she brings. But I bet she would be fine to 'rule' alongside someone. However, Aegon does not seem to offee those conditions entirely).

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But she would have still made a choice toward violence when a less violent route was presented, and Aegon wouldn't have forced her or anything, he would have just gotten there first and made alliances first, and offered her one, but she probably won't like it. The saying isn't, "wherever the dragons danced the people died but Dany was never at fault"

I'm not trying to protect Daenerys' character feom the future mistakes she'll make, I was just saying that her character buildup pretty much shows us that she would like to still have someone of her own blood around, and would also be inclined for a compromise. She'll probably mess some things up after that bomb blows up, tho.

Remember that she'll know about Aegon the moment she comes back to Meereen and Tyrion tells her. He will. Probably the first thing he'll tell her will be that her nephew is taking Westeros back if he didn't come to her. News might also reach Meereen about him.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, that has been established, so she would find a (good) reason to change her mind on that one. And rumors and stories about how Aegon could be fake - which so far nobody even properly contemplated in the books - are not going to accomplish that. And even if Aegon wasn't her nephew - if he was a Blackfyre cousin he would still be (somewhat more distant) family.

Completely agreed. Such events can easily make your worst enemies into your allies. The Targaryens weren't a target to any Blackfyre conspiracy the moment Robert became king. That's why I hope for somewhat the best for Aegon as a Blackfyre, if he is one. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For there to be actual conflict there has to somebody starting the violence ... and the chances are very low that Daenerys is going to be the one. Instead, it should be Aegon and Arianne ... the reason why we ge Arianne being obsessed with Viserys' death in her chapters is likely so she also blames Dany for Quentyn, which means she might be very much opposed to Daenerys when she finally shows up. And if she is Aegon's queen by then she could very much run his government.

Good to agree on that.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That Aegon won't be 'a hero' in this story is very much foreshadowed by him being one of those lies. In addition to him being introduced late, not being a POV, etc. Even Stannis won't be a hero considering what we can expect him to do to his daughter ... and considering what he did to Renly and Penrose and contemplated doing to Edric and pulled with those leeches (which had him use black magic again to 'murder' people - it didn't work, of course, but he wanted it to work).

Well, someone has to be a hero to ride a dragon? Or can't get a satisfying ending if he's not one? I've seen an idea (fon't know who wrote it) that the Targaryens were dealing with the Blackfyres with violence, yet, if Aegon is one, they didn't succeed on eliminating them, and unlike Brynden, our Targaryens should choose another way of ending this conflict. Sounded like the right thing to do.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon were to ever portray himself as a Blackfyre he wouldn't last a day on the Iron Throne. The Blackfyres are done. The reason why he is disguised as a Targaryen if he is a Blackfyre descendant is because Varys and Illyrio didn't think he could take the throne as a Blackfyre.

And one should not play up the Blackfyre thing to much - Aegon cannot be a Blackfyre as such, merely a Blackfyre descendant. And the Golden Company want home, they don't really care what kind of dragon gets them to Westeros.

However, Aegon learning the truth about himself - how he has been played and manipulated - certainly could unhinge him and send him down a dangerous path.

I just rewatched the first Thor movie ... and there you see what the revelation of his true parentage does to Loki. Sure, that guy always had a dark streak, but it is the feeling of betrayal that causes him to run amok. We should expect similar reactions for both Aegon and Jon Snow depending if and how they learn who they actually are.

Kinda agreeing with you on this too.

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We are. Lots of people don't believe Aegon is real

Neither do I. But we can both agree that including Aegon was nonsense, if he's just a guy who can't ride a dragon and is just a puppet waiting to be thrown into the dungeons when Daenerys arrives. For real, this is what makes sense to you?

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So there is no reason Dany should just because she is a Targaryen

If there is no reason to you, then you surely missed those facts and quotes provided in this thread that prove the opposite. And your time spent on this thread was pointless.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Dany has thought of little else but the Iron Throne since the day she married Drogo. She wants it because she feels it is rightfully hers (or Viserys' until he died). In what way is this different from Renly or any other claimant? They all claim legitimacy to the crown and are willing to use force to take it. She may not be convinced that Aegon is family, especially if the dragons don't like him.

No. Again you're just wrong. She wants the IT because she feels like it's her duty as the last living member of her House, and because she thinks the IT will provide her the home she desired her entire life. She is moved by something entirely different than what moved Renly, for example.

On the other hand, she will hear of him before she arrives in Westeros (via Tyrion). And if the dragons won't like him, then I guess George should've left him out of his story, because people wouldn't want to read the lame story about the fake prince who was roasted on his first day, and the two 'masterminds' who couldn't achieve anything in 20 years. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Quentyn was about to tame Rhaegal? I think you need to read that bit again.

Well, on your next re-read, make sure you pay more attention to that scene, as well as to Daenerys' chapters. You might then think of the story on its whole.

Altough I was wrong too, It was Viserion who he was about to tame, and Rhaegal roasted him from the back. Sorry for that.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And yes,, they warm to Brown Ben, so they can sense a Targaryen. If they do not warm to Aegon, Dany is not likely to either.

Surely Daenerys will throw him on front of Rhaegal and Viserion thr momemt she arrives. Altough that way even Targaryen blood wouldn't protect him from one of the two.

Do you really thing she will instantly do that? If not, remember that we're talking about first impressions, as I've told you a few times.

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4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He got it backwards, but his point stands.  The dragon that attacked him was not the already-enraged dragon that he yelled at and struck in the face with a whip.

That's fair.  It assumes facts not in evidence yet, but that is where I see this going.

Yeah, I figured that, but the whole example is irrelevant. Quentyn is not a Targeryen, so there is no reason to think any dragon should be his best bud.

My point is that Dany will not just automatically assume Aegon is for real. And if the dragons don't like him, that's a pretty big clue that he's not.

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2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Neither do I. But we can both agree that including Aegon was nonsense, if he's just a guy who can't ride a dragon and is just a puppet waiting to be thrown into the dungeons when Daenerys arrives. For real, this is what makes sense to you?

If there is no reason to you, then you surely missed those facts and quotes provided in this thread that prove the opposite. And your time spent on this thread was pointless.

No. Again you're just wrong. She wants the IT because she feels like it's her duty as the last living member of her House, and because she thinks the IT will provide her the home she desired her entire life. She is moved by something entirely different than what moved Renly, for example.

On the other hand, she will hear of him before she arrives in Westeros (via Tyrion). And if the dragons won't like him, then I guess George should've left him out of his story, because people wouldn't want to read the lame story about the fake prince who was roasted on his first day, and the two 'masterminds' who couldn't achieve anything in 20 years. 

Well, on your next re-read, make sure you pay more attention to that scene, as well as to Daenerys' chapters. You might then think of the story on its whole.

Altough I was wrong too, It was Viserion who he was about to tame, and Rhaegal roasted him from the back. Sorry for that.

Surely Daenerys will throw him on front of Rhaegal and Viserion thr momemt she arrives. Altough that way even Targaryen blood wouldn't protect him from one of the two.

Do you really thing she will instantly do that? If not, remember that we're talking about first impressions, as I've told you a few times.

No, this is the guy who will secure the Iron Throne for Illyrio. Then Illyrio can get what he's really after: the destruction of the Iron Bank. After that, he doesn't care what happens to Aegon, or Westeros.

I missed nothing. There is no reason for Dany to just assume Aegon is real just because he says so any more than she believed Xaro's expressions of love. Give the girl some credit. And as I said, if the dragons don't like him . . .

The "home" she wants is the house with the red door. She wants the crown because she believes it is rightfully hers. She has never uttered one word about becoming queen in order to get a home. That was Viserys.

I think you should let George worry about crafting the story from here. Every single book so far has featured sudden deaths and unexpected events that have drastically altered the plot so that the ending was not even close to where it appeared to be going at the beginning. You could say the same thing about Quentyn, Renly, even Ned. Why bother have any of them in the story if they're just going to die accomplishing nothing? And again, just because Aegon is fake, who says he's going to die?

Lol, please show me any text that even hints Quentyn was close to taming anything. Just because they didn't devour him on sight doesn't mean they were close to being trained.

Who knows what Dany will do? He obviously thinks he's the real Aegon, but that's only because that's what he's been told all his life. Even JonCon doesn't know the truth. Illyrio should, though, and Varys.

 

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No, this is the guy who will secure the Iron Throne for Illyrio. Then Illyrio can get what he's really after: the destruction of the Iron Bank. After that, he doesn't care what happens to Aegon, or Westeros.

If he really wanted to destroy the Iron Bank he'd help Daenerys. The Iron Bank would love Aegon, he'd pay his debts. Dragons don't.

48 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I think you should let George worry about crafting the story from here. Every single book so far has featured sudden deaths and unexpected events that have drastically altered the plot so that the ending was not even close to where it appeared to be going at the beginning. You could say the same thing about Quentyn, Renly, even Ned. Why bother have any of them in the story if they're just going to die accomplishing nothing? And again, just because Aegon is fake, who says he's going to die?

So of course the most obvious thing in the fandom (Daenerys fighting against Aegon) is totally going to happen. :blink:

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21 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Completely agreed. Such events can easily make your worst enemies into your allies. The Targaryens weren't a target to any Blackfyre conspiracy the moment Robert became king. That's why I hope for somewhat the best for Aegon as a Blackfyre, if he is one. 

If Aegon were to still face trouble and could barely stay on the Iron Throne - or not even conquer it - by the time Dany shows up, then they will be natural allies, of course, regardless who Aegon is. They both represent House Targaryen and they both fight a war to avenge the wrongs done to that house, so if there is an anti-Targaryen coalition out there, they will get their act together and unite their forces.

A conflict between Aegon and Daenerys makes only sense if Aegon has already established himself on the Iron Throne, is in a position of (relative) strength and thinks he no longer needs his aunt and her forces and dragons to defeat whatever enemies of his are left in Westeros.

That is a rather special scenario, but it seems like we can expect Aegon conquer the Iron Throne in record time and even get a little bit more sunlight after he has done that.

If Aegon were forever stuck at Storm's End or were marching to Oldtown or Highgarden or against Casterly Rock or anywhere else in Westeros but KL then he would not even be a serious pretender by the time Dany shows up. To be taken seriously as a Targaryen and a pretender to the Iron Throne he has to sit on that throne.

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Well, someone has to be a hero to ride a dragon? Or can't get a satisfying ending if he's not one? I've seen an idea (fon't know who wrote it) that the Targaryens were dealing with the Blackfyres with violence, yet, if Aegon is one, they didn't succeed on eliminating them, and unlike Brynden, our Targaryens should choose another way of ending this conflict. Sounded like the right thing to do.

As you said, with the whole Baratheon thing the Blackfyres and Targaryens no longer are enemies. That's the reason why the Golden Company can openly support a Targaryen pretender they originally wanted to marry to another Targaryen pretender. When both branches of the dragon family tree are in exile, they can put their assets together.

With Aegon, there is a chance that Illyrio is going to tell him that he is his real father - if that's the case. Illyrio wants to join the gang in KL, possibly for Aegon's coronation and/or wedding feast. We can also expect him to join Aegon's court and sit on the council alongside Varys. If he gets this close to Aegon he might wish to be more of a father to him ... and depending how much Aegon grows to like being Rhaegar's son he might not exactly like it if anybody where to tell him that this wasn't the case - even if it is just in private and not revealed to the public or the court.

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yeah, I figured that, but the whole example is irrelevant. Quentyn is not a Targeryen, so there is no reason to think any dragon should be his best bud.

Mellario is of unknown heritage.  For that reason alone, you cannot say Frog has too little dragon in him to become a dragon rider, even if you assume that he really is the son of Doran and Mellario (which I don't think he is, but never mind).

Frog dreams of fire and blood.  Frog saw a man killed horribly by a dragon, and then walked up to the dragon, yelled at it, and hit it in the face with a whip.  The dragon did not respond by killing him instantly, they way he did with the crossbowman.  The burnt-beyond-recognition man dying on Dany's bed is .... burnt beyond recognition.  Gerris and Archie are hiding something from Barristan.  For all these reasons, Frog just might have what it takes.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My point is that Dany will not just automatically assume Aegon is for real. And if the dragons don't like him, that's a pretty big clue that he's not.

Yes, I agree with you there.    I suspect if Team Aegon gets a dragon (dragon with advanced greyscale awakened by blood magic using kingsblood human sacrifice), Loras Tyrell will be the rider.

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Forget? No. Ignore? Yes.

Dany may have heard Rhaegar saying that Aegon is the Prince that was Promised but she also has heard about how she is a slayer of lies and that there is a cloth dragon around. Even if she believes that Rhaegar was right, which by Barristan words is proved that he wasn’t, there is nothing to say that she will believe that JonCon’s Aegon is Rhaegar’s Aegon.

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1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Forget? No. Ignore? Yes.

Dany may have heard Rhaegar saying that Aegon is the Prince that was Promised but she also has heard about how she is a slayer of lies and that there is a cloth dragon around. Even if she believes that Rhaegar was right, which by Barristan words is proved that he wasn’t, there is nothing to say that she will believe that JonCon’s Aegon is Rhaegar’s Aegon.

Well if she does believe Rhaegar is right, then she has to assume he is still alive somewhere. So twiddle her thumbs and risk missing the guy who is said to be king and TPTWP, or assume it's him?

I mean we literally have her thinking she could have married Aegon if he was still alive because he'd be around her age and all. Well, she will hear he is alive.

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18 hours ago, Egged said:

If he really wanted to destroy the Iron Bank he'd help Daenerys. The Iron Bank would love Aegon, he'd pay his debts. Dragons don't.

So of course the most obvious thing in the fandom (Daenerys fighting against Aegon) is totally going to happen. :blink:

Why would Aegon make good on the debts of traitors and usurpers? This is exactly what he will not do. And remember, Aegon was the plan all along. Illyrio never expected Dany to even survive the Dothraki, let alone emerge with thee dragons.

Again, who says they are going to fight? If he was duped into thinking he was Aegon, she has no reason to fight him, but no reason to support him either.

 

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16 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Mellario is of unknown heritage.  For that reason alone, you cannot say Frog has too little dragon in him to become a dragon rider, even if you assume that he really is the son of Doran and Mellario (which I don't think he is, but never mind).

Frog dreams of fire and blood.  Frog saw a man killed horribly by a dragon, and then walked up to the dragon, yelled at it, and hit it in the face with a whip.  The dragon did not respond by killing him instantly, they way he did with the crossbowman.  The burnt-beyond-recognition man dying on Dany's bed is .... burnt beyond recognition.  Gerris and Archie are hiding something from Barristan.  For all these reasons, Frog just might have what it takes.

Yes, I agree with you there.    I suspect if Team Aegon gets a dragon (dragon with advanced greyscale awakened by blood magic using kingsblood human sacrifice), Loras Tyrell will be the rider.

Well, there is no way to disprove a secret Targ theory. It's that's what you believe, then go with it I guess. I too believe Quent is still alive, but not because he is a Targ but because he is a Martell, descended from the Rhoynar, like Dany.

I don't even know how to respond to the rest. Sorry.

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