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Falcon and The Winter Soldier: These Turkish Delights Have Violent Ends (Spoilers)


Corvinus85

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This show is now sitting in a very strange place when viewed alongside the whole MCU. It's hard to know what universe we are looking at here, because up until this point, race was basically not a thing in the MCU, racism barely mentioned (outside of some scenes in Black Panther). The MCU is a sort of detached, Disney, santitised version of the world that doesn't really want to deal with real life issues in any depth, but here the show is making race the central tenet of its story.

It doesn't help that the race stuff is extremely heavy handed and on the nose. It isn't beating around the bush on this stuff, it wants you to know exactly what is being talked about. 

Its also a bit strange because Issiah was talking about all the things that the shield stood for, the blonde haired blue eyed  nature of the symbol.. but that is Steve Rogers, in one way he's laying all of those things on Steve. Thats all new stuff. It's not like in Winter Soldier Steve woke up and had all these antiquated views on race, those movies don't even think about that stuff.

And I guess in the MCU there was no Obama right? If America isn't ready for a black Captain America, then they sure as hell wouldn't be ready for a black president. 

I think this episode was a vast improvement on the previous couple, because it goes back to the central characters and adds some level of drama and stakes, and barely has any flagsmasher crap, but it's still not extremely exciting or fast paced. It basically over and I feel like nothing has happened. 

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Oh yeah, one slightly clumsy thing albeit a necessary one for future developments: the Wakandans taking Zemo to the raft doesn't really make sense. It's a prison for unlicensed or insane superhumans run, as near as we've ever been told, by the US. Zemo is not superhuman and comitted no crimes either against US nationals nor on US soil, plus his rationale and the rationale of those who run the raft are the same, and the Wakandans with their personal vendetta against him and the whole 'you have no jurisdiction' thing have no reason to hand him over. But Wakanda just taking him would not set up Thunderbolts so needs must, and him sharing a rationale with the raft's masters does make an opening for him to head a Thunderbolts team out of there.

It also amused be that Zemo apparently hung around by the monument for several days waiting for Bucky to finish chilling with Sam and Sarah and show up.

 

Marvel must be fucking delighted with the reception for Zemo in this. If there was any doubt about making a Thunderbolts film or show, it must be nailed on now after Dancing Zemo got five million views.

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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Oh yeah, one slightly clumsy thing albeit a necessary one for future developments: the Wakandans taking Zemo to the raft doesn't really make sense. It's a prison for unlicensed or insane superhumans run, as near as we've ever been told, by the US. Zemo is not superhuman and comitted no crimes either against US nationals nor on US soil, plus his rationale and the rationale of those who run the raft are the same, and the Wakandans with their personal vendetta against him and the whole 'you have no jurisdiction' thing have no reason to hand him over.

I'm not clear what your overall point here is, but the bolded certainly isn't true.  Most of Zemo's crimes in Civil War are either against US nationals or on US soil.  When we first meet him he murders a guy in Cleveland.  He then blows up the UN meeting in Vienna, which obviously is international, but presumably there were US nationals in attendance.  Then he activates Bucky breaking him out of holding that almost to a person consists of US personnel - from SoS William Hurt-Ross apparently the man in charge to CIA Martin Freeman-Ross to Stark and Cap.  Basically until killing the other winter soldiers his crimes are almost entirely directed towards the US.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

When we first meet him he murders a guy in Cleveland.

 

Oh yeah

But my overall point is still that it makes no sense that the Wakandans would hand him over to (a) a US force that (2) is specifically about superhuman containment or Sokovia-Accords breakers.

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12 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

Oh yeah

But my overall point is still that it makes no sense that the Wakandans would hand him over to (a) a US force that (2) is specifically about superhuman containment or Sokovia-Accords breakers.

I thought it was so that Zemo would really suffer. He hates superpowered people and being locked up in a place with the people he despises will make him really pay for his crimes.

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3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

And I guess in the MCU there was no Obama right? 

He's mentioned on Luke Cage. The canon status of the pre-disney+ shows is still up in the air. It's also possible, though unlikely, that they were just talking about senator Obama. 

It seems likely in the MCU after the Chitarui invaded in 2012 ((Thanks Obama!) he lost his re-election to president Ellis. I don't think they ever really get into who the president was until Iron Man 3. 

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23 minutes ago, RumHam said:

He's mentioned on Luke Cage. The canon status of the pre-disney+ shows is still up in the air. It's also possible, though unlikely, that they were just talking about senator Obama. 

It seems likely in the MCU after the Chitarui invaded in 2012 ((Thanks Obama!) he lost his re-election to president Ellis. I don't think they ever really get into who the president was until Iron Man 3. 

Yeah but even then the Netflix shows felt very much apart from the MCU, even if there was a point where they sort of tried to tie them together a little. It was hard to connect the glossy shiny world of the MCU with the grimy version portrayed in Daredevil and Luke Cage

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3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah but even then the Netflix shows felt very much apart from the MCU, even if there was a point where they sort of tried to tie them together a little. It was hard to connect the glossy shiny world of the MCU with the grimy version portrayed in Daredevil and Luke Cage

Yeah, agreed. I find this "Charlie Cox's Daredevil is spider-man's lawyer" rumor hard to believe. (especially since Cottonmouth is the new Blade) but if it is true I'm guessing the netflix stuff will be said to be in an alternate reality. 

Speaking of alternate realities I'm getting excited for What If..? Apparently two of the stories are

What if Ultron won and then had to defend earth from Thanos? and What if Tony ended up on Saakar after failing to make it back through the portal in The Avengers?

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Technically we don't know the status of the Raft after the Blip. It may well be for the world as a whole now...as it was being used to house violations of the Sokovia Accords, it might be a UN facility that is administered by the US...in the end, it isn't currently worthy of over speculation...

 

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5 hours ago, RumHam said:

He's mentioned on Luke Cage. The canon status of the pre-disney+ shows is still up in the air. It's also possible, though unlikely, that they were just talking about senator Obama. 

It seems likely in the MCU after the Chitarui invaded in 2012 ((Thanks Obama!) he lost his re-election to president Ellis. I don't think they ever really get into who the president was until Iron Man 3. 

Yea was gonna post this, Obama comes up in a Method Man rap. Seems likely he just wrote it and the producers of Luke Cage didn’t really think about it, but the theory at the time was as you say, that Obama had one term and lost to Ellis (who then featured in Agents of SHIELD and so, of course, was swiftly ignored in the MCU proper). Also to complete the ‘tame TV tie-in’s’ theme’ Jessica Jones mother was supposed to be headed to the Raft (or had been there ... can’t remember).

9 hours ago, Heartofice said:

And I guess in the MCU there was no Obama right? If America isn't ready for a black Captain America, then they sure as hell wouldn't be ready for a black president. 

The weird thing is, there doesn’t really seem to be that much daylight between what Captain America represents to people, as put forward by the government in the MCU, and what he represents to us in the real world, as put forward by Disney. It all starts getting a bit meta when you have Sam questioning if the world is ready for a black Cap when Disney already made that decision two years ago. 

Anyway, strongest episode of the series for me. It’s just a shame they felt the need for the action focused last two episodes.

So the woman who approached Walker; was the dramatic intro because of the actress, or because we were supposed to have already met her in Black Widow?

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7 hours ago, polishgenius said:

But my overall point is still that it makes no sense that the Wakandans would hand him over to (a) a US force that (2) is specifically about superhuman containment or Sokovia-Accords breakers.

He's demonstrated that he needs an extreme level of containment by escaping from his previous prison, and it makes sense that the Wakandans wouldn't want to host him themselves. We know the Raft has previously hosted multiple individuals with no inherent powers (without their tech they're just regular humans). It does feel a bit strange, but it's not totally crazy.

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Quote

The weird thing is, there doesn’t really seem to be that much daylight between what Captain America represents to people, as put forward by the government in the MCU, and what he represents to us in the real world, as put forward by Disney. It all starts getting a bit meta when you have Sam questioning if the world is ready for a black Cap when Disney already made that decision two years ago. 

Yeah that’s the slightly jarring nature of those comments. Isaiah is telling us that the world isn’t ready for a black Captain America, but is that a meta comment? Is Isiah correct about that concerning this universe or is it just his opinion and bias?

If Disney is trying to make a point it seems a little flat given that it’s been obvious Sam will be the next cap for a while and there isn’t really any controversy about it. Most reaction I’ve seen is ‘yup, that makes sense’.

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48 minutes ago, felice said:

He's demonstrated that he needs an extreme level of containment by escaping from his previous prison, and it makes sense that the Wakandans wouldn't want to host him themselves.

 

I mean Bucky essentially let him out. I guess the guards don't necessarily need to know that, but I also feel like Wakandan prison tech >> the Americans.

I guess you could argue they wouldn't want to do it themselves but given their level of clearly personal investment in seeing him to justice, I ain't convinced.


It's not a big deal or anything, if it allows Thunderbolts I'm all for, it was just a lil niggle to me.

 

 

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Also to complete the ‘tame TV tie-in’s’ theme’ Jessica Jones mother was supposed to be headed to the Raft (or had been there ... can’t remember).

 

Trish too right?

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2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

The weird thing is, there doesn’t really seem to be that much daylight between what Captain America represents to people, as put forward by the government in the MCU, and what he represents to us in the real world, as put forward by Disney. It all starts getting a bit meta when you have Sam questioning if the world is ready for a black Cap when Disney already made that decision two years ago. 

I disagree that there's not much between a comics character and a real living emblem of America.

Marvel made Sam Cap in the comics a couple of years ago, yes. And my God, the endless whining about ZOMG how very dare Marvel insert their SJW-pandering politics into comics which as we all know are completely poltics-free escapism, particularly Captain America which has never featured any politics at all. It was all over the net, comics sites, Twitter, YouTube, the ComicsGaters would not shut up about it.

But as bad as that was, we only have to look at what happened when a black man became President...

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

So the woman who approached Walker; was the dramatic intro because of the actress, or because we were supposed to have already met her in Black Widow?

The latter, I understand.

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18 hours ago, DMC said:

My favorite aspect of the ep was Bucky apologizing to Sam for being a dick and recognizing that both he and Steve could never know what taking up the shield would mean to Sam.  And that was after the Isaiah scene.  So, we'll see.

Yeah, I liked that too, even if it was a bit South Park. 

Still, I feel that Isaiah got short shrift here. That apparently the answer was that with all his sacrifices - 30 years in prison, effective solitary, medical experiments, erasure from the world - he should still just get right back up and fight again, and somehow Sam is better for doing that when he didn't. 

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Again, that is just a weird takeaway to have from that scene. Nobody said Isaiah should just get right back up and fight again. Sam intends to take up the fight, but Sam hasn't had the losses and the abuse that Isaiah has suffered, and Sam is completely understanding and respectful of Isaiah's desire to remain in hiding.

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Yeah Kalbear you appear to be saying that, having shown his perspective, the show was obligated to take it as the only way for a black man to see things. I suppose you could argue that it would have landed better if the speech and the eventual taking up of the shield were in separate episodes and Sam, and the audience, had longer to stew on it, but beyond that there's not an awful lot the show could have done to bring that perspective into it yet still end up with Sam as the Cap.

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9 minutes ago, mormont said:

Again, that is just a weird takeaway to have from that scene. Nobody said Isaiah should just get right back up and fight again. Sam intends to take up the fight, but Sam hasn't had the losses and the abuse that Isaiah has suffered, and Sam is completely understanding and respectful of Isaiah's desire to remain in hiding.

It's not just Isaiah's desire to remain in hiding; Isaiah does not want black people to take up that shield because it is a betrayal of him and in his mind every other black man. And Sam is absolutely contradicting that viewpoint by taking up the shield. Imagine what Isaiah's reaction to seeing Sam as Cap would be. How angry he would be, how injust it is. 

Basically, Isaiah is used as a way to give Sam's choice of not doing it at first some heft, but it's then ignored again.

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah Kalbear you appear to be saying that, having shown his perspective, the show was obligated to take it as the only way for a black man to see things. I suppose you could argue that it would have landed better if the speech and the eventual taking up of the shield were in separate episodes and Sam, and the audience, had longer to stew on it, but beyond that there's not an awful lot the show could have done to bring that perspective into it yet still end up with Sam as the Cap.

I mean, there's one possibility right there - Sam emphatically does NOT take up the shield and become Captain America, especially knowing what he does now. Remember, Sam refused the shield before he met Isaiah - and now after hearing in detail all the shit he went through, he changes his mind because his sister tells him to keep fighting? 

Or they write it so that Isaiah is convinced to get justice and get that closure that Sam in the very next scene advocates that Bucky work towards with the people that he's wronged. Like right there - making it so that Sam takes the shield as a way to give Isaiah more of a voice and right those wrongs instead of going and punching Batroc and flag smashers? That would have landed a lot better to me as well, because again it's about Isaiah more.

Mostly, I'm arguing that if you're going to have Isaiah giving the perspective of someone who was abused for decades by the same government that Sam now wants to represent in the most prestigious way Sam's reaction to it sucks. If you want Sam to struggle with his decision before becoming Cap there are a lot of ways to do it that don't involve a super version of the Tuskegee Airmen. There's nothing requiring that to be in there. But if you're going to put that in there, you need to let it land and you need to have it have some real impact - and Sam hearing that story and doing the exact opposite thing is not giving that any impact at all. 

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Is it fair to say that no self respecting black man would want to be CA in its current capacity, as a stadium mounting, fist pumping, marching band leading entertainment icon? I doubt very much that’s going to be Sam’s version. There’s already going to be a significant compromise between the two perspectives.

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