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DCEU: Enter the Snyderverse


Rhom

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Whatever else he may have written or said, Ta-Nahesi Coates is by this time an established and respected comic book writer. He seems very suitable for the role of writing this film. I do tend to agree with DMC that the problem here is a perception that a black Superman written by a black writer must be an inherently political thing in a way that a white writer writing a white Superman is not.

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3 hours ago, mormont said:

Whatever else he may have written or said, Ta-Nahesi Coates is by this time an established and respected comic book writer. He seems very suitable for the role of writing this film. I do tend to agree with DMC that the problem here is a perception that a black Superman written by a black writer must be an inherently political thing in a way that a white writer writing a white Superman is not.

You’d acknowledge his history of writing means he’s really not just any old comic book writer ( he’s written 2)?  I’m not sure why you are so keen to dismiss his entire back catalogue? 
 

Of course casting a black superman doesn’t have to be political,  for instance race could barely be mentioned in the movie.

But then specifically  hire a writer who is well known for writing on racial issues and white supremacy.

Then there are suggestions that a black director will only be considered. 
 

So I’d say suspecting that the movie will be heavily leaning on political messaging doesn’t require Sherlock Holmes to figure it out 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Then there are suggestions that a black director will only be considered. 

Next thing you know black people will be the ones producing it too!

I can't decide if your lack of self-awareness is more amusing or sad.  You're right - it doesn't take Sherlock to figure out what someone complaining about a movie being too "political" because it features a black character written and directed by black people is actually complaining about.  Imagine if a white guy wrote a movie about a white character and a white guy directed it?  Well all those movies must be way too political, right?

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7 minutes ago, DMC said:

Imagine if a white guy wrote a movie about a white character and a white guy directed it?  Well all those movies must be way too political, right?

Maybe if they changed a black character to a white one, then specifically hired someone with a background writing about racial politics from a white perspective, and made a point of hiring a white director.. do you think maybe , just maybe there might be something in it? 
 

You are being so dishonest in your argument here it’s really time to not engage with you on this I think 

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13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You are being so dishonest in your argument here it’s really time to not engage with you on this I think 

Oh, if wishing made it so.  Please identify what you think I've been dishonest about.

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Oh, if wishing made it so.  Please identify what you think I've been dishonest about.

For one completely failing to acknowledge Coates is known specifically for writing on racial issues and the black experience .. like it’s nothing 

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2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

You’d acknowledge his history of writing means he’s really not just any old comic book writer ( he’s written 2)?

He's written 93 issues over five years. Whether one counts the Black Panther tie-in series as seperate titles or not is an open question, but that's a respectable CV.

Quote

 I’m not sure why you are so keen to dismiss his entire back catalogue?

I've not suggested that I am.

Ironically, you would probably find that Coates would agree with you in some degree. He'd acknowledge that his very existence as a black man is, in the modern Western society, inevitably political. But so too is my existence, for example, as a white man. So yes, recasting a black character as white and appointing a white writer with the viewpoint you suggest would also be political. Everything's political, to borrow a phrase. The difference is the politics in each case. We can't pretend that whiteness and blackness in our society are politically equivalent, or even comparable in many ways. It would be foolish to pretend they were.

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9 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

For one completely failing to acknowledge Coates is known specifically for writing on racial issues and the black experience .. like it’s nothing 

I did acknowledge that, rather immediately:

7 hours ago, DMC said:

I'm aware he's published/publicized many political opinions that you disagree with, yes.

Just because you're unable to grasp my point doesn't mean I'm being dishonest.  I'm not saying Coates' depiction of black Superman won't be political.  I'm saying Superman is political.  No matter what color or ethnicity.  Your problem isn't that black Superman will be political, it's that you assume the character will be depicted in a way that's politically disagreeable to you.

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7 hours ago, Relic said:

I've no idea why anyone thinks this. Cavill is one of the worst actors in these big budget superhero roles. He's wooden, has zero emotional range, and basically seems like he learned how to act while filming porn. 

Aren't you the guy who's waived off superhero movies?

He's not Reobert DeNiro, but Cavill is a great superman. I haven't seen the Witcher or Mission Impossible, but I thought he was pretty good in Man From Uncle, even if the film was a bit "meh".

And it doesn't change the fact that if they sideline Cavill for some new guy; any new guy; fans will not be happy about it.

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Meh this argument that ‘everything is political’ like there is some sort of equivalence just doesn’t really stand up. 
 

Even suggesting that the mere act of telling a superman story is political and therefore there are no degrees to which poltics is the point of the story is just a very odd thing to say. Not every superman story is about him being an immigrant, most arent.

Captain America is a deeply political character but there is a big difference between a story where he takes on a massive alien slug and one where he fights the US government or punches Hitler in the face. 
 

Again there could be an argument that changing the race of an established character is not a deeply political act, and that it was done in a colourblind way, except that argument goes out the window as soon as the person you hire someone famous for talking about racial poltics to write the movie. 
 

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11 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Even suggesting that the mere act of telling a superman story is political and therefore there are no degrees to which poltics is the point of the story is just a very odd thing to say.

To you, I'm sure it is.  But, fortunately, we all don't have to share your perspective.  And from the perspective of someone, ya know, living in reality, it's shockingly naive to think Superman overwhelmingly being depicted as white for the past - what?, 80 years? - isn't political.

18 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Again there could be an argument that changing the race of an established character is not a deeply political act, and that it was done in a colourblind way, except that argument goes out the window as soon as the person you hire someone famous for talking about racial poltics to write the movie. 

Again, it's not the fact that the "someone famous" hired talks about racial politics that is your problem.  It's that he talks about racial politics in a way you don't like.  If someone is being dishonest here, it's you.

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

To you, I'm sure it is.  But, fortunately, we all don't have to share your perspective.  And from the perspective of someone, ya know, living in reality, it's shockingly naive to think Superman overwhelmingly being depicted as white for the past - what?, 80 years? - isn't political.

Again, it's not the fact that the "someone famous" hired talks about racial politics that is your problem.  It's that he talks about racial politics in a way you don't like.  If someone is being dishonest here, it's you.

Well you are just being dishonest if you think all superman stories are equally politically motivated. Why bother to engage if that is your position. It’s a nonsense.

Outside of continuously telling me what I think. Well we can stop right there 

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8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well you are just being dishonest if you think all superman stories are equally politically motivated. Why bother to engage if that is your position. It’s a nonsense.

 

Nope, never said that.  It's impressive how dishonest you are about me being dishonest.

 

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On 5/7/2021 at 8:25 AM, Heartofice said:

You’d acknowledge his history of writing means he’s really not just any old comic book writer ( he’s written 2)?  I’m not sure why you are so keen to dismiss his entire back catalogue? 
 

Based on his work with Black Panther and Captain America alone I think he's possibly the best person to write this story.  

Seeing as Superman is one of the most political characters there is under normal circumstances...

Frankly, if you're going to take the classic story of the ultimate icon of both America and its history of immigration, but from the perspective of a black man, well then Coates may be one of the best writers to have on that story.

21 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Aren't you the guy who's waived off superhero movies?

He's not Reobert DeNiro, but Cavill is a great superman. I haven't seen the Witcher or Mission Impossible, but I thought he was pretty good in Man From Uncle, even if the film was a bit "meh".

And it doesn't change the fact that if they sideline Cavill for some new guy; any new guy; fans will not be happy about it.

Cavill is okay as Superman. Routh would have been better had he been able to grow the part.  But the best live action Superman is currently Tyler Hoechlin...

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I’ve kinda lost track of what everyone’s definition of ‘political’ is ... but personally I hope there is a point to the casting of a black Superman. If it’s just ‘we decided to hire black people in these three key roles (director/writer/actor) and now here’s a film that has nothing to do with that’, then it’s a bit dumb. But there’s certainly a story to be told (and no doubt has been in the comics) about what would have happened to Kal-El had he been black. Would the Kents have kept him? Would the world embrace and revere him as much? Depends when you set it, I guess. Whether that works as a single story or whether you’d need to have regular white Superman appear to contrast their respective treatments, I’m not sure.

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51 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I’ve kinda lost track of what everyone’s definition of ‘political’ is ... but personally I hope there is a point to the casting of a black Superman. 

We're seeing a cultural shift driving towards long overdue diversity. Some of it will appear hamfisted, but the end result will be a spectrum of protagonists ranging wider than lily-white male to off-white male. 

The people standing in the way of this are standing in the way of cultural progress. 

 

Now if they could also make these movies, like, good that would be great! 

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Honestly for me I'd have no problem if they hire a black superman and then do nothing with it. No problem if they do either, but asking for them to do something with it implies that only reason to have a black main character is to tell a story about being black. Like yes inevitably making Superman black will be a commentary on being black, cause whenever you put superman in any situation it become commentary on that situation. But the idea that by making the character black you must then centre the story around his blackness feels a little... eh.

ETA: Of course I do expect that such a movie will look into the issue in depth anyway. It would only make sense given Superman is a story written by Jewish people about the immigrant experience. Which actually means that while some of the implications would be different, a lot of stuff can stay the same pretty easily.

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17 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

The Josstice League 4K trailer they released a week ago is sitting at 4.9k likes and 120k dislikes.

Canon, bitches. :smoking:

120,000 people laboring in the salt mines. :hat:

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