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Public Figures Satirized as Genre Characters: eg. Ten Rules for Life, By Red Skull


SpaceChampion

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24 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

Yes? There are like hundreds on Amazon. 

There sure are ... let’s read a few off shall we? Books with the title “X rules for life”:

12 Rules for Life by Jordan B Peterson

Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life by Jordan B Peterson

Summary of 12 Rules for Life by Jordan B Peterson (speed reading edition)

Summary of Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life by Jordan B Peterson

Summary AND Analysis of Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life by Jordan B Peterson

488 Rules for Life by Kitty Flanagan

Aha, found her! Undoubtedly this is who Coates was referring to: take that Kitty Flanagan!

24 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

(calls HoI racist yet again for no real reason)

And @Ran, clearly Peterson isn't a fictional nazi. I mean I think we are all in agreement that he is certainly real, right?

If you think he’s a Nazi you can just say so, this schtick is getting old.

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14 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

 

Aha, found her! Undoubtedly this is who Coates was referring to: take that Kitty Flanagan!

And John Ritter and William Shatner too!

14 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

If you think he’s a Nazi you can just say so, this schtick is getting old.

I didn't say that he is. Jordan Peterson appears to think he himself is. Why would you argue with him?

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Wait, was Peterson the guy who took supplements and only ate meat and had to go into a coma in Russia to recover, and then wrote a book about life rules?

Maybe the red skull reference is just to his skin turning red from eating beef only?

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4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Lol. I tap out on this one.

 

4 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I’m tapping out too. 

What are you guys, some super shitty wrestling duo? 

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@DaveSumm

Karl did not call HoI racist. He said he thought HoI would be unlikely to have agreed with Coates on reparations -- which makes it seem disingenuous that HoI characterized Coates as "good" before he putatively satirized Jordan Peterson.

There was no accusation of racism.

But thank you for allowing me to observe right wing racial grievance in action. Converting the disagreement or blowback from the left into constant accusations of racism. Thus claiming the mantle of victimhood that they resent when claimed by others. I make no claim against you specifically, lest this become a self-fulfilling prophecy. But it is a pattern I've seen over and over and I had to point it out.

I often see right wingers making claims like, "so if you disagree with a black person, you are automatically accused of racism" -- which is definitely the worst thing in the world and worse than bearing the weight of a few centuries of oppression, police violence, restrictions on voting rights, redlined home loans and mysteriously unsolvable poorer outcomes in health care. Such an accusation will ruin your life, destroy your family, and maybe get you curbstomped or something. Cancelled!

Of course simply disagreeing with a black person doesn't make a person racist. Just like disagreeing with a right winger or criticizing their view on race doesn't make it an accusation of racism. So maybe try to avoid the accusation about the accusation.

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10 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

@DaveSumm

Karl did not call HoI racist. He said he thought HoI would be unlikely to have agreed with Coates on reparations -- which makes it seem disingenuous that HoI characterized Coates as "good" before he putatively satirized Jordan Peterson.

There was no accusation of racism.

But thank you for allowing me to observe right wing racial grievance in action. Converting the disagreement or blowback from the left into constant accusations of racism. Thus claiming the mantle of victimhood that they resent when claimed by others. I make no claim against you specifically, lest this become a self-fulfilling prophecy. But it is a pattern I've seen over and over and I had to point it out.

I often see right wingers making claims like, "so if you disagree with a black person, you are automatically accused of racism" -- which is definitely the worst thing in the world and worse than bearing the weight of a few centuries of oppression, police violence, restrictions on voting rights, redlined home loans and mysteriously unsolvable poorer outcomes in health care. Such an accusation will ruin your life, destroy your family, and maybe get you curbstomped or something. Cancelled!

Of course simply disagreeing with a black person doesn't make a person racist. Just like disagreeing with a right winger or criticizing their view on race doesn't make it an accusation of racism. So maybe try to avoid the accusation about the accusation.

No, he didn’t call him racist. And he definitely never revealed his opinion on whether he thinks Peterson is a Nazi, we’re all still scratching our heads on that one. Mystery.

I don’t really know what to tell you, if you don’t think this:

5 hours ago, Karlbear said:

Yeah, when I think of you I definitely think that you view a guy who openly thinks reparations for slavery are essential as good. That's definitely not performative outrage. No sorrow.

...reads as “I’ve read your posts and I’ve concluded you’re racist, so you clearly wouldn’t agree with Coates because he believes in reparations” then were just not on the same page. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s an innocent remark about political stance, but every other post by him in the thread doesn’t exactly make me extend much goodwill. I agree with a lot of what you said, I just don’t think it’s on target in this instance.

It just gets tiring that every discussion here gets diverted to being “the Board vs HoI part 26” because people only ever debate the person and not the argument. And so I try and balance it out and not make it look like such a pile on. 

Also, seems kinda irrelevant now ... but I assume by ‘good’ he meant ‘is a good comic book writer’? Not ‘is a good and wonderful human being’? Karlbear surely can’t be scoffing at the idea that HoI thought Coates was good at his job?

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1 hour ago, Karlbear said:

Wait, was Peterson the guy who took supplements and only ate meat and had to go into a coma in Russia to recover, and then wrote a book about life rules?

Maybe the red skull reference is just to his skin turning red from eating beef only?

I think Peterson is the guy who became a right wing darling when he created a video series attacking "political correctness" (a bold take in 2016) and refusing to use the pronouns students asked him to use. It definitely wasn't a way to use the bogeyman of the censorious, cancelling left to hitch onto the right wing pundit gravy train.

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To be honest I didn’t even spot that comment last time, the whole sentence made little sense to me so I ignored it.

When I said ‘good’ I meant in terms of quality. I mean if your level of social commentary is at the point of writing about incels in a Captain America comic and making inaccurate  jabs at Jordan Peterson then I’m struggling to see why anyone would take you seriously as a comic book writer. Somebody did obviously because they gave him the Superman job.

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7 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

...reads as “I’ve read your posts and I’ve concluded you’re racist, so you clearly wouldn’t agree with Coates because he believes in reparations” then were just not on the same page. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s an innocent remark about political stance, but every other post by him in the thread doesn’t exactly make me extend much goodwill. I agree with a lot of what you said, I just don’t think it’s on target in this instance.

Whether or not he's racist is immaterial; I doubt very seriously that he thinks that Coates is 'good' in any form of the word, and I also doubt that he would ever think someone is good who supports reparations for slavery. That has nothing to do with racism. 

7 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

It just gets tiring that every discussion here gets diverted to being “the Board vs HoI part 26” because people only ever debate the person and not the argument. And so I try and balance it out and not make it look like such a pile on. 

HoI made the obvious performative value statement that previous to this, he thought Coates was 'good'. And now he's SO DISAPPOINTED IN HIM HOW DARE HE? Come on. Show me the Venn diagram of people who like Coates and people who like Peterson. 

7 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Also, seems kinda irrelevant now ... but I assume by ‘good’ he meant ‘is a good comic book writer’? Not ‘is a good and wonderful human being’? Karlbear surely can’t be scoffing at the idea that HoI thought Coates was good at his job?

Given that this is the first comic that Coates has written in a while and he's far better known for his political commentary, I kinda doubt Hoi was referring to his comic writing skills. I specifically doubt that he's ever read any of Coates' previous work on Black Panther, especially since it was directly inspired by the movie that HoI also says was garbage. 

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

To be honest I didn’t even spot that comment last time, the whole sentence made little sense to me so I ignored it.

When I said ‘good’ I meant in terms of quality. I mean if your level of social commentary is at the point of writing about incels in a Captain America comic and making inaccurate  jabs at Jordan Peterson then I’m struggling to see why anyone would take you seriously as a comic book writer. Somebody did obviously because they gave him the Superman job.

Again, Coates' level of social commentary is most famously to talk about reparations,something that the creators of Watchmen (TV show) directly referenced for creating their work. I doubt very seriously that you thought Coates' comic writing was good or even if you had ever read it. 

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Yeah honestly I have no idea what is going on here. What are you talking about? This is total gibberish.

At some point I heard Coates was a good writer, as came up in the Superman thread, my point is, if Coates thinks writing about Jordan Peterson in a Marvel comic is in some way clever or biting, then holy shit, those people were wrong.

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21 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

No, he didn’t call him racist. And he definitely never revealed his opinion on whether he thinks Peterson is a Nazi, we’re all still scratching our heads on that one. Mystery.

I don’t really know what to tell you, if you don’t think this:

...reads as “I’ve read your posts and I’ve concluded you’re racist, so you clearly wouldn’t agree with Coates because he believes in reparations” then were just not on the same page. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s an innocent remark about political stance, but every other post by him in the thread doesn’t exactly make me extend much goodwill. I agree with a lot of what you said, I just don’t think it’s on target in this instance.

I think a person can disagree with Coates about reparations and not be racist. What a silly claim.

 

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It just gets tiring that every discussion here gets diverted to being “the Board vs HoI part 26” because people only ever debate the person and not the argument. And so I try and balance it out and not make it look like such a pile on. 

Every discussion?

Can you try to just tone down your defensiveness a little? I also disagree with your "debate the person not the arguments" analysis. Surely people here, including myself, have a negative view of HoI's stance on racism and other topics. That doesn't mean the person is posting in bad faith or not engaging with the arguments. I've seen plenty of people engage with HoI's arguments. If they sneak in a snide remark, it doesn't mean they didn't address the argument. Yet you choose to respond to the personal part rather than the argument.

 

Quote

Also, seems kinda irrelevant now ... but I assume by ‘good’ he meant ‘is a good comic book writer’? Not ‘is a good and wonderful human being’? Karlbear surely can’t be scoffing at the idea that HoI thought Coates was good at his job?

I think Karl has addressed this argument.

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7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah honestly I have no idea what is going on here. What are you talking about? This is total gibberish.

At some point I heard Coates was a good writer, as came up in the Superman thread, my point is, if Coates thinks writing about Jordan Peterson in a Marvel comic is in some way clever or biting, then holy shit, those people were wrong.

I'm saying that I think that you think Coates being a good writer and now being disappointed is performative bullshit. I doubt seriously that you thought that the writer of Black Panther was ever a 'good' writer. 

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12 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

Whether or not he's racist is immaterial; I doubt very seriously that he thinks that Coates is 'good' in any form of the word, and I also doubt that he would ever think someone is good who supports reparations for slavery. That has nothing to do with racism. 

So ... based entirely on his posting history, you’ve concluded that HoI cannot possibly have heard that Coates was a good comic book writer? And that, furthermore, it’s not possible that he could appreciate a comic book if it’s author conflicted with his own opinion (whatever the fuck that is) on reparations? I have that right? 

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9 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

I'm saying that I think that you think Coates being a good writer and now being disappointed is performative bullshit. I doubt seriously that you thought that the writer of Black Panther was ever a 'good' writer. 

When did I say I thought He was a good writer? Read what I wrote. I said I assumed he was good. Based on what I’d heard.

But really what is this conversation even about? You seem to skirting around what you want to say as usual. I mean you won’t even say if you think Peterson is a Nazi.

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3 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

So ... based entirely on his posting history, you’ve concluded that HoI cannot possibly have heard that Coates was a good comic book writer? And that, furthermore, it’s not possible that he could appreciate a comic book if it’s author conflicted with his own opinion (whatever the fuck that is) on reparations? I have that right? 

Yes, based on the things he said on the internet about Coates and Black Panther I came to the conclusion that he didn't like Coates and Black Panther. SHOCKING

Thought you said you were tapping out, bruh. 

 

Just now, Heartofice said:

When did I say I thought I was a good writer? Read what I wrote. I said I assumed he was good. Based on what I’d heard.

You had not said that what you had heard he was good. Just that he was good. Thought you said you were tapping out, bruh?

Just now, Heartofice said:

But really what is this conversation even about? You seem to skirting around what you want to say as usual. I mean you won’t even say if you think Peterson is a Nazi.

Part of the conversation is about your performative outrage that you are SHOCKED that someone like Coates - a person who has made their whole career about writing books and published articles about social justice issues - could possibly stoop so low as to make social commentary in his comics, FOR SHAME. Your pearls are suitably clutched, congrats.

Part of it is whether Jordan Peterson, who has associated his own words with the Red Skull, thinks he is akin to a fictional Nazi. I mean, why should I argue with Peterson if he wants to associate himself with the Red Skull?

 

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I don’t care about putting social commentary in comics, it’s a good place for it. If it’s clever.. and maybe in some way accurate. The Red Skull stuff is like some dumb meme cooked up by some kid on the internet. Am I supposed to take it for biting satirical commentary on the state of America?!  Is that the cleverest point Coates can make? 
 

Surely someone as well respected as Coates should be aiming higher no? And maybe try to be a little bit better informed?

But like you, I guess he thinks Peterson is a Nazi.. because .. well who knows why.

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4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The Red Skull stuff is like some dumb meme cooked up by some kid on the internet.

Have you even read the comic you are referencing? 

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